The Exchanges

Q Nick, what have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

A So one of my magic moments in, in crypto, um, recently has been, um, on-chain messaging products. So I, I used to, there, there's been, um, you know, this has been kind of a meme in crypto for a while. There's been a bunch of, there were a bunch of ICOs around this back in 2017, and kind of combining crypto and messaging has always been an idea. Um, and I kind of, Dismissed the idea. I didn't really get it until, um, this year when, um, I used, uh, a messaging product within Coinbase wallet. And the magic moment that I think is, is, um, is pretty interesting and kind of crypto native is that any, uh, Ethereum address or Solana address or whatever you want to call it, uh, any crypto address can have a messaging component and you can, um, Um, you can have a conversation with someone that persists across applications. So I messaged someone on Coinbase Wallet, um, with my address that I was logged into on Coinbase Wallet, and, um, I am also logged into, uh, Converse, which is another, um, you know, app, uh, on-chain messaging app, and the message persists across two applications. So I, I now think, uh, every wallet is going to have a messaging component. Um, and, and on-chain messaging is going to be a big, um, you know, crypto use case eventually.

AI assessment note: “I kind of, Dismissed the idea. I didn't really get it until, um, this year”

Q a.m. Um, okay, I want to get to one confirmation. I mean, man, the, the, the scaling and the evolution is incredible. Um, I want to start on how big is the, and I'm going to ask some pretty base questions, but I live in standard venture world, and so, It's different. How big is the fund and how do you think through the right size of fund to raise?

A So our first fund, uh, which was launched in 2017 is twenty six million. You know, twenty six million at that time in, in venture for like a first time, uh, you know, fund manager is, is big, but in crypto is actually pretty small. And I actually could have raised Much more. Um, and a lot of people in crypto is like, oh, why is your fund so small? It's like, like kind of looking down on me that, uh, you know, I had such a small fund, you know, that just is the time in crypto. Um, it was, it was a bull market and, um, you know, in bull markets and there was, there was a lot of FOMO. You can really capitalize on that. I thought it was important to start small and, uh, and be disciplined, particularly because like our focus is Um, you know, very early stage kind of precede seed, uh, in products that we deeply understand from a user perspective. So, um, you know, the thinking was, um, twenty six million dollar fund make, um, between 20 and 30 investments of between 500 K and a million or so in terms of, uh, initial investment. Um, so that was kind of the first fund and the thinking.

AI assessment note: “our first fund, uh, which was launched in 2017 is twenty six million.”

Q Not at all, but I want to start with a little bit of kind of two origin stories, really. One is obviously how you found crypto for the first time, and then obviously is on the firm. Just take me back on the crypto side. How did you first find crypto and come to join Coinbase?

A So I've always been an internet person. Like in middle school, I was really interested in sneakers. I was, you know, buying and selling and collecting, uh, Jordans and Nikes, and I played a lot of basketball. So I was, Super into sneakers. I was spending a ton of time on Nike talk, which is kind of the early sneakerhead forum. I've just always kind of been gravitated towards the internet. Um, and even more so than like the, the, the physical world around me in some ways, I think I'm kind of unique in that sense where, you know, when I first heard about Bitcoin, it was this, uh, Wired article talking about this magic internet money that was being used to buy guns and drugs on Silk Road. Right. That was kind of the early media narrative. And if I asked the people in the physical world around me, you know, what they thought, um, like everyone else at that time, they would have thought it was stupid and they would have told me not to spend any time on it. Right. But I wanted to see who was on the internet talking about this. Um, and I stumbled across a Bitcoin talk, which was the first, uh, online forum Uh, for Bitcoin that was created by Satoshi Nakamoto, the, the founder of Bitcoin. I saw on Bitcoin talk that, um, you know, the media narrative is one thing, right? Talking about this You know, magic internet money that was being used for illegal stuff. And, um, but, but the realit…

AI assessment note: “when I first heard about Bitcoin, it was this, uh, Wired article talking about”

Q I think it's like being an entrepreneur. It's persistence. It's going through the shittest of shit days and coming back tomorrow and saying today could be different. Can I ask you, I'm just too interested, what was the worst luck that you went through, that you persisted through?

