Jan 2, 2025 · 1h 9m · bigdeal
FBI Hostage Negotiator: The Art Of Negotiating To Get Everything You Want | Chris Voss
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Former FBI lead kidnapping negotiator Chris Voss joins host Codie Sanchez to break down the neurobiological principles of tactical empathy, deception detection, and nonjudgmental curiosity. Together, they outline actionable communication frameworks that transform high-stakes business negotiations, conflict resolution, and everyday interpersonal dynamics.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Codie holds 22.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Codie as informed peer 4.3 Guest teaching 6.0 Guest disagreement 0.6 Codie pushing back 0.1
speaking balance: gold is Codie, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 32:05 Voss rejects universal lie detection tells
Voss directly dismantles the common premise of body language tells, explaining that facial cues like frowning can simply mean gas rather than deceit.
Hardest push from Codie ▶ 44:25 Codie questions parental blame for psychopathyCodie presses Voss on the implications of his hypothesis, challenging whether parents are directly to blame if a child becomes a psychopath.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 6:55 Empathy decoupled from agreementVoss breaks down the fundamental misunderstanding of empathy, educating on how voicing opposing viewpoints is influence rather than endorsement.
Codie holds their own ▶ 53:50 Codie breaks down dealmaking vs negotiationCodie demonstrates business domain expertise by differentiating negotiation tactics from financial deal structuring and analyzing gendered behavioral trends across thousands of entrepreneurs.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Codie as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Codie pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Universal Human Emotions and Cultural Commonalities | 4 | 6 | 1 | 0 | Chris Voss outlines his hypothesis on core human emotions versus cultural feeling terms, dismissing multiculture experts' overcomplications. Codie Sanchez contributes by citing medical studies on touch and premature infant survival to support Voss's points on attachment. | |
| Understanding Tactical Empathy Versus Sympathy | 5 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Voss defines tactical empathy as proactive observation rather than sympathy or agreement, illustrating with Israeli-Palestinian examples. Codie shares her reporting experience interviewing young cartel members in northern Mexico, probing how to speak with people whose actions you despise. | |
| Unlocking Guarded People with Intentional Questions | 3 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Voss recounts how pure curiosity disarms guarded interlocutors, illustrating with an interview anecdote about tracing family origins. Codie listens attentively and prompts him to explain how genuine curiosity overrides defenses. | |
| Generational Shifts in Communication and Soft Skills | 4 | 5 | 1 | 0 | Codie asks whether asynchronous digital habits make younger generations worse at communication. Voss validates the premise while emphasizing that top performers across all generations eagerly adopt emotional intelligence once exposed to it. | |
| Negotiating with Hostage Takers and Terrorists | 4 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Codie asks Voss about his internal psychological process when negotiating with terrorists and violent kidnappers. Voss shares his pitch to UAE counter-terrorism officials, demonstrating that matching an opponent's internal narrative creates immediate leverage. | |
| The Accusation Audit and Human Fairness | 5 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Voss explains accusation audits and how human beings have an ingrained biological wiring for fairness. Codie enriches the concept by noting that societal survival depends on cooperative fairness rather than pure Machiavellian self-interest. | |
| The Strategic Value of Radical Honesty | 4 | 6 | 1 | 0 | Voss details why lying is an unsustainable long-term strategy, recounting an Egyptian business case where radical honesty yielded a larger contract. Codie observes how modern political discourse normalizes dishonesty. | |
| Lie Detection Baselines and Polygraph Mechanics | 4 | 7 | 2 | 0 | Voss refutes the concept of universal 'tells', explaining that deception detection relies strictly on establishing personal behavioral baselines like skilled polygraph operators. Codie asks clarifying questions on polygraph fallibility and operator variance. | |
| Inconsistent Rules and the Genesis of Psychopathy | 5 | 6 | 1 | 1 | Codie asks Voss to elaborate on how inconsistent parenting and rulelessness shape psychopathy, questioning if modern institutional decline breeds more psychopaths. Voss differentiates organized religion from internal spirituality and highlights evolving detection rates. | |
| Deep Curiosity as Fundamental Optimism for Humanity | 5 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Codie and Voss bond over their shared fascination with engaging people holding extreme or alien viewpoints. Voss attributes this to deep-seated optimism and foundational early childhood wiring. | |
| Accountability, Brain Science, and Prison Transformation | 4 | 6 | 1 | 1 | Codie asks whether psychopathy can be reversed and how one verifies genuine transformation. Voss shares the case of transformed prison leader Andre Norman, distinguishing between parental fault and personal accountability. | |
| Mastering Voice Tone and Neurochemical Communication | 4 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Codie brings up research indicating that 38% of communication effectiveness stems from vocal tone. Voss explains the mechanics of tone as neurochemical triggers, referencing late-night FM DJ voice techniques and hypnotherapy. | |
| Evolving Gender Dynamics in Modern Business Negotiation | 6 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Codie explains observed dealmaking disparities between men and women in her business community, sharing her past tendency to adopt masculine traits. Voss agrees and details how women leveraging soft skills alongside assertion outperform traditional aggressive styles. | |
| Cultivating Emotional Intelligence Through Daily Cold Reads | 4 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Codie references salary data showing emotional intelligence out-earns pure IQ. Voss explains his daily practice of conducting cold reads on airport employees and strangers to keep EQ sharp. | |
| Leveraging Negotiator Archetypes for Team Communication | 4 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Codie discusses using the Black Swan personality types to structure her executive team and asks how to handle conversational boredom. Voss gives practical techniques for asking provocative pivot questions to re-engage anyone. |
Statements from this episode (26)
Voss: Warning someone they will get angry inoculates against anger
“And then why, if you're not angry yet, I might say to you, this is gonna make you angry. And it doesn't plant anger, it inoculates you from it.”
