The Exchanges

Q So what would an example of that be, though?

A Ok, so an example that I would think about is, When we decided that fashion might replace music as a social lubricant. So when I was growing up, you know, I could go to Nairobi and sing a Michael Jackson song, and a guy who spoke Swahili would sing the same song, and we would bond over that. And then with Spotify, actually, you know, music has become more pervasive, but albums have shifted. The focus on albums is less important, so we were thinking, Maybe fashion becomes that lubricant. Maybe people are going to identify and become part of communities around the brands or around the style that they align to. So that led us to Net-A-Porter and End Clothing and ASOS and Farfetch and GOAT and Anina Bing. And so it was really helpful to have this crazy idea, um, about, about fashion replacing music.

AI assessment note: “an example that I would think about is, When we decided that fashion might replace”

Q And is this not a game of anomalies that you mentioned Spotify? I mean, I think Daniel has been quite open before about saying, you know, he went to Series A investors and almost said, you have a CEO replacement because I'm not too keen on this job. Like, the best are often anomalies.

A Right. No, I agree with you. I mean, I think that in the case of, in the case of Spotify, for instance, actually, you know, I was able to know that Daniel was exceptional from the work that he did for a previous startup In his spare time when he was still a high school student, he, he built the back end in, in a matter of weeks. Uh, so I knew that he was extraordinary. That was a big lesson is if the person's extraordinary, throw all theses out the window and just back the, back the founder. But it was really more a case in, in that situation of having dealt with so many music Opportunities, and they were so challenging, you know, selling Last.fm to CBS, being an investor in SoundCloud that wasn't quite clear what they were, being an investor in Juiced, which was a shit show, um, that by the time he came about, you know, we just, I, we didn't have the, we didn't have the conviction to, to throw away all of our, uh, preconceived notions and just back him.

AI assessment note: “Right. No, I agree with you. I mean, I think that in the case of Spotify”

Q So what would an example of that be, though?

A Ok, so an example that I would think about is, When we decided that fashion might replace music as a social lubricant. So when I was growing up, you know, I could go to Nairobi and sing a Michael Jackson song, and a guy who spoke Swahili would sing the same song, and we would bond over that. And then with Spotify, actually, you know, music has become more pervasive, but albums have shifted. The focus on albums is less important, so we were thinking, Maybe fashion becomes that lubricant. Maybe people are going to identify and become part of communities around the brands or around the style that they align to. So that led us to Net-A-Porter and End Clothing and ASOS and Farfetch and GOAT and Anina Bing. And so it was really helpful to have this crazy idea, um, about, about fashion replacing music.

AI assessment note: “So that led us to Net-A-Porter and End Clothing and ASOS”

Q And is this not a game of anomalies that you mentioned Spotify? I mean, I think Daniel has been quite open before about saying, you know, he went to Series A investors and almost said, you have a CEO replacement because I'm not too keen on this job. Like, the best are often anomalies.

A Right. No, I agree with you. I mean, I think that in the case of, in the case of Spotify, for instance, actually, you know, I was able to know that Daniel was exceptional from the work that he did for a previous startup In his spare time when he was still a high school student, he, he built the back end in, in a matter of weeks. Uh, so I knew that he was extraordinary. That was a big lesson is if the person's extraordinary, throw all theses out the window and just back the, back the founder. But it was really more a case in, in that situation of having dealt with so many music Opportunities, and they were so challenging, you know, selling Last.fm to CBS, being an investor in SoundCloud that wasn't quite clear what they were, being an investor in Juiced, which was a shit show, um, that by the time he came about, you know, we just, I, we didn't have the, we didn't have the conviction to, to throw away all of our, uh, preconceived notions and just back him.

AI assessment note: “if the person's extraordinary, throw all theses out the window and just back the founder”

Q But do you think because it was earlier in your career, it was more important to you not to have a big loss?

A It's possible, but it was really more the fact that I, it was one of those It was, okay, so great question. As I reflect on it, it was a big check that I had written. It was a growth investment. I had pounded the table on it, and not only did I, I got full support, unanimous support, so it felt good in the first round, but then I came back because the company needed more money, and I pounded the table there, and the partners were like, hmm, You sure about this? And I did get a positive vote, but it was not the high average that I got on the first one, and so I felt responsible to the partners that I didn't put good money after bad, and not only did I put good money after bad, but the opportunity cost of spending time trying to turn around nasty gal versus focusing on the next Great opportunity. Was very expensive.