A Yeah, I'm talking about some things I haven't talked about, uh, really, really publicly, but I was working, um, at Coinbase, um, but still in business school. I had all my money in, uh, Bitcoin on Coinbase, right? And that's how much I believed. Uh, like I, I basically, uh, you know, emptied my bank account, um, put it all in, in Bitcoin. This was before Coinbase had a two-factor authentication, right? Um, everyone knows now that, you know, if you have a Coinbase account, you have a password that secures your account, but also, you know, you're using Google Authenticator or Authy or, or two-factor. Literally like two weeks before Um, Coinbase added two factor authentication. There was a fairly sophisticated, um, phishing attack that on a number of Coinbase employees, um, and, um, other people associated kind of with, with Coinbase. And I was one of them. So I, I remember, uh, you know, the morning it happened, I was like, um, you know, groggy. I was in this, I was in business school at the time, you know, I was groggy from a night out or something. And Woke up, um, got an email from what, what, um, you know, appeared to be a Coinbase, um, email, but it, but it wasn't, you know, I, I wasn't careful. And at the end of the day, it was my own fault, but I basically got phished. Um, I got an email saying that Coinbase updated terms of service. Um, I clicked the link to try to update…

AI assessment note: “the hacker Got into my account and drained, uh, all my Bitcoin.”

Q a.m. Um, okay, I want to get to one confirmation. I mean, man, the, the, the scaling and the evolution is incredible. Um, I want to start on how big is the, and I'm going to ask some pretty base questions, but I live in standard venture world, and so, It's different. How big is the fund and how do you think through the right size of fund to raise?

A So our first fund, uh, which was launched in 2017 is twenty six million. You know, twenty six million at that time in, in venture for like a first time, uh, you know, fund manager is, is big, but in crypto is actually pretty small. And I actually could have raised Much more. Um, and a lot of people in crypto is like, oh, why is your fund so small? It's like, like kind of looking down on me that, uh, you know, I had such a small fund, you know, that just is the time in crypto. Um, it was, it was a bull market and, um, you know, in bull markets and there was, there was a lot of FOMO. You can really capitalize on that. I thought it was important to start small and, uh, and be disciplined, particularly because like our focus is Um, you know, very early stage kind of precede seed, uh, in products that we deeply understand from a user perspective. So, um, you know, the thinking was, um, twenty six million dollar fund make, um, between 20 and 30 investments of between 500 K and a million or so in terms of, uh, initial investment. Um, so that was kind of the first fund and the thinking.

AI assessment note: “our first fund, uh, which was launched in 2017 is twenty six million.”

Q Your nation never fails to stagger me. Like, really, I love the way there's, you know, leaders of the free world. That is fucking terrifying. Um, ok, good. I'm glad we covered that. Um, is Trump good for crypto?

A That remains to be seen. A lot of people think no. Um, you know, he tweeted in 2018, uh, cryptocurrencies are bad, um, something like that. Uh, one of his, you know, standard mean tweets. My feeling is that, um, back then he wasn't really paying attention to it. He, he had some authoritarians that were working for him, Steve Mnuchin, um, and, uh, Gary Cohn that kind of crafted that, that belief. Um, and I think now if you look at, I mean, this week, I don't know, Harry, if you saw, I'm sure Kyle did, um, he dropped an NFT collection, the, the Trump mugshots collection of NFTs. He's selling NFTs on Polygon. Just, if you think about Trump, you know, we know, we know he loves memes, we know he loves attention. I, I personally think, you know, he's going to be leaning into crypto in a big way in 24, 24, that's my prediction, but we'll see.

AI assessment note: “I personally think, you know, he's going to be leaning into crypto”

Q Nick, what have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

A So one of my magic moments in, in crypto, um, recently has been, um, on-chain messaging products. So I, I used to, there, there's been, um, you know, this has been kind of a meme in crypto for a while. There's been a bunch of, there were a bunch of ICOs around this back in 2017, and kind of combining crypto and messaging has always been an idea. Um, and I kind of, Dismissed the idea. I didn't really get it until, um, this year when, um, I used, uh, a messaging product within Coinbase wallet. And the magic moment that I think is, is, um, is pretty interesting and kind of crypto native is that any, uh, Ethereum address or Solana address or whatever you want to call it, uh, any crypto address can have a messaging component and you can, um, Um, you can have a conversation with someone that persists across applications. So I messaged someone on Coinbase Wallet, um, with my address that I was logged into on Coinbase Wallet, and, um, I am also logged into, uh, Converse, which is another, um, you know, app, uh, on-chain messaging app, and the message persists across two applications. So I, I now think, uh, every wallet is going to have a messaging component. Um, and, and on-chain messaging is going to be a big, um, you know, crypto use case eventually.

