Oct 2, 2025 · 42m · a16z
The Person Who Runs HR For 2 Million Federal Workers
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of The a16z Podcast, OPM Director Scott Kupor and Federal CIO Greg Barbaccia discuss transforming the federal government by reforming merit-based hiring, shifting agency culture away from risk aversion, and integrating enterprise AI. They outline a modern blueprint for public service that prioritizes mission impact, operational efficiency, and unified citizen services.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. How this is scored →
The host as informed peer 2.1 Guest teaching 3.6 Guest disagreement 0.0 The host pushing back 0.0
speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 18:54 Rejection of the lifetime tenure pitch
Scott describes directly pushing back against internal career staff who claimed government's main recruiting pitch should be lifetime tenure, calling that idea an outdated myth.
Hardest push from the host ▶ 8:08 Challenging the legalistic culture of DCKatherine challenges the systemic risk aversion in Washington, asking whether viewing every issue through a legal lens rather than a business lens is what prevents leaders from looking at potential upside.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 12:53 Correcting federal performance rating statisticsScott corrects Katherine's assertion that 4% of federal employees receive below-expectation ratings, revealing that official data shows 99.7% receive passing ratings and only 0.3% are rated below expectations.
The host holds their own ▶ 12:13 Citing federal rating statistics from media appearancesKatherine demonstrates active background knowledge by bringing up Scott's previous televised comments regarding federal grading curves and performance rating distributions.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The host as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The host pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Title Card: The a16z Podcast | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Katherine introduces the episode and asks Scott Kupor about leaving Andreessen Horowitz to manage the federal workforce. Scott responds amicably, explaining his motivations around fiscal issues and government technology deficits. | |
| Greg Barbaccia on Bringing Private Sector Tech Leadership to Government | 1 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Scott explains the mandate of OPM and outlines recent workforce reductions from 2.4 million down to 2.1 million employees. Greg Barbaccia then introduces his background and role as U.S. CIO driving cross-agency alignment. | |
| First 100 Days: Uncovering Washington's Culture of Risk Mitigation | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Katherine asks about first 100 days culture shock. Scott reframes federal culture as having an obsession with risk mitigation where upside potential is never calculated relative to risk. | |
| The Root Causes of Risk Aversion: Legalism, Politics, and Oversight | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Katherine suggests DC's legalistic framing drives risk aversion. Scott expands on political incentives, the lack of portfolio thinking in one-off project failures, and constant pressure from oversight bodies like GAO and OIG. | |
| Miscalibration of Risk in Federal Technology Initiatives | 4 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Katherine cites previous statistics indicating 4% of federal workers perform below expectations. Scott gently corrects her with updated OPM data showing 99.7% of workers meet or exceed expectations, detailing new forced distribution efforts for senior executives. | |
| Addressing Workforce Feedback and Incentivizing Teamwork | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Katherine asks about pushback on forced distributions. Scott notes both relief from high performers and concerns about competition, drawing on lessons from Andreessen Horowitz regarding teamwork incentives. | |
| Recruiting Tech Talent: Pitching Mission Impact Over Compensation | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Greg explains how the government competes on mission impact rather than compensation to attract tech talent. Scott emphasizes shifting the narrative away from lifetime tenure and fixing contractor dependency. | |
| Tapping Early-Career Talent and Normalizing Public Service 'Tours of Duty' | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Scott details the severe youth gap in government where only 7% of workers are under 30 compared to 25% outside. He advocates for fluid public/private tours of duty rather than treating civil service as a 40-year commitment. | |
| Fixing Technical Leadership, Resume Screening, and Contractor Sprawl | 2 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Greg highlights technical management deficiencies in screening candidates and overseeing contracts, using the analogy of paying $900k for Chevrolet Suburbans to illustrate absurd contractor pricing. | |