AI assessment note: “It's possible, but it was really more the fact that”

Q What is your biggest takeaway from those? From, like, I, going back to analyzing successes and failures and learning from them, when you think about, that's kind of what I'm going for, which is like, when you think about your biggest success, what is that? And then when you analyze it, what are the big takeaways from it?

A Big successes, you know, King was an amazing lesson in the sense that King was a company where, uh, the market, um, Really collapsed on them. So at first it was a, it was skill-based games on the web. That didn't happen. Then it was skill-based games on mobile, but it wasn't quite working. Then they had to reinvent themselves and be on Facebook, mobile games channel, and they had some successes there. It's such a great lesson of an incredible team, like Ricardo, Sebastian, um, and then eventually Stefan, who you know well, coming in and, and just grinding away at excellence. That was an amazing story of success. When I think about it, um, it was also a lesson for Index because, you know, we wanted to lead that round, and then, um, The Apex folks who didn't really play in our, in our space came in and offered a much bigger, uh, valuation, Michael Chalfin and Mike Risman. Uh, and then we decided to actually make an exception to the rule and still put in a smaller check. So we were going to lead with fifteen million, which at the time was a huge Series A, and they came in with twenty-five million, and we had an opportunity To put in an incremental five million at their valuation, and we decided to hold our breath and do it. Um, and it was, it was a clearly great, great decision. That was really based on the team.

AI assessment note: “King was an amazing lesson in the sense that King was a company where”

Q Can you talk to me about that and what that actually looks like in reality?

A I think it's, in, in the case of Index, it is, it is a story of discipline, and it's a story about manufacturing discipline in as many different ways as possible, and so for us, creating investment theses are a way of making sure that we are building conviction, and that we can support the conviction that we have, and so everyone is encouraged to have a major and a minor, and when it comes to investment thesis, On the major or the minor, it's taking a new approach at looking at a specific area. Whether we're right or wrong is actually less important. It's a way of sifting through opportunities and figuring out what we're looking for, and whether once we see it, we're going to be able to pounce or not. So having that clarity around the thesis is helpful.

AI assessment note: “everyone is encouraged to have a major and a minor”

Q Does that go against strong conviction or strong opinions loosely held?

A Yeah, because, you know, I think especially in this industry, right, we've been trained to think, uh, to think through first principle thinking, to be analytical, To think of all these other signals that either are the primary driver for our investment thesis, or are the primary support for our investment thesis. Um, and I'm sort of saying actually, you know, what is the first impact? What is the first reaction that you have to the founder, to the opportunity? How does it make you feel? Can you build on that? Like, all of that other stuff is actually gonna help you rationalize one way or another, but try and keep it as far away from your decision making as possible.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, because, you know, I think especially in this industry”

Q Yeah, absolutely. Can I ask, are there any commonalities when you look back at the companies that have gone global and geographically scaled, are there any commonalities and maybe mistakes that you see happening and how they approach the expansion?

A It's still completely unclear that more money equates to being more successful. You know, as much as we are super excited about these mega funds and what the implications are and war chests of money, In our experience, the more money you have, the more lax you are, the more likely you are to make repeated mistakes across multiple places at the same time. So that's one commonality is just raising too much money too early and not really being a great steward of the money that you've raised. That's a clear commonality. Another one is not really focusing on developing a diverse And what I mean by diverse team is backgrounds, ages, obviously genders, experience, culture, so that you're sheltering yourself from the groupthink that sets in when you hire people from the same university or the same generation with very similar experiences. So early on being open and aware that different backgrounds are going to contribute in Solving different challenges is really helpful, and that's a commonality that we see in a lot of our companies is really focused on just hiring as much talent as early as possible that they trust and that they understand, and so the folks that they bring on tend to be just too redundant, and so they miss out on some of the opportunities that they otherwise would have.