AI assessment note: “I kind of, Dismissed the idea. I didn't really get it until, um, this year”

Q Your nation never fails to stagger me. Like, really, I love the way there's, you know, leaders of the free world. That is fucking terrifying. Um, ok, good. I'm glad we covered that. Um, is Trump good for crypto?

A That remains to be seen. A lot of people think no. Um, you know, he tweeted in 2018, uh, cryptocurrencies are bad, um, something like that. Uh, one of his, you know, standard mean tweets. My feeling is that, um, back then he wasn't really paying attention to it. He, he had some authoritarians that were working for him, Steve Mnuchin, um, and, uh, Gary Cohn that kind of crafted that, that belief. Um, and I think now if you look at, I mean, this week, I don't know, Harry, if you saw, I'm sure Kyle did, um, he dropped an NFT collection, the, the Trump mugshots collection of NFTs. He's selling NFTs on Polygon. Just, if you think about Trump, you know, we know, we know he loves memes, we know he loves attention. I, I personally think, you know, he's going to be leaning into crypto in a big way in 24, 24, that's my prediction, but we'll see.

AI assessment note: “I personally think, you know, he's going to be leaning into crypto”

Q question. I always listen to interviewers, and I'm like, God, these questions, what, and then I kind of end up asking because I'm just interested. When you think about kind of that resurgence of NFTs, reinflation of trading activities on OpenSea, is that one year? Three years? 10 years? I know it's a cheap question, but I'm just intrigued what broad landscape of time you think it comes back in.

A I would say three to five years, you know, it's likely before that, but, um, you know, with a high degree of, of conviction, I would say three to five years. I mean, NFTs aren't going away, right? Like the, even, even the simplest form of, of, of an NFT, which is just visual artwork, um, traditional artwork is massive. And, um, there's a new wave of crypto, uh, rich people that view Uh, crypto art, just like traditional rich people view traditional art. That's already happening, um, in a big way. Um, and even if that is the only thing that happens in NFTs, which I don't think it is, I think NFTs are still gonna be very big, but then you have You know, dynamic NFTs that can change on chain based on certain variables. You have NFTs within games. You have music NFTs. You have all these other directions that NFTs could go that they haven't yet. I think that that's the lens which I view, um, you know, a bull case for NFTs.

AI assessment note: “I would say three to five years”

Q We mentioned that the great returns so far six years in, 5.13 X. How do you think about when's the right time to sell? It's a very difficult thing to do. How do you think about liquidity planning and management?

A I think it's prudent if you have, um, A big winner at the early stage, um, call it series, um, C or beyond, uh, to take money off the table if you can. You know, you can debate about how much, but we, we basically, uh, you know, had some big winners that we, You know, sold somewhere between, uh, 10 and 30% of the position. We invest in things that we believe in over a 10 year period. You know, we're not like selling, um, the majority of our, of our stake in any position after, Uh, five years, but if you have a big winner, I do think it's, it's prudent to, uh, to take cash and return it to your LPs. So that's, that's the approach that we've taken.

AI assessment note: “sold somewhere between, uh, 10 and 30% of the position”

Q And you did make a career out of the space. You joined Coinbase, and then you take the decision that actually, I'm gonna switch sides of the table from operating to, to venture and investing. I'm gonna found one confirmation. Can you just take me to that moment of transition, and why you decided to do one confirmation, and why then?

A Well, frankly, I mean, I got pushed out of Coinbase. Like, I wasn't a, Great, um, employee, I think is the truth. I think I did a lot for Coinbase in the early days. Um, but I wasn't, Coinbase got to a certain point where I wasn't great at kind of office politics and following rules and directions and stuff like that. Um, and, you know, at the time, uh, you know, I, I technically, um, you know, left and that was how it was framed to the company and things like that, but I effectively got pushed out. And at the time that was very painful. Um, right. That was probably one of the lowest points, um, in my career, I would say, because I believe so much in both the space and the company. Um, and I put a lot into the company as well. Um, I think it was a great thing ultimately because it just, it wasn't the right fit, but at the time it was like, shit, what am I going to do now? I love this space. I know Coinbase is going to be A billion dollar company. Um, did I just fumble the bag? Um, you know, what, what the, what the hell am I going to do next? Right. You know, it was at that point that, um, you know, I decided that, uh, that venture would be, uh, you know, what I could be world-class at. At Coinbase, I was really good when it was just, uh, you know, a few people figuring shit out. I had, you know, really good ideas, um, and I could just do stuff. And then once you get within a b…

AI assessment note: “Well, frankly, I mean, I got pushed out of Coinbase.”