Voss: Tactical empathy works universally across cultures and religions
“No matter where you grew up, no matter what your ethnicity, your culture, your diet, your religion, I know that you've got these five core emotions. And so empathy, tactical empathy works with Arabs, works with Persians works with Latinos because you're a huma…”
Voss: Empathy is observing emotions without offering sympathy or agreement
“Empathy was originally designed to not be sympathy. It's been contorted, convoluted into usage. These days people say if you have empathy, that means you sympathize, you have compassion. Empathy is just observing the other person's Emotions. And where it's you…”
Voss: Decoupling understanding from agreement unlocks unmatched influence
“So when you can decouple those, Then actually you give yourself the ability to influence people in a way nobody else can.”
Voss: Curiosity can open up anyone because it is impossible to resist
“Simultaneously, I can open anybody up like anybody with my curiosity because curiosity is impossible to resist.”
Voss: Communication and emotional intelligence are perishable skills requiring regular practice
“Without question communication, emotional intelligence is an unlimited skill and a perishable skill. So if you haven't built it. You know, it's like going to the gym. You're not going to be in shape unless you go to the gym. Stop going to the gym. You start sl…”
Voss: Hostage Takers Rehearse for Arguments but Never for Empathy
“They're prepared for arguments. They're not, they were never prepared for empathy. Ever.”
Voss: Matching a Counterpart's Internal Voice Unlocks Influence in Negotiation
“I have to say something that's really close to what the voice in your head is saying at the moment, because otherwise the voice in your head is going to distract you. So as soon as I start lining up with a voice in your head, you don't listen to that. You star…”
Voss: Proactively calling out negative perceptions diffuses them rather than denying them
“It has shown consistently that calling out negatives, not denying them, calling them out, diffuses them.”
Voss: Manipulative negotiators weaponize the word 'fair' to coerce compromises
“The manipulative negotiators learn that using that phrase will cause you, probably cause you to compromise your position because inside you'd be like, I don't want to be unfair.”
Voss: Lying is never necessary in negotiation, even in life-or-death scenarios
“No, I don't think it's ever necessary. I'm very much against it.”
Voss: Prolonged dialogue inevitably exposes liars and destroys relationships
“Even if you're great at lying, it's exhaustive. And if I talk to you long enough, you're going to say something contradictory and I'm going to figure it out. So even if I'm good at it, you're going to catch me ultimately. And then the relationship is destroyed…”
Voss: Modern business accepts deception by omission due to short-term fear
“Business these days, Deception by omission tends to be accepted. And it's out of defensiveness. People don't know how to tell the truth. And you get really caught up in short term.”
Voss: Deception by omission permanently destroys trust and relationships
“When I find out that you deceived me by omission, I'm probably not going to be angry with you, but I'll never trust you again.”
Voss: Universal deception 'tells' do not exist; lie detection requires individual baseline
“So tells per se are strictly within context to the person. And I will talk to you long enough until I get an idea of what you look like when you're telling the truth. That's what I'm looking for.”
Voss: You cannot beat a skilled polygraph examiner
“You can't beat a good polygrapher and it's whether or not the polygrapher is any good. And a really good polygrapher will tell you before they put you on the box, Whether or not you're lying and a good polygrapher either.”
Voss: Polygraphs are inadmissible in court due to wild operator variation
“So I know if you, if they ask five questions, Then it was a lousy operator, not the machine. And so the operators vary so wildly. That's why it's generally not admissible in court.”
Voss: Psychopathy Prevalence Estimates Have Risen to Roughly 1 in 35
“When I first started looking at the number, you know, they used to say like one in every 112, 116, and now they're saying roughly one in 35”
Voss: Society Will Always Need to Incarcerate Some People Permanently
“There are, we are never going to get away from the reality that there are going to be some people that we're going to need to lock up and never let out.”
Sanchez: Studies Show 38% of Communication Effectiveness Comes From Tone
“I was reading a study that I thought was fascinating that shows that 38% of communication after studying hundreds of people in the workplace came through tone, not even the words that we said, but the way that we said them determined our outcome.”
Voss: Vocal Tone Triggers Involuntary Neurochemical Responses That Dissolve Barriers
“Your response to my tone of voice is a neurochemical response, which means it's not a choice. And if it's, if I can trigger neurochemicals in your brain, then you can't stop me from triggering them. Now you can fight them. But I can initiate the process, which…”
Codie Sanchez: Women often avoid tough partnership confrontations
“Like, I've found, by and large, women will be the ones that let the business go down, or like, you know, don't want to engage in the really tough conversation that's like, you fucked this up, you didn't do what you said you were gonna do, you know, this partne…”
Chris Voss: Blending assertion with soft skills creates superstar negotiators
“They're, they have been nurtured into assertion, but then when they, if they can blend assertion with the soft skills, then suddenly they're superstars.”
Sanchez: Higher emotional intelligence increases annual earnings by $29,000 on average
“There's a study done on a couple big corporations, but across thousands of individuals that showed that it isn't intelligence as measured by IQ that increases earnings. It's instead That those with higher ranking emotional intelligence earn on average 29,000 m…”
Voss: I only take important calls while seated and fully listening
“Also, I'm very intentioned about my important phone calls. I don't take a call while I'm driving, while I'm walking, I'm sitting and listening”
Voss: Asking What Someone Loves About Mundane Topics Shifts Conversations
“Let's say they're yammering on about the PTA. I'll probably say, what do you love about the PTA? Now that's probably going to trigger an instantaneous state change in them and change the conversation. And then I can dig into it deeply and pretty soon I'm going…”