AI assessment note: “one commonality is just raising too much money too early and not really being a great steward”

Q this is where I love doing the show, because I essentially just use it mercilessly for advice from great people like you. For me and Fred, we always say that we don't like to take founder risk, and we don't like to take market timing risk. How do you think about market timing risk, and is that something that you're maybe willing to go further on the risk curve for?

A Probably, I mean, I think those are, those are wise ideas to focus on people and product market fit. You know, I do think it depends on the segment, and I think that it also depends on whether you're going to be investing in a theme that you think is likely to happen versus trying to be opportunistic and pinpoint that one company that is going to be successful. In certain cases, We invest in a theme like Jan and Neil and Mark and our team have been very proactive in investing in fintech. And so we decided we're not going to call the company that's going to be successful, but we're going to invest across a whole roster of companies because we think that financial services are going to shift. So the timing was less important. If you're going to do a pinpoint investment in one company or On one theme, then I think you have to get that fit, that timing incredibly right.

AI assessment note: “In certain cases, We invest in a theme... So the timing was less important.”

Q this is where I love doing the show, because I essentially just use it mercilessly for advice from great people like you. For me and Fred, we always say that we don't like to take founder risk, and we don't like to take market timing risk. How do you think about market timing risk, and is that something that you're maybe willing to go further on the risk curve for?

A Probably, I mean, I think those are, those are wise ideas to focus on people and product market fit. You know, I do think it depends on the segment, and I think that it also depends on whether you're going to be investing in a theme that you think is likely to happen versus trying to be opportunistic and pinpoint that one company that is going to be successful. In certain cases, We invest in a theme like Jan and Neil and Mark and our team have been very proactive in investing in fintech. And so we decided we're not going to call the company that's going to be successful, but we're going to invest across a whole roster of companies because we think that financial services are going to shift. So the timing was less important. If you're going to do a pinpoint investment in one company or On one theme, then I think you have to get that fit, that timing incredibly right.

AI assessment note: “invest across a whole roster of companies... So the timing was less important.”

Q Yeah, absolutely. Can I ask, are there any commonalities when you look back at the companies that have gone global and geographically scaled, are there any commonalities and maybe mistakes that you see happening and how they approach the expansion?

A It's still completely unclear that more money equates to being more successful. You know, as much as we are super excited about these mega funds and what the implications are and war chests of money, In our experience, the more money you have, the more lax you are, the more likely you are to make repeated mistakes across multiple places at the same time. So that's one commonality is just raising too much money too early and not really being a great steward of the money that you've raised. That's a clear commonality. Another one is not really focusing on developing a diverse And what I mean by diverse team is backgrounds, ages, obviously genders, experience, culture, so that you're sheltering yourself from the groupthink that sets in when you hire people from the same university or the same generation with very similar experiences. So early on being open and aware that different backgrounds are going to contribute in Solving different challenges is really helpful, and that's a commonality that we see in a lot of our companies is really focused on just hiring as much talent as early as possible that they trust and that they understand, and so the folks that they bring on tend to be just too redundant, and so they miss out on some of the opportunities that they otherwise would have.

AI assessment note: “So that's one commonality is just raising too much money too early”

Q I mean, final, final question for the quickfire is, there's always a question in terms of, do you spend your time with the winners, the outperformers, and help them hire that VP of sales, which can do so much, or do you spend your time with the more struggling portfolio companies? Um, how do you think about how you spend your time between the two very binary outcomes?

A I mean, I would say that this is the biggest difference between a venture capitalist and an operator. You have to figure out how to spend the most amount of time with the companies that need you least, and the least amount of time with companies that need you most. Without being mercenary and unhelpful. And so how do you manage that? Because if you're a great operator, you're going to roll up your sleeves and you're going to make everything successful. You're going to do everything in your power to make it successful. But sometimes the companies, it's quite clear that they're going to fly into a mountain. They're just not going to be able to pull up and get over that mountain. But there are some great people there. There are some great learnings. And so how do you convince them that It might be time to close shop and focus on something new. While the ones that are rocket ships don't necessarily need a lot of your help, because they're going to be a rocket ship regardless of whether you're involved or not. But back to that point, like, if I can have one little contribution, that might have very significant impact on the results.

