The Exchanges

Q And, um, and I'm wondering, you think that there is maybe this one skill or even a game that can help women break out Of that. You want to talk about what it is?

A I've been a quiet person for, um, 24 years I was a quiet person, until I learned the game of poker. And I didn't, I didn't necessarily have to be out there for my, my, our, our companies, and, but I have been trying to help women accomplish more, what they want to do, which it, for me, it was clearly taking risk around money. Was like the biggest inhibitor, and when I saw poker, it was the closest thing I've seen to the training I got as an options trader, right? Because people aren't just going to become options traders. First of all, there's not that many in the world, men or women, and I'm going to go study options trading is, is unrealistic, I think. Playing a card game, however, is not, and the irony of the whole thing is, you know, our firm is filled with Poker players. Um, in the financial world, you've, you see them all the time. Um, and I just ignored the game because only the guys were playing. First of all, I thought it was a waste of time. And Little did I know it's, there's a little secret. They've been doing it for literally hundreds of years. And so I'll just tell the backstory real quick. So my daughter was 14 at the time. So it was in 2019 playing a tennis match, losing her dad was a college, um, athlete frustrated. She's losing to someone. She looks like she should be able to beat and comes home and sort of chirps. You know, to me, because he doesn't want to, …

AI assessment note: “until I learned the game of poker.”

Q entrepreneur to understand what's happening in the room around you. Like context is super important, not only in, um, you know, running a business, but let's just say there's somebody listening and they want to get promoted or They want to do better in their job, or they want somebody to take them more seriously. What can, what can poker tell us about reading the room in life? What cues?

A Yes. This one I love only because it's so, so relevant. The context, right? We talked about levels of thinking. So if you're just thinking about your cards, They might get lucky. You have to be thinking about the other cards at the table. Then you have to think about what they're thinking about your cards, right? So if I'm sitting across from someone and, and I want something to happen, I want more money. I want a different position. I want a different challenge. I want something. I have to think about what they're thinking. And I have to think about what they're thinking about. You know, it was my boss, the rest of my team. I have to think about what they're thinking about. What they, they owe to their boss, right? I have to set, literally set the table in, in, you know, full color as opposed to black and white, and that's where we get messed up. It's like, I would love to give you more money, but did you hear, were you at that meeting over there? It's probably not a good time. You know, it's just, there's some things that are wildly simple, and people are just so adamant. They're like, they've been so frustrated, and they come in, and they just want A, B, and C, and it, And because they're not addressing the context. That's why when you sit at a poker table and, and you start to learn, right? And now you're like, oh, I'm going to play with my family. Oh, I'm going to play wit…

AI assessment note: “We talked about levels of thinking. So if you're just thinking about your cards”

Q So what you said, you do a lot of experiments at peak sinks. What are some experiments you do with your employees or to determine strategies? Because it does seem like you're a very systems oriented thinker.

A Yeah, we are. Well, we like to, to know what is working. It's really hard to discern, um, you know, uh, what, what actually it is. I'll give you this, this is a fun example. Um, so my co-founder grew up playing hockey. Six years in, we got married as an FYI. So I know him very well. And, um, but always interested in The NHL, and so when the opportunity was there to potentially, you know, be part of a team, we were looking at it. He, at the time, so let's call it, you know, early 2000, there were like six guys talking about hockey statistics on the internet, you know, and so, and he was one of them, but they're all really bright, and, uh, we said, well, what if we took all of those people and we just brought them in as a class? And is there something about their approach, the way they think, um, that might make a different type of options trader? We did that with poker players many years ago, before I knew poker. Um, we'd done that with taking the smartest people that we could, that would possibly come to us. Um, that was a complete fail, by the way. But anyway, so back to our hockey people. So they came on and they were okay. They weren't great. Traders, but they were there working on, you know, hockey analytics, so if indeed we ever had a team or not. Anyway, they ended up leaving, going to hockey teams, and, um, we were talking about this the other day, which is why I was thi…

AI assessment note: “what if we took all of those people and we just brought them in”

Q And then what's the next step? If it's take a lot of risks, structure the risks, and then take bigger risks?

A I think the next step is, um, you know, again, there's this, this idea of risk management that I'm doing. How am I Um, evaluating my doing. And you need time to go by. We don't know if a trader is going to be great at their job or not for a while. Just like you can go and be a beginner poker player and be a pro. You can. That, that happens, you know. And so, um, you need enough time to go by and then some assessment of that That data to start to tell a story. It's like playing a hand versus playing, you know, an entire game of poker. That's where the, the hands add up to the game and hopefully, you know, the game, you know, that your table, then your movie, it's like more like a tournament, right? Then I'm moving on to the next table and I'm moving on to the next table. So along the way is, uh, and maybe it's, you know, The context switching happens so much as you're taking risk. You open yourself, like your aperture opens up so much that your, um, your regrouping becomes more important, not less important. Like as we take more risk in AI, I make sure we step back and say, okay, is that really what we meant to do? Because all of a sudden we're in, we're in so deep, you know, it's the same thing, you know, like I'm on the turn, I'm on that, that, that, That fourth card that comes out on the table, and I've got a lot of money in this thing. You know, the one thing as a trader you…

AI assessment note: “the next step is, um, you know, again, there's this, this idea of risk management”

Q this podcast a way for you to steal all my rich and successful friends so that your life can be even better every single day. Do you think you can teach people to love the game like that? Like to become obsessed with just playing, whether the game's business or poker or life? And if so, how do you, how do you teach yourself to love hard things in business?

A So I think there has to be some inherent like desire that starts it. Can you put fuel on the fire? Absolutely. I think part of the way to do that is be surrounded by people who are amazing, right? Amazing in whatever way. So like, we really, we yearn for, you know, in the arts, right? When we, you know, fashion, whatever it is, like, Somebody, you know, Matt's some energy company in the middle of Utah in the middle of nowhere the other day, just cause we're so curious. And so I think that curiosity builds, um, you know, sort of the awe of being a human, what other humans are capable of doing. And, and we so enjoy watching that. People enjoy, you know, hearing Financial stuff from us, especially in Austin, which has been really funny. They're like, we don't know you people down here.

AI assessment note: “I think part of the way to do that is be surrounded by people”

Q What does that feel like to lose tens of millions of dollars in seconds?

A When it first happened, the very first time it happened that way, that was rough, right? Was all that stuff leading up to this, you know, fantasy. So, a lot of second Guessing. But you get better and from it, and you obviously don't want to do that again. Um, but I literally just yesterday, right? So we've been doing Peak Six for 28 years now, and, um, there's always a situation in the market, right? It's, it's why the smartest actually don't win. Long-term capital management is a great story for people to read about, and Uh, they were the smartest and they didn't win. So being humble about when things are going well and acknowledging what was luck, what was skill, and then recognizing a situation where That same thing. It's going to happen again. What am I going to do then when it does? I just have to assume it's going to happen. I think that is the, so now how do I get comfortable? Because it, you know, the first losses weren't that big, obviously.

AI assessment note: “When it first happened, the very first time it happened that way, that was rough”