The Exchanges

Q life, completely redefined your life, then launched like, you know, a podcast platform company now called Boise Changes, what we're going to talk about, but that you say things like, I loved the pain and the pain loved me back. I wanted to start off by asking you, what do you mean by that? And when did you start turning pain into your actual teacher as opposed to your tormentor?

A That's a great question. I mean, first of all, thank you for having me. It's delightful to meet you and I'm very happy to be here. I think pain became my teacher very early in my life. Um, I was a pretty awkward adolescent kid who struggled to make friends. Was unsure about how to connect and always felt constitutionally different from my peers, which made me introverted and shy and reluctant to place myself in social situations. And I also was somebody like a young kid who showed zero promise in terms of athletic prowess. Like I, I can't hit a ball. I can't You know, kick a soccer ball, like anything with eye hand coordination, I've always been a disaster. So I was the last kid picked for kickball. I was bullied at the bus stop, like all the kind of, you know, stuff that is visited upon an awkward young child. But the one thing that I did have a little bit of innate talent and prowess in was in the swimming pool, as it As a young kid, like I love being on the summer swim team and, uh, and I was actually quite good at that. And there was a decision that I made around 1314 years old that I wanted to really invest in that. And I found myself as part of a club team in Washington, DC, where suddenly I was surrounded by very talented young athletes who had national age group records or had qualified for the Olympic trials. Uh, and I realized immediately that the talent that I though…

AI assessment note: “I think pain became my teacher very early in my life.”

Q yours, and so I asked him, what would you, what do you want to know? What would you ask Rich? And one of them said, ask him about Inventory, what it is, but maybe even more than that today. Do you think people who are not traditionally addicted could use or should use inventory in their day-to-day lives in some way? Because you still do it to this day, right?

A Yeah, absolutely. I mean, part and parcel of like any twelve-step program are the 12 steps, and these programs are shrouded in mystery, you know, they're anonymous for a reason. Um, but The blueprint and the tools and the steps I think are incredibly powerful for up-leveling your life and for self-understanding that anybody can benefit from doing. And one of the fundamental tools, which is step four, is doing a fearless moral inventory. And the process of doing that is basically going through your life and writing down every single person, institution, Uh, that, that you have a resentment towards, like, who, who, who are all, go through your entire life. Who are the people you're, you resent? And then go do a fear inventory. What are all the things you're afraid of? And then do a sexual inventory. Go through all of your relationships and sexual encounters and try to identify where you were selfish, self-seeking, and not compassionate, right? And if you're morally rigorous and completely honest in doing this, What you will discover is that patterns emerge and those patterns reveal in an objective sense where your character defects lie. And so you will see like, oh my goodness, when I, I, I, all these people that I resent, like my side of the street is that I did this. Like, how did you contribute to that resentment? And what can you, um, when I look at the relationships that I'v…

AI assessment note: “anybody can benefit from doing. And one of the fundamental tools, which is step four”

Q I, I really didn't know how to be supportive and probably was not that supportive, um, during it. And you had some really incredible things that you mentioned about what it's like to stand with people who are Uh, struggling with a severe addiction. Maybe one thing I want to start with is you said addiction solved a problem for people, so remember that. What do you mean by that?

A When we think about addiction, we think about the substance or the behavior, whether it's gambling, fentanyl, alcohol, cocaine, heroin, choose your poison. Um, we, we contemplate addiction in the context of the substance being the enemy. And I think it's important to understand that the substance or the behavior is actually the solution to the problem. The problem resides within the individual. It is a sense of dis-ease with oneself, a sense that your emotions and your, your sort of disposition is so uncomfortable that you are literally willing to go to the ends of the earth to feel differently. And the path to feeling differently can be found in one of these substances. It can be found in Shopping, in relationships, in gambling, in porn, in sex, you name it. Like anything to take you out of your state and allow you to numb that emotional dis-ease with something external is the very nature of addiction. And I think when you are struggling to Feel compassionate towards someone who suffers. It's important to disassociate the behavior from the individual because this compulsion and this obsession is so powerful. It overrides every instinct within that person around self-preservation or ethical behavior, right? And they're acting, uh, in opposite to who they are because that craving, that demand That discomfort is so powerful. That it's driving that unhealthy behavior pattern. Um, …

AI assessment note: “the substance or the behavior is actually the solution to the problem.”

Q what you guys have done, and I'm excited for the next venture, and I think it's Going to be really cool. I'm going to make sure to subscribe. Um, the last thing I wanted to leave us with today basically was, um, you now have a relationship for a really long time, a couple of kids, you know, success, the podcast, everything. Do you, do you think you found happiness?

A It's so interesting that you asked me that right now. Um, I am happy that there are, there are, uh, many barriers to my happiness that remain, and I think that it could be happier. Um, I, uh, I still fall prey to workaholism. Um, I still delude myself that the happiness that I lack is on the other side of the next accomplishment or milestone in my career. Despite all evidence to the contrary, and a million guests on my podcast, uh, disabusing me of that notion, it's amazing how persistent, uh, that, that, that, that is in, in, in, in the mind. With this phase of my career, I am really intent upon doing the things that I know will drive greater happiness in my life, and those things are my relationship with my wife, my relationship with my kids, and Rekindling or reinvesting in my friendships that get shoved to the side because we're so busy and on deadline and too many things are happening. Um, and I can tell you the older you get, you know, the phone gets heavier when, uh, the prospect of calling up that buddy that you haven't talked to in, you know, 15 or 20 years, uh, and then investing in more experiences, you know, trying to Basically what I'm saying is trying to cultivate greater connection with other human beings, because I like to be left alone. I'm an introvert. I want to just create in a dark room and not have anybody bother me. And I'm perfectly content until I'm not…

AI assessment note: “I am happy that there are, there are, uh, many barriers to my happiness”

Q Do you think that bullying and getting pissed picked last for kickball and whether that's as a kid, even, or the same sort of parallels as an adult, do you think that was actually good for you in some ways?

A You know, at the conference the other night, they asked me if I could give advice to a younger version of myself, what would it be? And, you know, the joke that I always tell, cause I get asked that question a lot is like, Just stop drinking. First of all, like this is not working for you. Um, but the truth of the matter is that I don't know that I would change anything because all of those experiences were formative and have produced the individual that I am today. Um, and I lived this amazing life and I'm incredibly grateful and privileged, but it's a result of having to weather Obstacles and, you know, go to war with myself and learn how to develop a level of equanimity in the face of crisis or, you know, financial dismantling and all these other kind of things that I've experienced from the low lows and being a gutter alcoholic to being the head of a household with four kids and a mortgage and being unable to pay my bills. Like I've gone through a lot and I've made various transformations along the way. But I don't know what life would look like had I been spared those.

AI assessment note: “all of those experiences were formative and have produced the individual that I am today”

Q And do you think more people learn more by just looking at N words?

A I can only answer for myself. Um, I think that's probably a very individual thing. Um, I did what I needed to do. Uh, and I probably could have used some good mentors. Like, I went through many years of not really having mentors, and actually the mentors that I had throughout my twenties and thirties were bad mentors, weren't good mentors. And so I needed to go deep within myself, I think, in order to figure a few things out. So it's not for me to say that that's how any, everybody else should do it. Um, and one of the things you've learned in recovery is like, you don't give advice, you share your experience. And so I'm very reticent to ever be directly looking to camera and telling people what they should or they shouldn't do. Like, I'm not here to take your inventory or tell you to do this and not this. Like, I'm here to share my experience.

AI assessment note: “I can only answer for myself. Um, I think that's probably a very individual thing.”