The Exchanges

Q them overlap. You know, in my, in my world, It was really the 19 seventies and the late 19 seventies. They put in a bunch of rules that really broke government, really stopped us from firing people, stopped us from measuring their merit. You refer your book, I think, to the 19 sixties as a problem as well. Like, like, what's the, what's the history of how things broke here?

A Well, I think, um, the, the genesis of the red tape state is, is the guilt arising out of the sixties. Then the changes occurred in the seventies and the eighties. So, so you're right that the, for example, the Civil Service Reform Act in 1978, which made it impossible to hold anybody accountable, you know, was, was at the end of the seventies, but the, there was a kind of a fatal theoretical flaw that they, ah, that they committed, ah, which was to try to create a government that was better than people. They wanted to create governing as a kind of a software program where, If you had a thousand-page rule book, you just comply with the rules, and you could have an extensive procedure, and you prove by objective evidence that your answer is correct, and if you didn't like it, you have a right to complain, and it's just led to this morass.

AI assessment note: “the genesis of the red tape state is, is the guilt arising out of the sixties.”

Q the theory of this again, because, you know, so, so our founders obviously, uh, you know, had a certain view of how this should work. And John Adams famously argued, we want a government of laws, not of men, but, but you're saying we almost went too far where it's not just laws, it's thousands of scripts of things. Like was John Adams wrong or was he saying something else?

A Well, John Adams was a lawyer. He was a very good lawyer, but in his day, law, and until, you know, the 19 sixties and seventies, law involved using judgment. Judges used judgment. Everybody used judgment. Um, and, and so when he said a government and laws, he, he meant you didn't have a potentate who could throw you in jail because they didn't like your political views. You know, that we have a principle in the Bill of Rights for freedom of speech. So, That's fine. That's a, that's a legal protection. He didn't mean central planning. He didn't mean there was no such thing as a rule book telling you exactly how to organize your office and work.

AI assessment note: “when he said a government and laws, he, he meant you didn't have a potentate”

Q One of your main arguments, and we go into it more, but it's, it's to let people take responsibility again and to judge them from how they do. What does it mean to have accountability and responsibility?

A Well, in my world, uh, law is a framework of authority for, for public officials, for example, we could talk about, you know, in a free society as well. But law is a framework for authority, and within that authority, someone makes decisions using their judgment, and if it's an important decision or we don't trust people, you can have a check and balance like the Constitution has, and somebody else to approve the decision, and if they do a lousy job, they get fired. You know, that's accountability, but, but we don't have that now. Everything is legalized. Follow the rules, and then if we have any oversight, The question is, did you comply with the rules? Not, did you do a good job or did you actually, you know, help the person?

AI assessment note: “and if they do a lousy job, they get fired. You know, that's accountability”

Q was on Mill Lander. And at the same time they banned slavery, they also banned professional lawyers, which I, which I think, what I think is pretty funny. And, and it's interesting, you remind me of this by mentioning amateurs. And I think there is something to this, right? Because there's a danger of professional bureaucrats and professional lawyers like breaking things. So to talk about this a little bit.

A Yeah. So, you know, professionals all do things in a certain way and they don't innovate. They're not Silicon Valley. You know, they're, they're, they're used to doing certain way. They get comfort in, in how they're doing it. You know, the people who made anvils and stirrups and, you know, that was their skill set. And then cars came along and now they had no job. Um, So, so there needs to be, you know, a government that also is constantly a little insecure about the dislocation, you know, and not so sure that it can, I mean, again, the conceit of the people in the seventies writing these laws to tell people how to live correctly and how to run a nursing home and a school and to fill out forms and then to hire people To look at the forms that were filled out, and then to hire other people to make sure the person looking over the forms is looking over the form. So you have this kind of exponential jungle.

AI assessment note: “professionals all do things in a certain way and they don't innovate.”

Q No, and now we're learning about all the stuff that broke when you took it to the extreme. What gives you hope that your vision is possible? Is there a governor or other officials who are listening to you or doing some good things along these lines?

A Um, I was just beating my head, um, um, a tycoon in, in New York asked me at lunch a couple years ago, have you ever accomplished anything? So I said, well, now as you think, now as you mention, I think I have a perfect record of failure. And he said, that's what I thought. I'm not going to give you anybody. Um, the, the, um, Uh, first of all, there are a lot of good young political leaders. Yeah. I was talking to the governor of Kentucky the other day of a, uh, another guy I know well is a Democratic congressman who's running in Massachusetts. Seth Moulton is running for Ed Markey's Senate seat. Some really good young Republicans, um, different state governor, you know, governor of Utah. The, um, but, but political leaders are lagging indicators.

AI assessment note: “first of all, there are a lot of good young political leaders.”

Q How do we build back this trust in competent government and making government more competent? Again, you had, you had a playbook. Do we start, can you start everywhere at once? Are there certain areas you think we should be focused on first?

A Uh, I don't, you, you can't push a button, unfortunately. Um, I think you can start in, in various areas with laws, and I recommend one in infrastructure where Congress, for example, could pass a short law that says, Notwithstanding any other law and regulation to the contrary, the way we will build transmission lines for the next five years is, is this. Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. You know, federal preemption of state and local, you have clear, clear hierarchies of decisions, and then you start making decisions. You have, I have, I have to win my case in the Supreme Court on the teachers unions, but in general, what you want With, with schools is, is maximum alternatives and maximum ownership, you know, by, by everyone, starting with the people who run the school.

AI assessment note: “I think you can start in, in various areas with laws, and I recommend one in infrastructure”