Jan 2, 2019 · 47m · a16z
a16z Podcast | Bots and Beyond
Chris Messina · 19m spoken Benedict Evans · 13m spoken Connie Chan · 6m spoken Sonal Chokshi · 3m spoken
0:00 / 0:00
▶ Watch on YouTube →
gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
This a16z podcast discussion examines whether chatbots and conversational interfaces represent the next major computing paradigm following the era of web and mobile apps. Featuring tech analysts and industry practitioners, the panel analyzes platform control dynamics, user experience limitations, Chinese market precedents like WeChat, and strategic guidance for software developers.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The host holds 8.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The host as informed peer 1.9 Guest teaching 3.3 Guest disagreement 3.8 The host pushing back 1.0
speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 28:49 Benedict vs. Chris on Push vs. Pull Channels
Benedict bluntly tells Chris his framing is 'exactly wrong' regarding user control in messaging apps versus web browsing, provoking an immediate counter-argument from Chris.
Hardest push from the host ▶ 24:31 Host Re-anchors Focus onto User FrictionSonal cuts through high-level platform theories to firmly reorient the discussion around end-user friction and practicality, refusing to let the guests ignore actual user desires.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 7:28 Connie Refutes Host's Identity AssumptionWhen Sonal assumes that chat bubbles are uniquely necessary for maintaining identity during transactions, Connie instantly corrects her by explaining that web views preserve persistent identity just as seamlessly.
The host holds their own ▶ 13:07 Host Grounds Scale Discussion with Messaging StatisticsSonal demonstrates strong topic mastery by introducing precise metrics on Facebook Messenger and WhatsApp daily message volume, contrasting them with historical peak SMS numbers to set up the scale debate.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The host as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The host pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Facebook F8 Bot Platform Features and Tech Industry Megatrends | 1 | 3 | 1 | 0 | Benedict provides an expert breakdown of Facebook's F8 Messenger platform announcements and connects them to three broader industry trends. The host provides minimal framing, allowing the guest to deliver an extended educational overview. | |
| WeChat Official Accounts Comparison and Chat UI Limitations | 2 | 4 | 2 | 1 | Connie Chan educates the host on why pure text-based chatbots failed in China's WeChat ecosystem and why web views are superior for commerce. The exchange is highly informative as Connie reframes the host's question about bot efficacy. | |
| Identity Persistence, Canvas Types, and Open Web versus Chat | 3 | 5 | 4 | 2 | Sonal suggests chat bubbles are crucial for identity, but Connie quickly corrects her by noting web views maintain persistent identity just as well. Chris Messina joins to address critiques of his conversational commerce concept and clarify canvas constraints. | |
| Distribution Models, Discovery Channels, and Operating System Platforms | 1 | 3 | 5 | 0 | Chris directly disagrees with Benedict's claim about Facebook search and discovery models, pointing out friend-based filtering. Connie further emphasizes that WeChat functions as a full operating system rather than a mere chat interface. | |
| Messaging Scale, Newsfeed Positioning, and Payment Infrastructure Integration | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | Sonal introduces scale metrics comparing Messenger volume to peak SMS. Chris vigorously argues that Facebook checkout plugins in Messenger beat Apple Pay to the web and offer crucial low-bandwidth access for the developing world. | |
| Global Identity Realities versus Western Assumptions in Tech Platforms | 0 | 4 | 4 | 0 | Benedict shares an anecdote about Burma where account sharing undermines Western assumptions about online identity. Chris argues in response that maturing markets inevitably move toward persistent identity for commercial transactions. | |
| Evaluating the Transition from Web and Apps to Bots | 2 | 3 | 3 | 1 | Sonal prompts the panel on whether bots represent a true successor runtime after web and apps. Benedict analyzes platform dynamics, contrasting local service discovery on Baidu Maps with Messenger's generic search box. | |
| Small Business Discovery, Social Channels, and Merchant Onboarding | 2 | 4 | 5 | 1 | Chris explicitly challenges Benedict's view on merchant discovery, arguing Messenger offers small businesses low-friction access compared to custom apps. Connie then challenges Chris by questioning whether bot development is truly easier than webpage creation. | |
