The Exchanges

Q What did you find when you dove into research on communication?

A So the biggest thing that I found is that we are living through this golden age. Because of advances in neural imaging and data collection, we understand what happens inside people's heads when they communicate like never before. And for me, the pattern that I fell into with my wife that led me to this was, I would come home from work after a long day, and I'd complain about my day to her, and she would very reasonably offer a Like, why don't you take your boss out to lunch, and you guys can get to know each other better. And instead of being able to hear what she was saying, I would get even more upset. And I would say, you're supposed to be on my side. Why aren't you outraged on my behalf? And then she would get upset that I was attacking her. I think everyone literally in a relationship has had this experience. So I went to researchers and I said, what's going on here? Why does this pattern happen again and again? And they said, well, look, here's one of the big things that we've discovered. We tend to think of a discussion as being about one thing. We're talking about our day or our kids' grades or where to go on vacation next year. But actually, every discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations. And in general, those conversations tend to fall into one of three buckets. There's these practical conversations where we're talking about making plans or solving pr…

AI assessment note: “every discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations”

Q and you're asking a question, you're looping for understanding, but then at the same time, you mentioned reciprocating. There are times where, as you mentioned, someone asking you about where you went on vacation, just so I could tell you where I went on vacation, How do you figure out the balance between what's real reciprocation and what's just talking over someone so you can be talking and not listening?

A I think the right way to think about it is, are you trying to expand the spotlight on this person or are you trying to steal the spotlight for yourself? Reciprocation doesn't always mean talking about yourself. So if someone said to me, last week was really tough because my aunt passed away. The exact wrong way to reciprocate is to say, oh, I understand exactly what you mean. I had a dog that died seven years ago. It left me a wreck for a month. That doesn't feel like I'm reciprocating or I'm listening. That feels like I'm trying to steal the spotlight. But if I was to say, oh man, I know how hard that can be. Tell me about your aunt. What was she like? That's an act of reciprocation because I'm emoting. I'm showing them that I'm listening and that I want to learn more and that I understand that this person was important to them. So there are some times when talking about yourself is really powerful. You became a doctor for this reason. Interesting. I became a lawyer for a similar reason. That doesn't feel like I'm trying to steal the spotlight. It feels like I'm trying to relate to you to find this thing that we have in common. The truth of the matter is that the question you asked is a tough one because there is no perfect formula. That's really easy to apply, except to say what's really important in a conversation is authenticity. So if I'm authentically interested in you an…

AI assessment note: “are you trying to expand the spotlight on this person or are you trying to steal”

Q I'd love to bridge back to say your writing in this book and talk about some of the applications in a business. So you mentioned the Netflix example. How does a company go about addressing any sensitive subject in a way that allows people to communicate with each other?

A So I think the first thing you have to do is you have to be really transparent about what the goals of the conversation are and what the conversation is about. If you've had some controversy over race within your company and you come in and you say, well, I don't want to talk about race, but let's just talk about how we feel about each other. Everyone's going to see through that. You need to be upfront, but then you also need to be able to say, look, this conversation is going to be awkward, and that's okay. Actually, the awkwardness is part of the reason why we're having the conversation. And by the way, I'm probably going to say the wrong thing, and I'm going to ask you to forgive me, because in the gap between my brain and my lips, something might get screwed up, and I might say something in a way that sounds offensive to you, And I apologize in advance, and I promise if you say something offensive to me, I will forgive you for it. I'll let you know. I don't like how you phrased that, but I assume you're not trying to be offensive. And these two things, acknowledging that the conversation can be difficult, acknowledging in advance that we're probably going to say the wrong thing, those are really, really powerful. And the third most important thing is they emphasize that everyone has a seat at this table and everyone belongs here. One of the things that happens, for instance…

AI assessment note: “you have to be really transparent about what the goals of the conversation are”

Q How do you think about what you've learned in the context of a Cialdini's influence or the ways that you understand the conversation, but there are these tools, anchoring, that help you influence somebody else?

A I think the Chalgenius stuff is really useful and important, and it's important to know about. The truth is, oftentimes in today's world, we try and look at things like anchoring as this magical thing that if I just anchor at the right place, I'm going to get you to do something that's not in your own self-interest, but is in my interest. That never actually happens. If I walk in to buy a car and they're like, here's a 100,000 dollar car, and then by comparison, here's your car that's only 60,000 dollars, I'm not going to be like, oh, that's so cheap. I'm gonna be like, 60,000 dollars is still a lot of money. I'm not an idiot. Neither is anyone else. So I think that Cialdini's principles are really important in the context of authentic conversations. Take investment managers. I know that having talked to a number of managers, having friends who are managers, many managers treat the conversation with clients as if it's a practical conversation. Here's five solutions to the problem that you have. But for the client, and you know this better than I do, For the client, it's often an emotional conversation. When I talk about money, I'm worried about my future. I have all these anxieties. I feel stupid. I feel like everyone else knows the answer and that I'm behind the curve. So the investment manager can certainly use the Caldini principles. He can try and nudge you one way or the o…

AI assessment note: “Cialdini's principles are really important in the context of authentic conversations.”

