The Exchanges

Q Interesting. What do you think the difference in definition is between struggle and grind?

A I think struggle, struggle is quite like value, value neutral. Like you can struggle while you're at the gym. You can struggle in, I don't know, to make a breakthrough in your relationship, but like, it's a good thing. If you're doing an ayahuasca trip, you're struggling, but it's for the sake of something valuable. Whereas grind has those connotations of meaninglessness around it, where the thing that you're struggling for is not in fact the thing you want to be struggling for. And so, you know, parents will often say that raising kids is a struggle, but they wouldn't say raising kids is a grind, but you would say that like going to a boring corporate job is a grind rather than a struggle. So I think it's about what the end goal is and how purposeful it feels and how meaningful it feels.

AI assessment note: “struggle is quite like value neutral... Whereas grind has those connotations of meaninglessness”

Q thinking, you know, flash forward five or 10 years, do I like the person that I see that is in my current state, uh, that I hope to be in? So that's really interesting. Another question I wanted to ask you is, you know, when you Work. Do you feel like you have to have purpose beyond joy in it? Like is joy enough of a purpose in your work?

A It is for the short term, but not for the long term. So I get, I get a lot of joy out of watching out of playing video games, for example, but it doesn't feel that like meaningful or purposeful, uh, or fulfilling, even though it's joyful. Um, I get a lot of joy out of, I dunno, just Playing squash with like some friends or something like that. And again, it doesn't feel very purposeful, because I think purpose comes from working towards a goal that is sort of bigger than ourselves. Um, the most purposeful thing I ever did in my life was I directed the pantomime that we put on in my hospital many years ago. This was like getting all the medical students together, this big ensemble production of a hundred people. And we're doing this parody of Cinderella with like medical stuff and changing song lyrics to make them medical and things like that. And that was so fulfilling. And it was weird because it was taking up so much time while we were all in medical school and super busy. But they were like, it was a group of us. We were working together for this bigger cause cause it was like a production we were doing together. It was for charity. And I remember being so energized by that, even though it was hard work. And I have never done anything that's been more fulfilling than that. And I think this is why people enjoy like these sorts of acting productions and musicals and things, be…

AI assessment note: “It is for the short term, but not for the long term.”

Q remember the beginning, but they will remember the end, and if you want to be the one to prime your team to do more, then you want that to move forward. I've noticed a couple of things as being friends with you, that you integrate this into your life consistently. For instance, the mic check. Tell people what you do on a mic check. Does the internet know about this?

A Yeah, so when I'm doing a mic check, I will either sing or I'll recite lyrics from a song. So earlier today, you know, we were doing a mic check. I was like, somewhere over the rainbow, way up high, there's a land that I heard of once in a lullaby. Um, or before I'm filming a video, I'll either play some like energizing music in the background, or I'll grab the guitar, which is often next to my filming setup. And I'll just, I don't know, sing Budapest by George Ezra or something like that. And my team will just be looking at me being like, yep, there he goes again. But it's a good sign because it means I'm about to film a video and priming myself into that state of energy. You know, people like Tony Robbins do this before they go on stage. They like have a little trampoline, they jump around a bit. And And for people who are, you know, a bit cynical, like mostly I speak to Brits and they're all very cynical. It's like, what is this? But actually, you know, the state that you're in has an enormous impact on how you show up in your work and how you show up for the people around you.

AI assessment note: “when I'm doing a mic check, I will either sing or I'll recite lyrics”

Q So if you had to tell somebody one thing to take away from Feel Good Productivity, from Feel Good Productivity, or from Feel Good Business, what would it be? Like, if they were like, there's one thing they could go and do today.

A So the first chapter of the book, Feel Good Productivity, is about play. And There's a lot of stories of, like, famous Nobel Prize winning scientists and, you know, super successful entrepreneurs and athletes and stuff, where they say that the way they approach their work, it's as if they're playing. Now, this is often easier said than done, because especially if someone has a normal job where they don't particularly enjoy it, like, how, how do you really approach it with a sense of play? But one phrase that I find super helpful to remember comes from the philosopher Alan Watts. Where he says, be sincere. Don't be serious. Um, I imagine playing like a board game with someone, you know, it's, it's no fun playing with someone who takes it too seriously because they're like a stickler for the rules and just kind of driving the energy away. And like, it's, it's kind of a bit grim, but you also don't want to play a board game with someone who's completely uncaring. You don't want someone who's just like, oh, it's just, oh, who cares? It's just a game. Like, well, you know, that's, that's no fun either. You want someone who plays the board, the board game sincerely. They're sincerely trying to win. But at the same time, they recognize it's a game. And I find that for me, whenever I feel stressed with my work, when I feel anxious, when I feel overwhelmed, or anything like that, it's u…

AI assessment note: “Where he says, be sincere. Don't be serious.”

Q need to be sort of ground down. But at some point, when you know who you are, I think, then you get stuck in mimetic desire, other people's wants and needs. Um, how do you recalibrate when you have those moments where your calendar looks awful, or you hate what you're doing? A lot of times, it means you have to make a big change. Like, what do you do?

A Yeah, so for me personally, you know, I, I'm a business owner, and so I Like a big part of it is recognizing that I, I can in fact do whatever I want. And there's a great quote I came across the other day, which is that your life begins when you realize you can do whatever you want. And so, you know, for example, when, when, when I see stuff on my calendar, I'll, I'll, I'll occasionally speak to a friend about this and I'll be like, yeah, you know, you know, the calendar is looking pretty busy. I feel pretty stressed. And they'd be a bit surprised because most of my friends are not business owners. They'd be like, wait a minute. You know, I thought as a business owner, you can do whatever you want. I'm like, Damn. That's a good point. And it's almost like I have to remind myself or be reminded that actually the calendar is within my control. And recently I had like a family health emergency, uh, where I had to, I had to leave the country for a while. And in that context, I just canceled everything on the calendar and everyone was, was, was cool with it, obviously. And so I was in, I was in this new, in this new country, you know, dealing with this emergency with nothing on the calendar. And I realized, wow, if a health emergency comes up or something serious, of course I can drop everything. And just, and just do it. Similarly, you know, my mum was involved with this emergency …

AI assessment note: “remind myself or be reminded that actually the calendar is within my control”

Q So Ali, last time we saw each other, we were talking about struggle. And you were basically like, I don't know, do we have to struggle so hard? And you had some interesting frameworks. I wanted to dive in. What do you think? Do you think you have to struggle in business to be successful?

A Yeah. This is the thing that I've been, I've been reading a lot about and trying, trying, trying to really understand this because one narrative is that the whole Elon Musk says that starting a business is like chewing glass. And it's like, you've got to work through this pain and this grind. And there's this period of like time where start, like a lot of entrepreneurs would say that they get a lot of fulfillment out of running their business, but it's not particularly enjoyable. There's a lot of stuff you have to do that you don't particularly feel like. But the other side of the coin is, you know, I used to have a normal day job. I used to work as a doctor and I started my business as a way of getting freedom from that. I didn't want to have someone telling me what to do. I wanted to do the things I wanted to do and not the things I didn't want to do. And so for me, starting the business, the point of it was to buy my freedom from these obligations and to buy my, in a way, buy my freedom from the, from the grind. I'd say struggle is kind of different to grind. It is sort of being a doctor very much felt like a grind. I think struggle can be Can be a good thing if what comes out of it is, is positive. But I've been thinking a lot about how do we build businesses that also feel good rather than build businesses where we're sort of grinding really hard for the sake of some sort …

AI assessment note: “I've been thinking a lot about how do we build businesses that also feel good”