| User Preferences, Frictionless Interaction, and Third Runtime Search | 4 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Sonal steps in with strong host pushback, steering the abstract industry debate toward concrete user needs for frictionless customer service. Benedict acknowledges her point and expands on user convenience versus vendor app-install goals. | |
| User Control, Advertising Overhead, and Closed Platform Formats | 1 | 3 | 7 | 0 | A heated guest debate occurs as Benedict tells Chris his characterization of messaging control is 'exactly wrong' because messaging is a push channel while the web is a pull channel. Chris immediately fires back that users must initiate contact first. | |
| Evolving Consumer Expectations, Authenticity, and Complementary Tooling | 3 | 2 | 3 | 2 | Chris advocates for Snapchat and Messenger as narrow, authentic channels that strip out web ad clutter. Sonal grounds the debate by pointing out that bots act as complementary tools to existing web infrastructure rather than replacing it. | |
| Platform Governance Dynamics and Defining Conversational Software | 1 | 4 | 5 | 0 | Benedict quotes The Godfather to illustrate platform governance and user behavior dynamics. Connie calls out Chris's definition of conversational software, noting that the concept has existed in Asia for years. | |
| Offline QR Integration, Diffuse Computing, and Advice for Developers | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | The panel explores offline QR code integration and diffuse computing beyond smartphones. Sonal contributes an expert thought experiment on branded bot personalities, while Connie closes with pragmatic advice for developers considering bot creation. |
Statements from this episode (29)
Chokshi: Chris Messina proposed the first Twitter hashtag
“He's widely credited with proposing the first use of hashtag on Twitter”
Evans: Facebook Messenger bot platform launched without viral distribution mechanics
“Very oddly, there's no sort of social or viral mechanic in it, which we can talk about a bit later.”
Evans: Smartphones act as non-neutral internet platforms unlike desktop Windows
“The smartphone itself is kind of, is a platform for the internet in a way that Windows was not. You targeted the browser, you didn't target Windows, but on the smartphone, you target the smartphone operating system, and it's not neutral. Apple and Google chang…”
Chan: Text-based chatbots failed on WeChat in China
“When WeChat first launched official accounts, a lot of them were more text-based as well with very Simple very simple graphics. They didn't have the menus at the bottom just yet, and a lot of official accounts weren't focused on the WebView concept and the app…”
Chan: Chatbots slow down e-commerce; messaging should link to web views
“I think a lot of commerce actually doesn't need the conversation. And I don't think it, the dialogue, the back and forth chat is that additive. I take customer service aside from that because that's an instance where I feel like I want someone listening. I wan…”
Evans: Chatbots work for customer support, not browsing product catalogs
“Well, there's some interaction patterns where that's going to work really well. Like if you want, if you placed an order online and you want to change the order or you want to see if it's available and you want to ask like an actual question, there's an actual…”
Messina: Chatbots are currently dumb and shouldn't replace all web interfaces
“I actually agree with you that chat isn't the right thing for all things. One of the critiques that I got, of course, from the piece that I wrote about conversational commerce was, well, it was your critique, which is, well, you know, it doesn't make sense to …”
Chan: Baidu Maps integrated local services like booking cleaners by 2014
“There is no chat functionality in Baidu Maps, and in 2014, you could already book a cleaner on demand through Baidu Maps. You could already hire a driver on demand through Baidu Maps. You could already buy a specific seat at a movie theater for a movie in Baid…”
Chan: WeChat is a mobile operating system, not a chat app
“If you think about WeChat, it, it's not Fair to classify it as a chat application, and it's not fair to draw all the conclusions that WeChat has achieved and say that all messaging apps can achieve that, because WeChat is much more an operating system. It is m…”
Chan: High-frequency apps with payments can replicate WebView commerce ecosystems
“And in a sense, any app that has high frequency use case, has login, and ideally payments data tied to it could create the same WebView commerce ecosystem.”