Q question. I always listen to interviewers, and I'm like, God, these questions, what, and then I kind of end up asking because I'm just interested. When you think about kind of that resurgence of NFTs, reinflation of trading activities on OpenSea, is that one year? Three years? 10 years? I know it's a cheap question, but I'm just intrigued what broad landscape of time you think it comes back in.

A I would say three to five years, you know, it's likely before that, but, um, you know, with a high degree of, of conviction, I would say three to five years. I mean, NFTs aren't going away, right? Like the, even, even the simplest form of, of, of an NFT, which is just visual artwork, um, traditional artwork is massive. And, um, there's a new wave of crypto, uh, rich people that view Uh, crypto art, just like traditional rich people view traditional art. That's already happening, um, in a big way. Um, and even if that is the only thing that happens in NFTs, which I don't think it is, I think NFTs are still gonna be very big, but then you have You know, dynamic NFTs that can change on chain based on certain variables. You have NFTs within games. You have music NFTs. You have all these other directions that NFTs could go that they haven't yet. I think that that's the lens which I view, um, you know, a bull case for NFTs.

AI assessment note: “I would say three to five years, you know, it's likely before that”

Q We mentioned that the great returns so far six years in, 5.13 X. How do you think about when's the right time to sell? It's a very difficult thing to do. How do you think about liquidity planning and management?

A I think it's prudent if you have, um, A big winner at the early stage, um, call it series, um, C or beyond, uh, to take money off the table if you can. You know, you can debate about how much, but we, we basically, uh, you know, had some big winners that we, You know, sold somewhere between, uh, 10 and 30% of the position. We invest in things that we believe in over a 10 year period. You know, we're not like selling, um, the majority of our, of our stake in any position after, Uh, five years, but if you have a big winner, I do think it's, it's prudent to, uh, to take cash and return it to your LPs. So that's, that's the approach that we've taken.

AI assessment note: “call it series, um, C or beyond, uh, to take money off the table”

Q Do you think venture investors should publish their returns annually, biannually?

A Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, I mean, I, to me, it's one of like the fakest parts of, of venture capital. It's like everyone, it feels like everyone's competing for prestige. Everyone talks about fund size or, you know, is trying to get press. These kind of vanity, um, you know, metrics that, um, that aren't really related at all to What the job really of a venture investor is, which is to deliver, you know, good returns for their LPs. You know, the reason that one size is the metric is because, you know, the incumbents want it to be that way. The incumbents who they they've got great relationships with these institutional LPs that allow them to raise these big funds. If you know, everyone viewed Fund performance as the, you know, the, the, the metric of success, these, the big, you know, incumbents wouldn't have the, the prestige that they have. You know, there's also the, the, the regulatory issue, which I think is, um, You know, there's ways that you can be transparent with, and also make sure that you're, um, you know, you're, you're not violating any, uh, you know, regulation issues, but that there's also historically, you know, regulation has caused venture to be very kind of private and secretive and not as transparent as I think it would be beneficial.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, I mean, I, to me, it's one of like the fakest”

Q What's a fraud of perception? Sorry, just so I understand that.

A Outwardly, um, signaling prestige and inwardly, um, you know, in reality, being very different, um, and not, uh, you know, maybe having a bad character or being, uh, focused on soulless greed for, uh, money or attention. It's like everyone involved in that, um, I think it's like a kind of vortex of, of soulless greed for, for money and attention. And that's what was happening with FTX, right? Like if you ask investors, oh, um, you know, what, why are you involved in FTX? Sam is so good at execution, right? That's what, that's what was said. He's like, he's so good at, um, you know, getting media attention and working with regulators and politicians and all that. Um, and you know, why, why was that the case? That, that was the surface level perception. Uh, why was that the case? Because he was buying off, uh, politicians and, and, and regulators and, and, and media, right? Um, and also, you know, launched a token and, and, and, um, in a way that wasn't, um, very, uh, moral. So, and, and, and hyping tokens and things like that. If you look at the surface level, there were all these good things going on. There really wasn't, and a lot of, People within crypto recognize that, but that's kind of the, the fraud of perception that I'm talking about.