| Modernizing Federal Hiring: Skills Assessments and Exiting Consent Decrees | 1 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Scott explains how a 43-year-old civil service consent decree prevented functional skill testing for hires. He shares that the administration recently exited the decree to mandate actual competency assessments. | |
| Driving AI Integration and Shifting Culture Toward Mission Outcomes | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Katherine frames the post-ChatGPT paradigm shift. Greg describes reorienting government workers from process checking to outcome delivery, while Scott explains rolling out ChatGPT desktop access to OPM staff. | |
| Eliminating 'Chair Swiveling' and Fostering Practical AI Usage | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Katherine asks about LLM familiarity among staff. Scott describes rejecting administrative legal memos in favor of quick training allowances, while Greg notes workers previously had to 'chair swivel' to personal phones to use modern tools. | |
| Scott Kupor's Key Tour Metrics: Operational Efficiency and Youth Talent Pipelines | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Katherine asks how guests will define success for their tours of duty. Scott outlines making operational efficiency a primary metric and creating sustainable pipelines for early-career talent. | |
| Greg Barbaccia's Key Priorities: Single Citizen Portal and Breaking Data Silos | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Greg shares his vision for a single citizen portal and breaking down agency data silos. Katherine leads a rapid-fire lightning round on tech myths, policy tweaks, and book recommendations. |
Statements from this episode (30)
Scott Kupor: U.S. government is unprepared for rapid technological advancement
“Technology continues to advance rapidly and, you know, just to be blunt, the government is nowhere near prepared for it. We just don't have the right talent here.”
Greg Barbaccia: Government cannot match Silicon Valley pay but rules on mission
“While it's very hard for the government to compete with Silicon Valley on compensation, we do rule on mission.”
Boyle: A renaissance of tech leaders is entering public service
“We are seeing this, I would call it a renaissance, of people in the private sector, particularly people in tech with tech backgrounds, Wanting to serve their country, wanting to come into government.”
Kupor: Federal government started the year with 2.4 million civilian employees
“Just to kind of level set again for the organization, we've got about roughly, we started the year about 2.4 million civilian employees, so we don't have responsibility for uniformed military, but there's about 2.4 million civilian employees.”
Kupor: Federal workforce will shrink by 300,000 employees due to DOGE
“We've done a lot of work over the course of this year, a lot of which was catalyzed by Elon and the Doge team. As a result, we expect probably that we'll end up with somewhere around 2.1 million employees at the end of the year, so roughly about a 300,000 redu…”
Barbaccia: Silicon Valley's 'move fast and break things' ethos fails in government
“Coming from Silicon Valley, where we move fast and break things, you do not have that opportunity in the United States government at this level.”
Kupor: Federal culture treats risk as binary while ignoring upside
“We've kind of just embedded in the culture, this idea that risk is like this pass fail thing. Like you either have risk or you don't have risk. And if you have risk, God forbid, like, you should ever go there, basically, and so that to me was like the most eye…”
Kupor: Political weaponization of failure prevents a portfolio approach to innovation
“There's no concept I would say of a portfolio. Everything is a one-off project. And when a one-off project fails, then whichever party didn't sponsor it says, those guys are idiots.”
Kupor: Excessive Federal Oversight Drives Government Agency Risk Aversion
“You've created this culture of oversight Which therefore then means, like, we should never take any risk because nobody wants to, like, see their department show up in a GAO report, basically. So we've just overdone this concept of risk as a way to actually, y…”
Barbaccia: The US CIO team has more auditors than actual team members
“For me specifically, I have more auditors auditing my team than I have team members. And that's not hyperbole.”
Kupor: Most federal operations do not involve critical national security
“The vast majority of things we do don't involve sovereignty or national security, or does somebody actually get a social security check?”
Kupor: 99.7% of federal workers receive performance ratings of three or higher
“So fours and fives, so the very, very top, is roughly 65 to 70% of people get a four or five. 90, when you add threes, fours, and five, that's 99.7%, ok? So 99.7% are a three or higher. 0.3%, therefore, is a one or a two.”