Q How do you think about delivering bad news? It could be in the business context of performance review or just a tough conversation that you know has to happen.

A So let's take performance review, because that's a great example. Again, the first question is, do you want this to be a conversation? Or do you want to impart some news to someone and then have the conversation later? Oftentimes when we're doing a performance review, we think that we want to have a conversation, but we actually don't. We want to say, look, here are some problems with your performance. Here's some stuff that you need to work on, but we're not looking for them to justify it. We're not looking for them to explain. We're not trying to understand. We're trying to give them some news that they need. And then down the road, we might have a conversation. We might say, look, I want you to take this home and tomorrow let's get together. And I want to talk through, I want to hear your thoughts on these criticisms or these Suggestions and what you think I can be doing better to help you. So the first thing to figure out is, do you want a conversation or do you want to simply deliver some news to someone and have the conversation later? Let's say you do want to have the conversation though. The same principles apply. We need to start this by saying, look, this can be awkward and I might say the wrong thing, but here's my goal. My goal is to help you succeed at this firm. So when I give you this feedback, It is not because I think you're dumb. It is not because I think you'…

AI assessment note: “the first question is, do you want this to be a conversation?”

Q So what became the focus of your journalistic work?

A So I always write about business. I really like writing about business. I like stories about business. Business is something that all of us do, and I think it touches our lives in a very visceral way. So a lot of My journalism for the New York Times, now for the New Yorker, is rooted in trying to understand commerce and what capitalism means today. When I started writing books, though, one of the things I discovered is that I can take those same tools, and I can apply them to topics that are much more focused on the types of questions that I just had about my life. A decade ago, I wrote this book called The Power of Habit, about the science of habit formation, and it really started with me saying, if I'm so smart, and I have all these fancy degrees, why is it so hard for me to go running in the morning? What am I doing wrong that it's hard for me to eat healthily? So I just wanted to understand, what do we know about the neurology of habit formation? And out of that grew this book. And Similarly, with this book, Super Communicators, it really started with me recognizing that although I was good at a number of things, I was not as good at communication as I wanted to be, and that was surprising because I'm a professional communicator. I would get in these dumb fights with my wife, or they made me a manager at the New York Times, and I was good at everything except the communicat…

AI assessment note: “So I always write about business. I really like writing about business.”

Q What are some of those core principles that are super communicators?

A One of the big ones is asking questions and asking the right questions, so people who are consistent super communicators, they tend to ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person, and I mentioned that some questions matter more than others, and within psychology, these are known as deep questions, and a deep question is something that asks about Our values, our beliefs, our experiences. And that can sound intimidating, but it's actually as simple as if you meet someone and you ask them, where do you live? And they say, oh, I live in the Heights. And you say, why'd you decide to move up there? Or what do you love about that neighborhood? Or you meet someone and you say, oh, what do you do for a living? They say, I'm a doctor. The most natural question is to say, oh, where do you practice medicine? But if instead you ask, oh, what made you decide to go to medical school? Those are deep questions. Because what they do is they invite the other person to talk about their experiences and their values. And they don't seem like overly intimate questions. They don't seem like weird questions to ask. But when we ask deep questions, what it does is it gives someone else a chance to tell us who they really are. And if we listen to what they're saying, we can figure out what mindset they're in, what conversation they want to have. But equally, when we reciprocate that, when w…

AI assessment note: “One of the big ones is asking questions and asking the right questions”

Q If you take those three principles and then apply them back to this three types of conversations, someone thinking a little bit more about what's happening in the conversation, you use the example with your wife of someone's sharing something emotionally, you're trying to give a practical solution, and that doesn't go well. When do those other three types come into conflict?

A Well, they always come into conflict when we're not having the same kind of conversation. So in super communicators in the book, there's a story about Netflix and this controversy that they had at Netflix over race. And one of the things that they found is that when some people came into conversations about race within the company, which was a very polarized conversation, one of the executives had used the N word in a meeting and it had just set off this firestorm that lasted for months. Some people came to it as a very practical conversation. Oh, here's where it's appropriate to use the N-word, and here's where it's not appropriate to use the N-word. And other people were coming to the conversation saying, no, this is really emotional for me. When I hear that word, it makes me feel like I don't belong here. It's inherently offensive. There's never a right time to use it. And I think what's important there is it's not like either of those conversations were wrong. It's not like either of those conversations actually had to be in conflict with each other. It's that if two people are having those conversations at the same time with each other, it's almost impossible for them to communicate. Because one person is saying, look, this matters to me is a really emotional issue. It might even be a social conversation. This is about how I relate to the company. This is about the social …

AI assessment note: “they always come into conflict when we're not having the same kind of conversation.”