AI assessment note: “Outwardly, um, signaling prestige and inwardly, um, you know, in reality, being very different”

Q I'm fascinated by that one. I, I, to be fair, I also was not expecting two firms that I have not actually heard of. So, uh, that's fantastic. Let's move towards your favorite consumer brand, and why them?

A You don't like NFTs, Harry, right? So this might be, uh, surprising to you as well, but one of the things I love about NFTs is that, um, they're effectively user-owned brands. And so my, my favorite consumer brand, which again, this is a PFP project that you might not think of as, as a brand, but CryptoPunks, right? CryptoPunks is effectively a user owned brand. There's not a ton that's been done with the brand yet. Um, other than just there's 10,000 of these, um, you know, eight bit pixelated characters that all have different traits, but there's a really strong community. I love the artwork. I love the community. And I think, um, over a long period of time, there's going to be increasingly interesting things that come out of this consumer brand. So CryptoPunks is my favorite consumer brand.

AI assessment note: “my favorite consumer brand, which again, this is a PFP project... CryptoPunks”

Q the fund forcing people to do certain things. You know, when I speak to LPs, everyone says, well, you know, every crypto fund right now is downsizing, giving money back, the next fund sizes won't be the same. I wanted to get, this is from, like, Very traditional USRP. So I wanted to get your perspective inside first. Should they downsize in terms of the fund sizes that they raise?

A A hundred percent. Um, I, I mean, this is again, a generalization, but I think way too much money was raised. You know, you had people raise billion dollar funds that just had no unique insights or, um, you know, no investing prowess really, um, or anything like that, but they, You know, had a, uh, you know, a brand name and access to institutions, whatever it is. So, and, and institutions just, you know, had, had FOMO and wanted to deploy, or are they going to give money back? Are they just going to milk management fees and, and, um, deliver poor returns to LPs? I mean, it plays out, um, over time, but I, I certainly think there, there is, um, there, there are massive funds and, you know, maybe They'll, some of them will just put it in, in Bitcoin and ETH, and maybe that will just work. We'll see. Um, like I think a strategy, you know, a dishonest, but probably, um, successful strategy for one of these billion dollar fund managers would be to, you know, pitch to LPs that you're investing in, you know, bleeding edge crypto that's gonna, gonna push the space forward. And then decide to just deploy it all into Bitcoin and ETH. Um, and if someone does that, um, I think they'll probably, you know, they'll still be dishonest, but they'll be successful and make a lot of money.

AI assessment note: “A hundred percent. Um, I, I mean, this is again, a generalization”

Q the fund forcing people to do certain things. You know, when I speak to LPs, everyone says, well, you know, every crypto fund right now is downsizing, giving money back, the next fund sizes won't be the same. I wanted to get, this is from, like, Very traditional USRP. So I wanted to get your perspective inside first. Should they downsize in terms of the fund sizes that they raise?

A A hundred percent. Um, I, I mean, this is again, a generalization, but I think way too much money was raised. You know, you had people raise billion dollar funds that just had no unique insights or, um, you know, no investing prowess really, um, or anything like that, but they, You know, had a, uh, you know, a brand name and access to institutions, whatever it is. So, and, and institutions just, you know, had, had FOMO and wanted to deploy, or are they going to give money back? Are they just going to milk management fees and, and, um, deliver poor returns to LPs? I mean, it plays out, um, over time, but I, I certainly think there, there is, um, there, there are massive funds and, you know, maybe They'll, some of them will just put it in, in Bitcoin and ETH, and maybe that will just work. We'll see. Um, like I think a strategy, you know, a dishonest, but probably, um, successful strategy for one of these billion dollar fund managers would be to, you know, pitch to LPs that you're investing in, you know, bleeding edge crypto that's gonna, gonna push the space forward. And then decide to just deploy it all into Bitcoin and ETH. Um, and if someone does that, um, I think they'll probably, you know, they'll still be dishonest, but they'll be successful and make a lot of money.