Messina: Searching for the 'WeChat of the West' is unhelpful
“There is, and has been this meme, which I have nothing to do with and don't think that it's that useful of figuring out what the WeChat of the West is going to be. And it's actually not that interesting of a question.”
Chan: Over one-third of WeChat users have linked banking credentials
“WeChat flourishes because over a third of their users already have their banking credentials tied to their account. And that's why So much commerce can happen with what, just one tap.”
Messina: Facebook beat Apple Pay to web checkout integration
“And they beat Apple pay to the web, which I think is, is hugely important for the developing world and for people who live in environments that are not at all like ours.”
Messina: The web has completely failed as an identity and payment platform
“So when I think about the failure of the web as the platform, it's because it's so heavy. It's because, you know, ad blockers are in ascendancy because the web is so slow for most of the world that we don't have sensitivity to that. And so when it comes to ide…”
Evans: Linking Facebook to personal identity is a Western assumption
“So the idea that this is about identity is kind of a Western assumption, that actually those people in Burma are using Facebook like Twitter, with no connection to their identity at all.”
Messina: Facebook Login is integrated into 70% of top global apps
“I mean, they said yesterday that Facebook login is used across 70% of apps out there in the world.”
Messina: Facebook remains a strong long-term platform as markets mature
“I think with a maturing market that starts to understand the power and utility of internet access and internet identity, Facebook is actually a pretty good platform to build on for the longterm.”
Evans: Creating an app store inside Messenger just shifts discovery problems
“It's like, problem, the app store has two million things in it. Solution, create an app store inside Messenger. Problem, the Messenger app store has two million things inside it. Like, if you haven't actually done something, you have to do some other thing. Al…”
Chan: Web views inside messaging apps onboard businesses faster than full bots
“If you focus much more on web views and use the bot as more just a shortcut to go into the full-on web view, you can onboard accounts much, much faster.”
Evans: Messaging platforms are push channels, unlike the pull-based web
“Facebook, those are push channels, whereas the web is a pull channel.”
Evans: Direct traffic accounts for only one-quarter of BuzzFeed content views
“There's a great chart from BuzzFeed, information from BuzzFeed on where people watch content on BuzzFeed. And, you know, it's one quarter is direct, and then it's YouTube and Facebook video and Facebook images and Snapchat.”
Evans: Closed platforms force publishers to adopt custom content formats
“You can look at Snapchat video is exactly the same as Instant Stories or Google AMP in a funny kind of way, even though one is that the bandwidth consumption is very different. But they're about somebody with a closed platform creating new content formats and …”
Messina: Users abandon social platforms when aggressive monetization begins
“Successively, though, you see generations of people using social media abandon the previous generation once they move into monetization mode because they start to abuse the users.”
Chan: Text-and-single-image messaging interfaces severely limit commerce marketing
“At the same time, commerce is a hundred percent reliant on marketing, right? Commerce is built on marketing. And so if you completely strip down the way that you can market a new product to just text in a one image, it, it's very limiting for these commerce co…”
Chokshi: Consumers will book on websites and manage itineraries via bots
“Like when I book my initial plane ticket, I'm probably going to go to a travel website. And then when I have the rest of those interactions about updating my travel and doing all the reservations, I'll do all that within a bot.”
Evans: Facebook Messenger lacks WeChat's circular network effect
“WeChat has achieved the point that its success is circular, that you have to be on WeChat because everyone's on WeChat. Everyone's on WeChat because everyone's on WeChat. All brands are on it. And Facebook clearly isn't in that position at all. Certainly not o…”
Evans: Mark Zuckerberg excels at adapting Facebook to user behavior trends
“What Zuckerberg is extremely good at is surfing user behavior. And that if anything is unbalancing the surfboard, he pushes them off.”
Messina: Conversational software is a paradigm spanning chat and voice platforms
“It's about conversational software as being a new paradigm for releasing and launching services, features, and tools in a way that previously people didn't have that expectation. And so that's the shift that I see in terms of this new runtime and that those co…”