Mar 10, 2022 · 35m · american-optimist
How to Fix Homelessness, Expand Telehealth, and Defeat Special Interests with Jared Meyer · Joe Lonsdale
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of American Optimist, host Joe Lonsdale interviews Jared Meyer, director of Cicero Action, on how to defeat entrenched special interests and pass high-impact state legislation. They explore practical policy strategies across probation reform, telehealth expansion, homelessness accountability, and higher education reform.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Joe holds 35.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Joe as informed peer 4.5 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 1.3 Joe pushing back 1.3
speaking balance: gold is Joe, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 25:06 Pushing back on hyper-partisanship assumption
Jared mildly counters Joe's assertion that state politics is hopelessly captured by ideological extremes, noting that Texas Senate Democrats overwhelmingly backed their homelessness reform bill.
Hardest push from Joe ▶ 27:32 Challenging the secretive nature of lobbyingJoe directly questions Jared's preference for operating discreetly behind the scenes, arguing that public transparency and online exposure would build broader support.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 2:05 Explaining the lack of legislative staffJared educates Joe on the operational reality that state legislators often have no policy staff and rely on outside policy organizations as an outsourced team.
Joe holds their own ▶ 31:18 Demonstrating administrative state knowledgeJoe brings up his relationship with former OIRA administrator Paul Ray to illustrate his understanding of federal regulatory oversight and rulemaking.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Joe as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Joe pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Episode Preview: Using the Special Interest Playbook | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Joe outlines Cicero Action's mission and probes how lobbying functions at the state level. Jared educates on the day-to-day realities of understaffed state lawmakers who rely heavily on outside policy groups. | |
| Unpacking Special Interests and the Lobbyist Playbook | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Joe and Jared discuss special interest tactics, using auto dealer associations and hospital systems as primary case studies. The dynamic is fully aligned and collaborative. | |
| Criminal Justice Innovation & Arizona Probation Reform | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Jared explains how incentive-based funding reduced recidivism in Arizona, while Joe contributes framing around bottom-up policy testing and fiscal mechanisms. | |
| Overcoming Healthcare Special Interests and Telehealth Barriers | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | The discussion turns to healthcare and telehealth restrictions where medical lobbies block interstate practice. Both agree on the policy problem and discuss legislative resistance. | |
| Fixing Homelessness and Confronting the Non-Profit Complex | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | Joe and Jared analyze resistance from the homelessness non-profit sector against accountability metrics. Jared slightly reframes Joe's thesis on extreme polarization by pointing out bipartisan support in the Texas Senate. | |
| Far-Right Pushback and Public Safety Data | 4 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Joe challenges Jared on why lobbyists prefer quiet negotiations rather than airing fights publicly online. Jared explains why public pressure campaigns often derail bills before completion. | |
| Jared Meyer’s Background & Navigating the Administrative State | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Jared shares his background at the Council of Economic Advisers and Department of Labor. Joe displays expertise regarding regulatory oversight, mentioning former OIRA administrator Paul Ray. | |
| Higher Education Reform and Earnings-Based Funding | 5 | 2 | 1 | 1 | The conversation concludes with higher education reform, focusing on performance-based funding tied to graduate earnings in Florida and Texas. Both hosts share full strategic agreement. |
Statements from this episode (16)
Meyer: Most US State Legislators Lack Dedicated Policy Staff
“In most states, state legislators don't even have policy staff.”
Meyer: Policy Groups Succeed by Serving as Outsourced Staff for Lawmakers
“The best thing you can do is be an outsource staff for them, give them the resources they need and work behind the scenes to make sure they understand the policy.”
Meyer: Some State Legislators Earn as Little as $13,000 Annually
“There's some states you make as little as 13,000 dollars a year for a quote-unquote part-time legislature, but really they're there all the time.”
Meyer: Corporate state lobbying focuses primarily on defense and blocking bills
“What's interesting is with lobbying, most of it's on defense. So what happens is a giant corporation will hire maybe five or six lobbying firms, all the top ones in the state, just so that if something goes wrong, they can activate them.”
Meyer: No state lobbyist represents both healthcare providers and insurers
“I would say it's a mix, but the good news is no lobbyist represents the hospitals or the providers and the insurers because they're always fighting with each other. So you kind of have to pick.”
Meyer: Special interest primary threats against lawmakers are mostly empty
“I think it mostly scares them. There's certain issues where the public, if they actually care about it, that can be effective. But in a lot of times it's all bark, no bite. I think that legislators are slowly wising up to the idea that even when they come in w…”
Meyer: Arizona Unanimously Passed Performance-Based Probation Funding Reform
“So one of them, I'd say the most successful model was in Arizona, where they completely overhauled how their probation and parole systems are funded so that the individual offices compete against their past performance. And when they can drive down recidivism,…”
Meyer: Only Florida and one other state fully allow cross-state telehealth
“Florida and one other state. That's it.”
Meyer: Four homeless people die daily in LA, exceeding military combat mortality
“Well, and so just San Francisco and LA alone, I mean, four people, four homeless individuals die on the streets of LA every day. That death rate is higher than the death rate in Iraq and Afghanistan for soldiers.”
Meyer: State polling shows over 70% support reforming failed homelessness policies
“So every time we've run a poll on a state of registered voters, it is a 70 plus issue. 70% of people because I want to figure out what works for messaging. Even when I go is like the caricature of criminalizing homelessness, which is just one of many things th…”
Meyer: All but four Texas Senate Democrats backed homelessness funding penalty bill
“In Texas, we supported a bill that would have stripped localities of all their funding if they didn't actually take steps to make homelessness better, and all but four Democrats in the Texas Senate voted for this bill.”
Meyer: Lack of policing data allows social media anecdotes to win
“We're letting right now, when no data exists, anecdotes win, and that's why isolated incidents on social media completely color how Americans view policing.”
Meyer: Congress is a waste of time compared to the administrative state
“I think Congress is a waste of time. The administrative state is not a waste of time. It has so much power now. I mean, it's what Congress used to be. That's where the real law.”
Lonsdale: Texas vocational school salaries grew over 100% via performance funding
“So in Texas, of course, we fund our vocational schools based on the success of their students. Salaries have gone up over a hundred percent.”
Meyer: Florida workforce package ties two-thirds of performance funding to earnings
“So in Florida now, in a comprehensive workforce package, we were able to advocate for a change so that all performance funding, or out of all performance funding, two-thirds will be based on student earnings.”
Meyer: Republican negative perception of universities rose from 37% to 73%
“Back in 2015, that Pew was asking this question, do you think colleges and universities are having a Positive or negative effect on the way things are going in America. Back then, only 37% of Republicans said negative. Now, when I just asked that question in a…”