AI assessment note: “spend the most amount of time with the companies that need you least”

Q What is your biggest takeaway from those? From, like, I, going back to analyzing successes and failures and learning from them, when you think about, that's kind of what I'm going for, which is like, when you think about your biggest success, what is that? And then when you analyze it, what are the big takeaways from it?

A Big successes, you know, King was an amazing lesson in the sense that King was a company where, uh, the market, um, Really collapsed on them. So at first it was a, it was skill-based games on the web. That didn't happen. Then it was skill-based games on mobile, but it wasn't quite working. Then they had to reinvent themselves and be on Facebook, mobile games channel, and they had some successes there. It's such a great lesson of an incredible team, like Ricardo, Sebastian, um, and then eventually Stefan, who you know well, coming in and, and just grinding away at excellence. That was an amazing story of success. When I think about it, um, it was also a lesson for Index because, you know, we wanted to lead that round, and then, um, The Apex folks who didn't really play in our, in our space came in and offered a much bigger, uh, valuation, Michael Chalfin and Mike Risman. Uh, and then we decided to actually make an exception to the rule and still put in a smaller check. So we were going to lead with fifteen million, which at the time was a huge Series A, and they came in with twenty-five million, and we had an opportunity To put in an incremental five million at their valuation, and we decided to hold our breath and do it. Um, and it was, it was a clearly great, great decision. That was really based on the team.

AI assessment note: “It's such a great lesson of an incredible team”

Q Where is index in 10 years time in an ideal world?

A I really would love to see that index in 10 years has continued to progress on a number of fronts. First of all, that the partnership is not much bigger than it is today, that our funds are not much bigger than it is today, but that our returns have only gotten better because The caliber of partner that we have is better because we've hired better people and they've learned from better investors and we're seeing better companies and we have a better mechanism of, of, of really understanding who the best entrepreneurs are that match our culture and that we're really good at winning and, and doing the, you know, sourcing, winning, uh, operating and exiting side. So I, You know, I would like to think that Index might have one more office in 10 years. We open an office every 10 years, at least that's what we've done. So maybe we'll have another GEO in 10 years, and we'll have Where would the next year be? I don't know. I mean, that's up to the partnership. Um, and I'm, I'm one voice, and I shouldn't be there in 10 years. If I'm still there, I'm doing something wrong, or they, or they're doing something wrong. So I'd like to see that the baton has been passed, and that the folks are taking Index to Higher and higher territory, but maintaining what we're all about.

AI assessment note: “I really would love to see that index in 10 years has continued to progress”

Q Are you willing to take market timing risk? Different investors have different appetites as to market timing risk. How do you feel about it?

A It's critical. So, uh, no credit for being too early. However, What has been a truism is that companies that are excellent can go out in any market. So I don't really believe in these IPO windows for exceptional companies. I think that the best companies can go out in any market, and they can even do stupid things. I mean, you know, Google went out in the worst of markets and did a Dutch auction, which there was absolutely no need for. So many entrepreneurs want to reinvent Wall Street and the mechanism of going public In a similar way than they're doing, they're taking on their, their sector. I wish they would leave that alone. That is such a distraction. But I do believe that the best companies At that stage when they are ready to go public, can go public in any market.

AI assessment note: “I don't really believe in these IPO windows for exceptional companies.”

Q which is like the large money providers, which is all the big brands that we know who scaled into Asset gatherers, not disparaging me, but just raising huge funds and boutiques, which is your specialist providers, like a benchmark, a USV, even a Ribbit, which although large, but like is very fintech focused and absolutely owns their niche. Do you agree with that? You're either massive or you're a boutique.

A I mean, of course, we're trying to wedge ourselves in between, right? That's the plan, but I agree with you. I think there, there will be asset aggregators and artisans, and what we're trying to be, what we talk about internally, is scaled artisans. So the, the parallel that, you know, obviously we have to come up with examples of how to think about it, and I do have Swiss roots, right? I grew up in Switzerland, and, and Index started in Switzerland. So we were thinking that the Apple watch Is actually the most successful luxury watch out there. It has many more SKUs than Rolex that sells a million watches. However, Rolex actually sells more from a, from a, from a profit standpoint. Rolex and used Rolexes are a much better business than Apple. So maybe we could, maybe we could be the scaled artisans.