Q How about an oppositional conversation? So you could think about a business negotiation. You could think about one person pitching another as an investment manager, pitching a prospective client. How does it work in those contexts?

A So the first thing to figure out is, is this actually a conversation? Because in a negotiation, it might not be a conversation. In a negotiation, it might be that I want to get you to reveal some information and I'm going to use that information to beat you over the head. So that's not necessarily a conversation. But in most negotiations or in most pitches, it should be a conversation. What we know is that when it becomes a conversation, it's much more successful. And what's really important in those situations is to enter the conversation with the right goal. And the goal is not to win the negotiation. It's not to convince the other person that they're wrong and you're right. It's not even to sell the product. The goal is to understand what the other person is trying to tell you and to speak in such a way that they understand you. Persuasion is a secondary tactic to communication, and unless you get the basic of communication down right, the persuasion is probably not going to work. So I'm sure you've been in this experience where some investment manager comes in and they're like, I got five deals for you, and they're all amazing, and the client's like, whatever, versus the great investment manager who comes in and is like, tell me what your goals are. Tell me what you're worried about. Tell me how you see the world. Tell me what you want to know about. And then says, you ment…

AI assessment note: “The goal is to understand what the other person is trying to tell you”

Q gain a decided advantage. That's why customers call it miraculous, game-changing, and an awakening. If that's not how you would describe your investment management tech, request a demo at ridgeline.ai. And now back to the show. What are some of the other ways that you've learned as you're entering into a conversation to set the table so that you're more likely to connect with the people engaged in that conversation?

A It's a good question. I think I spent a lot of time asking questions. So this is like an interview. This is a little bit different from a conversation because a conversation is really about a back and forth. And if you try and interview someone in a conversation, it can feel like an interrogation. It doesn't feel good. But I think that one of the things I do is I try and ask questions and then I try and listen to For what the person is telling me about what conversation they want to have. I mentioned that there's a story about this CIA officer trying to recruit an overseas asset. And he's been trying for months and nothing works. And this woman basically says, I'm never going to work for you. She's completely freaked out talking to him. And then he goes to dinner with her and she's just glum the entire dinner. And he keeps trying to cheer her up. He keeps telling her funny stories or reminiscing about times they went sightseeing together, trying to like get up her emotions. And after a while, he's like, what am I doing? I'm not matching her. I'm basically ignoring everything she's telling me about how glum she feels that she has to go home next week. So instead, what he does is he just becomes honest, and he says, look, you seem down. I feel down, too, because I've been here a year, and I've not recruited anyone, and I think I'm going to get fired. This is not him trying to man…

AI assessment note: “I try and ask questions and then I try and listen”

Q How long do you think it took as you're doing this research, just for you individually, to go from wherever you were before the research to a place where you feel like you're better at being a super communicator?

A Oh, almost immediately. Communication is Homo sapiens' superpower. It's the thing that has allowed our species to succeed far beyond every other species. So as a result, our brains have evolved to be really, really good at communication, and in particular, to build new communication habits very, very quickly. So this thing that I mentioned, looping for understanding, were these three steps. The first time you do it, it can feel a little bit awkward, but The third time you do it, you don't even notice you're doing it. It's completely natural because our brain takes these activities and it makes it into habits very, very quickly. So it does not take a long time to get a lot better at communication. Once you understand how communication functions, oftentimes when people are bad at communication, it is not because the skills are hard. It's because they don't understand that there are skills in the first place.

AI assessment note: “Oh, almost immediately. Communication is Homo sapiens' superpower.”

Q How do you think about bringing that online and so much communication in that context of a business where you are trying to have conversations, but they're coming through the screen instead of face to face?

A So I think the key there is just to remind yourself that different kinds of communication have different rules. So certainly giving someone performance review over a text message would be a terrible idea. And all of us know that we recognize that. And it's not because texting is bad. It's because texting has certain rules associated with it. That make it really hard for us to give sensitive feedback that way. One of my favorite examples of this is that about a hundred years ago, when telephones first became popular, there were all these papers that said, oh, no one will ever have a real conversation on the telephone. Because up to that point, all conversations had happened face to face. And what's interesting is they were exactly right. If you look at transcripts of early telephone conversations, people didn't know how to use them. They used them as telegrams. They would call up and they would give a grocery order and then hang up right away. People did not know how to have conversations. Now, by the time we were teenagers, we could talk for like seven hours a night on the telephone, and they were the most meaningful conversations of our lives. And that's because we learned to use telephones. And we actually do things differently on a telephone without realizing it. When you're on a phone, you tend to over enunciate your words a little bit. Because you almost subconsciously rea…

AI assessment note: “the key there is just to remind yourself that different kinds of communication have different rules”