Kupor: OPM introduces forced distribution, capping top executive ratings at 30%
“So one of the things that we're doing, we just put out guidance on this, at least with respect to what are called the SES, which are the most senior level people in government, is we are effectively doing a modicum of a forced distribution. And so we put out g…”
Kupor: Government tech roles fail to attract engineers by focusing on contractors
“The other problem we have with getting, you know, engineers here is many jobs in, in the engineering organizations are managing contractors. Right. And so if you're some like, you know, super smart person, you know, whatever coming out of, you know, MIT comput…”
Kupor: Only 7% of federal employees are under 30 years old
“Seven percent of government employees are under the age of 30. That compares with close to a quarter of the normal workforce outside of government.”
Kupor: Many managers in federal tech organizations are non-technical
“A significant portion of people in technical organizations are not actually technical, and they're managing people who are technical, and therefore they're just not, quite frankly, able to provide career, career development, other things that happen.”
Kupor: Choosing between 40-year civil service or private careers is outdated
“This idea that at 22 years old, you have to decide, like, am I going to go be a forty-year career, you know, civil servant, or am I going to go be a forty-year private sector person, I just think that's an outdated mode of thinking of employment.”
Barbaccia: Private sector tech work becomes easier after working in government
“Everything you do after working in tech in the government will be, ah, easier, I assure you. And you will learn how to operate in environments of, ah, opacity that, Probably you don't see in the private sector.”
Barbaccia: Non-technical federal HR staff screen tech candidates without necessary expertise
“The people who are screening resumes for technologists in the government perhaps don't have the background to know what exactly we need, what exactly we're looking for. Oftentimes are the same people screening resumes for a bunch of different roles under their…”
Barbaccia: Non-technical officials award bloated contracts because they misunderstand technology problems
“We are missing that crucial talent in the government. This is why the people who are charged with approving contracts oftentimes do not understand the technology problem deeply. They don't understand what is an appropriate solution. They don't understand how l…”
Barbaccia: Government celebrates process completion over actual mission outcomes
“In the government, oftentimes you celebrate the fact that you checked all the boxes and you completed a process. Disconnected from the reality of this move the needle for whatever outcome we're trying to drive for our mission.”
Kupor: OPM finally deployed ChatGPT to desktops via a $1-a-year GSA deal
“Until this week, we did not have ChatGPT on anybody's actual desktop, right? And so I've been, you know, pounding my CIO, and pounding my CIO, we finally, literally, you know, thanks to the new deal that GSA did for the, you know, the one dollar a year deal, A…”
Kupor: Government technology adoption fails through long-term white papers
“If we say, like, you know, we've got this big agenda to get AI, then people are gonna build these five, 10, 15 year plans, and quite frankly, nothing will ever happen. Like, we need, like, micro-level projects at each agency with basic use cases to say, how do…”
Kupor: OPM employees granted two hours monthly for AI training
“Everybody, you know, you're entitled to two hours a month of training, using all these free resources. You can take time out of work, just clear it with your manager.”
Kupor: Silicon Valley recruits resorted to using ChatGPT on their personal phones
“The people on my team who, you know, came from Silicon Valley who are working in my department, What they were doing was just, they would just, you know, on their personal phone, they were using ChatGPG to help them do stuff”
Kupor: OPM goal is making operational efficiency a top government metric
“My primary goals for our organization is, number one is, I want operational efficiency to actually be a real first class metric in the government, right?”
Kupor: Government power is measured by budget and headcount, incentivizing bureaucratic bloat
“Today, like, everybody's power in government is measured by how big their budget is and how many people they have. And so, again, we get the exact behavior we incent, which is everybody wants to, like, grow their budget and grow their people.”
Barbaccia: US government plans a unified citizen portal for benefits and taxes
“So we're thinking about how we could responsibly implement a consent-based, citizen-centric data sharing between agencies which would lead to a portal you could go to and see everything in one place, my benefits information, my tax return status, when my passp…”
Barbaccia: President signed executive order breaking down federal data silos
“The president signed an executive order about breaking down these silos.”
Kupor: Government can and should be a leading tech innovator
“Look, I think it's a I think the myth that I'd like to retire is that the government actually cannot and should not be A leading innovator with deployment of technology. I just think it's silly. And again, this whole risk mindset has totally warped everybody's…”