AI assessment note: “we're trying to wedge ourselves in between, right? That's the plan, but I agree”

Q which is like the large money providers, which is all the big brands that we know who scaled into Asset gatherers, not disparaging me, but just raising huge funds and boutiques, which is your specialist providers, like a benchmark, a USV, even a Ribbit, which although large, but like is very fintech focused and absolutely owns their niche. Do you agree with that? You're either massive or you're a boutique.

A I mean, of course, we're trying to wedge ourselves in between, right? That's the plan, but I agree with you. I think there, there will be asset aggregators and artisans, and what we're trying to be, what we talk about internally, is scaled artisans. So the, the parallel that, you know, obviously we have to come up with examples of how to think about it, and I do have Swiss roots, right? I grew up in Switzerland, and, and Index started in Switzerland. So we were thinking that the Apple watch Is actually the most successful luxury watch out there. It has many more SKUs than Rolex that sells a million watches. However, Rolex actually sells more from a, from a, from a profit standpoint. Rolex and used Rolexes are a much better business than Apple. So maybe we could, maybe we could be the scaled artisans.

AI assessment note: “I agree with you. I think there, there will be asset aggregators and artisans”

Q Can you talk to me about that and what that actually looks like in reality?

A I think it's, in, in the case of Index, it is, it is a story of discipline, and it's a story about manufacturing discipline in as many different ways as possible, and so for us, creating investment theses are a way of making sure that we are building conviction, and that we can support the conviction that we have, and so everyone is encouraged to have a major and a minor, and when it comes to investment thesis, On the major or the minor, it's taking a new approach at looking at a specific area. Whether we're right or wrong is actually less important. It's a way of sifting through opportunities and figuring out what we're looking for, and whether once we see it, we're going to be able to pounce or not. So having that clarity around the thesis is helpful.

AI assessment note: “everyone is encouraged to have a major and a minor”

Q Tell me, what do you know now that you wish you'd known when you joined Index those many years ago?

A I guess I would have, I mean, it's back to what I was saying. I would have liked to make sure that I was focused on what can go right rather than what can go wrong, and make sure that I spent all my time making what can go right happen, and not taking any comfort in having not made investments that would have ended up being bad investments. It's really, for me, it's a challenge because, you know, being in this job is a, it's like a therapy session all the time. So it's a mind trick all the time. So making sure that you're just focused on the winners and helping entrepreneurs make their vision come true really is what merits all my attention.

AI assessment note: “I would have liked to make sure that I was focused on what can go right”

Q Do you think we do or we just don't analyze our successes in the same way?

A I would suspect that we're pretty good at analyzing, at least as a firm, as a partnership, our successes. Probably have a tougher time than we should at celebrating our successes. I think we, we all, you know, anyone who's Competitive and driven, has a difficult time at celebrating successes. It's one of the aspects that I really focus on my entrepreneurs to do, because they're so, they're, they have such a high bar and such high ambition that they forget to really celebrate the success in the journey, and it's a tough journey, so you should really take advantage of those successes. I, I really do believe that we can get better and better at this, at this Craft. And the way that we get better and better is at analyzing our mistakes and as an institution, understanding those mistakes and making sure that we don't do the same thing the next time. As uncomfortable as it may seem, we make sure that we don't fall into the same pattern the next time.

AI assessment note: “I would suspect that we're pretty good at analyzing, at least as a firm”

Q Are you willing to take market timing risk? Different investors have different appetites as to market timing risk. How do you feel about it?

A It's critical. So, uh, no credit for being too early. However, What has been a truism is that companies that are excellent can go out in any market. So I don't really believe in these IPO windows for exceptional companies. I think that the best companies can go out in any market, and they can even do stupid things. I mean, you know, Google went out in the worst of markets and did a Dutch auction, which there was absolutely no need for. So many entrepreneurs want to reinvent Wall Street and the mechanism of going public In a similar way than they're doing, they're taking on their, their sector. I wish they would leave that alone. That is such a distraction. But I do believe that the best companies At that stage when they are ready to go public, can go public in any market.

AI assessment note: “I don't really believe in these IPO windows for exceptional companies.”