AI assessment note: “A hundred percent. Um, I, I mean, this is again, a generalization”

Q nature of human following when it comes to deals. So I totally get you there. Can I ask in terms of like people following what other people do, You obviously see that when you look at volumes in terms of purchases on trading platforms. You're a very early investor in OpenSea. How do you think about how do we bullish on OpenSea or not, given volumes being where they are?

A I mean, I haven't talked much about what we fundamentally do as a firm, which is invest in kind of authentic First of its kind, uh, products that, you know, we, we think are pushing the space forward, um, and authenticity is, is, is the thing that really matters. You know, authenticity matters maybe not as much in the, um, in the short term, um, but it matters a lot in the long term because it's kind of a, a sign of, um, a true believer, someone that's, you know, in it for more than just the, the short term money and attention. Um, so we really love kind of these authentic projects and, you know, OpenSea was the authentic, um, you know, NFT marketplace. That's not to say that, um, you know, their success is, uh, is a given moving forward, but, you know, for, for, for OpenSea, um, I think if NFTs, um, become the massive asset class that I think they, they will, OpenSea as the kind of on-ramp You know, into NFTs is, is a, is a massive business. So that's my kind of long-term, very high level thesis on OpenSea that, that really hasn't changed since we, we started. And again, we're, we're early stage investors. We're not as much making judgments about, you know, was OpenSea a great, uh, investment at thirteen billion? Um, like, Um, you know, the last round was, you know, I, I don't know about that, but, um, do I think it's going to be a, an important product in the world, um, in, u…

AI assessment note: “do I think it's going to be a, an important product in the world... Yes”

Q What did you do then? I think cause that, this next step is the difference between, sorry, it sounds awful, but winners and losers. Losers cry and go to their friends and say, I was unfairly cheated. What did you do?

A I think I came close to, to crying. Honestly, it's like, it was, it was very painful. You know, my, my wife remembers, um, I'm sure. Yeah. It took about 24 hours. Um, and it's like, you, you, you feel like shit. Um, you know, you blame other people or, or, or things like that. You know, I certainly thought about like leaving the industry. Um, but at the end of the day, it's like my belief, um, in, in, in crypto more than anything else. It's like, You know, led me to the, the, the thinking, like, you need to use this to level up. At the end of the day, it was my, um, you know, mistake, uh, you know, they, they caught me slipping, right? So it was like, you need to use it to, to level up and to motivate you to, to go bigger. That was kind of the lesson, and it's still, I mean, this is still an issue in crypto, um, you know, obviously hacking, and we all know someone that's gotten, um, you know, phished or clicked a MetaMask link or something like that, and I still, You know, I have friends that come to me all the time. It's kind of a big unknown secret. Um, you know, unspoken secret, I should say in, in crypto, like how many people, uh, actually get hacked and no one really talks about it, but, um, but yeah, you basically just have to use it to, to motivate you and to level up, to go bigger. So that's, that's what I tried to do.

AI assessment note: “you need to use this to level up and to motivate you to go bigger”

Q Oh yeah, like years before, like, 2009. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Ok, so play this game. If you were to put luck and skill Which would you say, if you were to put numbers against it, your success is?

A I think it was about 90% skill. 10% luck. I think it's, it's, um, Politically correct to say, oh, there's a lot of luck. I think a lot of really successful people say that. I feel like I made my own luck in a lot of ways. I feel like I had a lot of bad luck that I, uh, persisted through. It was my, uh, determination and kind of grit, um, more than anything. And that, that is, that is a big skill. I think having that it's not skill in the sense that I'm, you know, smarter than everyone else or, or anything like that. But I think Uh, determination and grit and belief. Um, you know, at the end of the day, I, I think belief, uh, having self-belief, um, is a skill. Again, it's not saying I'm smarter or, or things like that, but it's, it's like having these unique traits that I think anyone can have, but, but you need to have belief first and foremost, so.

AI assessment note: “I think it was about 90% skill. 10% luck.”

Q What's a fraud of perception? Sorry, just so I understand that.

A Outwardly, um, signaling prestige and inwardly, um, you know, in reality, being very different, um, and not, uh, you know, maybe having a bad character or being, uh, focused on soulless greed for, uh, money or attention. It's like everyone involved in that, um, I think it's like a kind of vortex of, of soulless greed for, for money and attention. And that's what was happening with FTX, right? Like if you ask investors, oh, um, you know, what, why are you involved in FTX? Sam is so good at execution, right? That's what, that's what was said. He's like, he's so good at, um, you know, getting media attention and working with regulators and politicians and all that. Um, and you know, why, why was that the case? That, that was the surface level perception. Uh, why was that the case? Because he was buying off, uh, politicians and, and, and regulators and, and, and media, right? Um, and also, you know, launched a token and, and, and, um, in a way that wasn't, um, very, uh, moral. So, and, and, and hyping tokens and things like that. If you look at the surface level, there were all these good things going on. There really wasn't, and a lot of, People within crypto recognize that, but that's kind of the, the fraud of perception that I'm talking about.

AI assessment note: “Outwardly, um, signaling prestige and inwardly, um, you know, in reality, being very different”

Q Are crypto rounds collaborative? I remember talking to Avichal at Electric, and he was like, the lovely thing about crypto is like, there are a lot more collaborative rounds than traditional venture. Are they really? Because, to me, if it's an equity raise, there's still an allotted allocation, and you have to compete.

A Um, I think it depends. I, I think it's, it feels similar to venture. I mean, there's some firms that, uh, want to take the whole round, and, um, And not collaborate. There's other firms that, um, that like to collaborate a lot. I think, um, I don't know. At the end of the day, it depends on the founder. I think some, a lot of founders, like, it also depends on size, on fund size. Like, one of the reasons we like to keep in a, a relatively small fund size is like, we don't need to take the whole round, and there are a lot of great angels to have on, on board. Um, so I think, I don't know, I wouldn't, I don't feel strongly that it's much different than a traditional venture. I think that's kind of a narrative that some people Believe, but I don't know.

AI assessment note: “I don't feel strongly that it's much different than a traditional venture.”

Q Um, uh, final one for you, Nick, 10 years time. It's 20, 33. Where do you and One Confirmation want to be then? What type of firm do you want to build? You could build the next multi-billion dollar crypto firm. You can stay small. You can expand team. What do you want One Confirmation to be, and who do you want to be?

A I really kind of want to be doing much of the same that I'm doing now, but I just want, um, crypto to be Much more important in the world. If we've invested in a lot, in a lot more products that, uh, you know, have broadened crypto to many more users, you know, billions of people are using crypto. There's still a lot of innovation and stuff, you know, that's happening. We want to continue to be, um, kind of bleeding edge crypto investors that are investing in the new stuff. A lot of people that are, that, that come and go, um, I am in crypto for my lifetime. I, uh, just want to be kind of doing What I'm doing now, but, um, but with crypto being, you know, much more important, you know, I don't have podcast hosts like you that are still, uh, questioning me about NFTs, right?

AI assessment note: “I really kind of want to be doing much of the same that I'm doing now”

Q Do you think venture investors should publish their returns annually, biannually?

A Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, I mean, I, to me, it's one of like the fakest parts of, of venture capital. It's like everyone, it feels like everyone's competing for prestige. Everyone talks about fund size or, you know, is trying to get press. These kind of vanity, um, you know, metrics that, um, that aren't really related at all to What the job really of a venture investor is, which is to deliver, you know, good returns for their LPs. You know, the reason that one size is the metric is because, you know, the incumbents want it to be that way. The incumbents who they they've got great relationships with these institutional LPs that allow them to raise these big funds. If you know, everyone viewed Fund performance as the, you know, the, the, the metric of success, these, the big, you know, incumbents wouldn't have the, the prestige that they have. You know, there's also the, the, the regulatory issue, which I think is, um, You know, there's ways that you can be transparent with, and also make sure that you're, um, you know, you're, you're not violating any, uh, you know, regulation issues, but that there's also historically, you know, regulation has caused venture to be very kind of private and secretive and not as transparent as I think it would be beneficial.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, a hundred percent.”

Q Um, and did you have the conviction then?

A It's harder to have conviction when you're just starting off. So, um, it takes lessons like this. Um, so yeah, I think we did have some conviction, but, um, part of the reason we were doing that at the time is cause, um, you know, we, we didn't really Fully believe as much as we should in kind of, you know, our investment thesis. And we thought it would be a good thing to, you know, for relationships and stuff like that to bring, you know, deals to our LPs. Right. And so that was, that was the thinking, you know, in some ways that, that I think a lot of first time fund managers do that. And, um, that could be a good decision, by the way, it's like, it's good to, um, build Strong relationships and, um, and to help other people get into deals and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, when it comes to like generating returns for LPs, um, which again is what we're trying to do in, in venture. It's like, that was not the, the optimal decision, um, for that.