Q I'm happy to provide you with ideas. Um, but like, how do you think about when to sell?

A Back to the discipline, our LPs are, we have no family offices and sovereign wealth funds. So, they're all institutions, and they're mostly non-profits, or Their customers are nonprofits. So we're really trying to make sure that our fiduciary responsibility is creating the most amount of returns as possible because their professionals are giving it away. And so we're not going to sacrifice the quality of the company based on anything, but trying to create the most amount of revenue as possible, or sorry, Most amount of, of carry as possible. When it comes to exiting, it, it really clarifies things, right? Like we're just trying to make sure that we don't believe our own BS. We don't get emotional about our own entrepreneurs and that we stay true to creating the, the biggest exits possible or getting to a decision of exiting the company as quickly as possible. When it's not working. So exiting is both for successes and failures, and being very honest about that.

AI assessment note: “stay true to creating the, the biggest exits possible or getting to a decision”

Q I'm happy to provide you with ideas. Um, but like, how do you think about when to sell?

A Back to the discipline, our LPs are, we have no family offices and sovereign wealth funds. So, they're all institutions, and they're mostly non-profits, or Their customers are nonprofits. So we're really trying to make sure that our fiduciary responsibility is creating the most amount of returns as possible because their professionals are giving it away. And so we're not going to sacrifice the quality of the company based on anything, but trying to create the most amount of revenue as possible, or sorry, Most amount of, of carry as possible. When it comes to exiting, it, it really clarifies things, right? Like we're just trying to make sure that we don't believe our own BS. We don't get emotional about our own entrepreneurs and that we stay true to creating the, the biggest exits possible or getting to a decision of exiting the company as quickly as possible. When it's not working. So exiting is both for successes and failures, and being very honest about that.

AI assessment note: “stay true to creating the, the biggest exits possible or getting to a decision”

Q Do you think we do or we just don't analyze our successes in the same way?

A I would suspect that we're pretty good at analyzing, at least as a firm, as a partnership, our successes. Probably have a tougher time than we should at celebrating our successes. I think we, we all, you know, anyone who's Competitive and driven, has a difficult time at celebrating successes. It's one of the aspects that I really focus on my entrepreneurs to do, because they're so, they're, they have such a high bar and such high ambition that they forget to really celebrate the success in the journey, and it's a tough journey, so you should really take advantage of those successes. I, I really do believe that we can get better and better at this, at this Craft. And the way that we get better and better is at analyzing our mistakes and as an institution, understanding those mistakes and making sure that we don't do the same thing the next time. As uncomfortable as it may seem, we make sure that we don't fall into the same pattern the next time.

AI assessment note: “I would suspect that we're pretty good at analyzing, at least as a firm”

Q I think what I worry about with founders is sometimes they look at these incredible leaders today and they go, well, I'm not that. And it's like they look at them at the end point or kind of 10 years in and go, well, I'm not that. Were there any founders that were maybe not obviously incredible? You mentioned Daniel being obviously incredible, but have turned into obviously incredible founders.

A By the way, what I would say about Evan is he spiked in certain areas. I mean, he was not Great in other areas, and I'm still not sure that he's great in the other areas. So I think it's more about having a really clear spike in a particular part of your personality or vision rather than the full product. And part of the reason why at Index we love working in the US and in Europe is that, you know, those spikes Uh, manifest themselves in very different ways. In the US, folks are super confident, and so, you know, they will not only spike in certain areas, but they're actually not that good in certain areas, but they'll still think that they spike in those areas, and so the level of polish and sophistication that you have to sift through is really significant. In Europe, of course, it's the antithesis of that, right? Like, they're not even aware at How good they are in particular areas, let alone the fact that they're much better than they think they are in other areas. So it's really sifting through and being able to actually, um, recognize that spike in Europe and, and celebrate that spike and get them to continue to focus on it.

AI assessment note: “By the way, what I would say about Evan is he spiked in certain areas.”

Q I think what I worry about with founders is sometimes they look at these incredible leaders today and they go, well, I'm not that. And it's like they look at them at the end point or kind of 10 years in and go, well, I'm not that. Were there any founders that were maybe not obviously incredible? You mentioned Daniel being obviously incredible, but have turned into obviously incredible founders.