AI assessment note: “so yeah, I think we did have some conviction, but”

Q With hype cycles in crypto, did you see the transition from hardcore lovers of crypto founding companies to tourists who did crypto because it was hot? Did you feel that transition?

A Yeah, a hundred percent. Every bull market, you get that, right? Um, you get, there's people that are in it for different reasons, right? I think, and everyone to some extent is in it for the incentives and the money, right? It's not to say that's not a big part of it, but I think there's, there's a spectrum by which you can be focused on, on money. And I think there's a healthy spectrum, um, for, you know, founders that, um, you know, want to Be billionaires and make a lot of money. Um, but also in doing so provide, you know, real value to the world. And then there's also founders that, that want to do that, um, while just extracting value to the world. Right. Um, and there's a wide spectrum on that.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, a hundred percent. Every bull market, you get that, right?”

Q Can I be blunt Nick? They're the ones, they're the ones you're always labeled as the pump and dumpers.

A I hear you on that. Um, and again, I think some of that may be more recently, um, due to fund size, they just have to invest in these token projects. I'm talking more historically. I think, you know, if you look at who's a winner, Um, in crypto, like Chris Dixon is undoubtedly a huge winner in crypto. Um, but yeah, I think more recently Fundsize, um, has probably caused them to do some of the stuff that people, um, you know, accuse them for, which, which again, I, I don't, I don't think they're dumping. Um, they, they have to, they have to be very careful about that, but I do think they are investing in some of these token projects that, um, Are getting hyped up, um, to be dumped later. The truth is always nuanced, right? Um, like there, there's, and so some of these narratives that you hear are over exaggerated in, in, in different ways. That's what I'd say.

AI assessment note: “I don't think they're dumping”

Q Can I be blunt Nick? They're the ones, they're the ones you're always labeled as the pump and dumpers.

A I hear you on that. Um, and again, I think some of that may be more recently, um, due to fund size, they just have to invest in these token projects. I'm talking more historically. I think, you know, if you look at who's a winner, Um, in crypto, like Chris Dixon is undoubtedly a huge winner in crypto. Um, but yeah, I think more recently Fundsize, um, has probably caused them to do some of the stuff that people, um, you know, accuse them for, which, which again, I, I don't, I don't think they're dumping. Um, they, they have to, they have to be very careful about that, but I do think they are investing in some of these token projects that, um, Are getting hyped up, um, to be dumped later. The truth is always nuanced, right? Um, like there, there's, and so some of these narratives that you hear are over exaggerated in, in, in different ways. That's what I'd say.

AI assessment note: “I don't think they're dumping. Um, they, they have to be very careful”

Q about you in many different ways. He gave me pros and cons. Uh, which was fun, but one of the pros he said was your incredible independence of thought, which kind of goes back to the mimeticness or mimetic nature of humankind and how you avoid that. Bluntly, that is a contrarian approach to NFTs today. How do you stay independent minded when worlds and narratives are so strong today?

A I don't know. I've kind of always been Uh, a contrarian, um, in some sense, like I think about even like in high school, I didn't really care what other people were doing or thought. Like I did, I, a good example of this, uh, is, is drinking, right? Like I didn't, uh, I never drank, um, in high school or, or college really. I think of drinking as something that's also like super mimetic. I mean, maybe for some people it makes them feel good. And this goes back to the biological versus what's, what's biological and what's, what's mimetic. It's like, maybe for some people drinking makes them feel good. I think for a lot of people drinking actually makes them feel bad, but they do it anyway because other people do it. This is another tangent we don't have to go in, but to answer your question, I've just always, um, I think thought about things a little differently and wasn't really influenced by, uh, by what people thought. I think my parents, um, just raised me very well. I never, I've, I've always felt, um, mentally strong and never felt really insecure about anything. I think insecurity can, can Uh, cause people to, like, fill a hole, to, to be searching for more money, or more attention, or things like that, and I've just kind of always stayed grounded, so I don't know, maybe those are some reasons, but.

AI assessment note: “I think my parents, um, just raised me very well. I never, I've, I've always felt, um, mentally strong”