A By the way, what I would say about Evan is he spiked in certain areas. I mean, he was not Great in other areas, and I'm still not sure that he's great in the other areas. So I think it's more about having a really clear spike in a particular part of your personality or vision rather than the full product. And part of the reason why at Index we love working in the US and in Europe is that, you know, those spikes Uh, manifest themselves in very different ways. In the US, folks are super confident, and so, you know, they will not only spike in certain areas, but they're actually not that good in certain areas, but they'll still think that they spike in those areas, and so the level of polish and sophistication that you have to sift through is really significant. In Europe, of course, it's the antithesis of that, right? Like, they're not even aware at How good they are in particular areas, let alone the fact that they're much better than they think they are in other areas. So it's really sifting through and being able to actually, um, recognize that spike in Europe and, and celebrate that spike and get them to continue to focus on it.

AI assessment note: “So I think it's more about having a really clear spike in a particular part”

Q That was off record. But what did she mean by that?

A If I think of our industry, you know, we're really privileged, right? I mean, you, you talked about the fact that Regardless of whether you're getting paid to do these interviews or not, you would still be doing it because it's a key part of what drives you. And I, I feel the same privilege just working with entrepreneurs and, and building companies. And so, but my sense is that ironically, the technology space, it's been so lucrative. It's been such an incredible industry. The most companies create brands as a byproduct of a great product or service. I, I really couldn't tell you what Google's marketing strategy has been from the get-go. Other than a cool white screen with like a cool couple of colors with their, with their logo and maybe a drawing, I really have no idea how they've impacted me from a marketing standpoint. And most companies that have been successful, be they enterprise or consumer in the tech space, The marketing has been a byproduct of a great product or service. Really, the exception to the rule would be Apple, and probably Airbnb, and I'm, and I scratch my head to try and think of others. So, given how deliberate Index is, we obviously are going to spend a lot of time thinking of branding, and try and bring that to our, to our entrepreneurs. Force them to think about branding proactively, and The concept of what you stand for and how you tell that story. A…

AI assessment note: “If I think of our industry, you know, we're really privileged, right?”

Q That was off record. But what did she mean by that?

A If I think of our industry, you know, we're really privileged, right? I mean, you, you talked about the fact that Regardless of whether you're getting paid to do these interviews or not, you would still be doing it because it's a key part of what drives you. And I, I feel the same privilege just working with entrepreneurs and, and building companies. And so, but my sense is that ironically, the technology space, it's been so lucrative. It's been such an incredible industry. The most companies create brands as a byproduct of a great product or service. I, I really couldn't tell you what Google's marketing strategy has been from the get-go. Other than a cool white screen with like a cool couple of colors with their, with their logo and maybe a drawing, I really have no idea how they've impacted me from a marketing standpoint. And most companies that have been successful, be they enterprise or consumer in the tech space, The marketing has been a byproduct of a great product or service. Really, the exception to the rule would be Apple, and probably Airbnb, and I'm, and I scratch my head to try and think of others. So, given how deliberate Index is, we obviously are going to spend a lot of time thinking of branding, and try and bring that to our, to our entrepreneurs. Force them to think about branding proactively, and The concept of what you stand for and how you tell that story. A…

AI assessment note: “If I think of our industry, you know, we're really privileged, right?”

Q What outside bet do you have for the next multi-hundred billion dollar company? Like which company that is not a multi-hundred billion dollar company today do you think will be in five years?

A You know, these are, these, the way that my mind operates, I try and sort of cancel out the noise and focus on the things that are really critical. So I don't really think about which companies are going to be worth hundreds of billions. I'm trying to think of how do I make so many index backed companies worth tens of billions and possibly hundreds of billions. So I'm not really thinking about that, but Clearly, I mean, I invested in NVIDIA. I should have doubled down a lot more when I did, um, a couple of years ago. That, that was a big mistake. Um, so, back to my equity analyst days, I'd probably think that, um, there are a number of companies that are reinventing themselves today. That have not been public for such a long time, um, who are probably going to be worth hundreds of billions.

AI assessment note: “I don't really think about which companies are going to be worth hundreds of billions.”