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Aug 18, 2017 · 26m · 20vc

20VC: What Larry Paige, Mary Meeker and Ben Horowitz All Have In Common, Why You Have To Build A Movement Not A Brand & Why This Really Is A Great Time To Be An Entrepreneur with Joey Zwillinger, Co-Founder @ Allbirds

Joey Zwillinger · 18m spoken Harry Stebbings · 6m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The 20 Minute VC, host Harry Stebbings interviews Joey Zwillinger, co-founder of Allbirds, about transitioning from biotech to consumer footwear, executing a direct-to-consumer strategy, and building a sustainable movement. Zwillinger outlines why Allbirds bypasses Amazon, prioritizes product simplicity, and aims to lead global material innovation.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Harry holds 25.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Harry as informed peer 2.2 Guest teaching 4.0 Guest disagreement 1.8 Harry pushing back 1.2
05100:0010:0020:002:16–6:23 · Harry as informed peer 1/10 Joey Zwillinger's Path from Biotech to Footwear Harry sets up the interview with a broad question about Joey's transition from biotech engineering to shoes. Joey delivers a detailed monologue explaining his background in VC, Solazine, and why B2B sustainability led him to build a consumer brand.6:28–11:32 · Harry as informed peer 2/10 The State of Retail and E-Commerce Evolution Harry prompts a macro discussion on retail headlines. Joey educates listeners with industry statistics, highlighting that only 17 percent of the $8B US shoe market is online and explaining how traditional multi-product retailers face squeeze from Amazon.11:34–18:03 · Harry as informed peer 4/10 Protecting Brand Identity by Avoiding Amazon Harry presses Joey on whether Amazon is non-negotiable and challenges Allbirds' perfectionist launch strategy using Reid Hoffman's MVP quote. Joey firmly rejects Amazon and reframes Hoffman's philosophy by distinguishing physical products from software.18:03–21:57 · Harry as informed peer 2/10 Quickfire Round: Company Culture, Reading, and Podcasts Harry conducts a quickfire round covering books, corporate culture frameworks, and podcast habits. Joey shares insights on using the Mars Project and Zingerman's visioning processes to define company culture.21:59–24:38 · Harry as informed peer 2/10 Venture Capital Dynamics and the Future of Allbirds Harry asks Joey what he wants to see changed in VC and what lies ahead for Allbirds. Joey critiques VC focus on metrics over founder relationships and outlines Allbirds' trajectory as a material innovation business.2:16–6:23 · Guest teaching 3/10 Joey Zwillinger's Path from Biotech to Footwear Harry sets up the interview with a broad question about Joey's transition from biotech engineering to shoes. Joey delivers a detailed monologue explaining his background in VC, Solazine, and why B2B sustainability led him to build a consumer brand.6:28–11:32 · Guest teaching 5/10 The State of Retail and E-Commerce Evolution Harry prompts a macro discussion on retail headlines. Joey educates listeners with industry statistics, highlighting that only 17 percent of the $8B US shoe market is online and explaining how traditional multi-product retailers face squeeze from Amazon.11:34–18:03 · Guest teaching 5/10 Protecting Brand Identity by Avoiding Amazon Harry presses Joey on whether Amazon is non-negotiable and challenges Allbirds' perfectionist launch strategy using Reid Hoffman's MVP quote. Joey firmly rejects Amazon and reframes Hoffman's philosophy by distinguishing physical products from software.18:03–21:57 · Guest teaching 3/10 Quickfire Round: Company Culture, Reading, and Podcasts Harry conducts a quickfire round covering books, corporate culture frameworks, and podcast habits. Joey shares insights on using the Mars Project and Zingerman's visioning processes to define company culture.21:59–24:38 · Guest teaching 4/10 Venture Capital Dynamics and the Future of Allbirds Harry asks Joey what he wants to see changed in VC and what lies ahead for Allbirds. Joey critiques VC focus on metrics over founder relationships and outlines Allbirds' trajectory as a material innovation business.2:16–6:23 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Joey Zwillinger's Path from Biotech to Footwear Harry sets up the interview with a broad question about Joey's transition from biotech engineering to shoes. Joey delivers a detailed monologue explaining his background in VC, Solazine, and why B2B sustainability led him to build a consumer brand.6:28–11:32 · Guest disagreement 2/10 The State of Retail and E-Commerce Evolution Harry prompts a macro discussion on retail headlines. Joey educates listeners with industry statistics, highlighting that only 17 percent of the $8B US shoe market is online and explaining how traditional multi-product retailers face squeeze from Amazon.11:34–18:03 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Protecting Brand Identity by Avoiding Amazon Harry presses Joey on whether Amazon is non-negotiable and challenges Allbirds' perfectionist launch strategy using Reid Hoffman's MVP quote. Joey firmly rejects Amazon and reframes Hoffman's philosophy by distinguishing physical products from software.18:03–21:57 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Quickfire Round: Company Culture, Reading, and Podcasts Harry conducts a quickfire round covering books, corporate culture frameworks, and podcast habits. Joey shares insights on using the Mars Project and Zingerman's visioning processes to define company culture.21:59–24:38 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Venture Capital Dynamics and the Future of Allbirds Harry asks Joey what he wants to see changed in VC and what lies ahead for Allbirds. Joey critiques VC focus on metrics over founder relationships and outlines Allbirds' trajectory as a material innovation business.2:16–6:23 · Harry pushing back 0/10 Joey Zwillinger's Path from Biotech to Footwear Harry sets up the interview with a broad question about Joey's transition from biotech engineering to shoes. Joey delivers a detailed monologue explaining his background in VC, Solazine, and why B2B sustainability led him to build a consumer brand.6:28–11:32 · Harry pushing back 1/10 The State of Retail and E-Commerce Evolution Harry prompts a macro discussion on retail headlines. Joey educates listeners with industry statistics, highlighting that only 17 percent of the $8B US shoe market is online and explaining how traditional multi-product retailers face squeeze from Amazon.11:34–18:03 · Harry pushing back 4/10 Protecting Brand Identity by Avoiding Amazon Harry presses Joey on whether Amazon is non-negotiable and challenges Allbirds' perfectionist launch strategy using Reid Hoffman's MVP quote. Joey firmly rejects Amazon and reframes Hoffman's philosophy by distinguishing physical products from software.18:03–21:57 · Harry pushing back 1/10 Quickfire Round: Company Culture, Reading, and Podcasts Harry conducts a quickfire round covering books, corporate culture frameworks, and podcast habits. Joey shares insights on using the Mars Project and Zingerman's visioning processes to define company culture.21:59–24:38 · Harry pushing back 0/10 Venture Capital Dynamics and the Future of Allbirds Harry asks Joey what he wants to see changed in VC and what lies ahead for Allbirds. Joey critiques VC focus on metrics over founder relationships and outlines Allbirds' trajectory as a material innovation business.

speaking balance: gold is Harry, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Harry 87.2% · guest 12.8%0:00 · Harry 87.2% · guest 12.8%3:00 · Harry 0% · guest 100%3:00 · Harry 0% · guest 100%6:00 · Harry 13.2% · guest 86.8%6:00 · Harry 13.2% · guest 86.8%9:00 · Harry 10.8% · guest 89.2%9:00 · Harry 10.8% · guest 89.2%12:00 · Harry 22.6% · guest 77.4%12:00 · Harry 22.6% · guest 77.4%15:00 · Harry 5.6% · guest 94.4%15:00 · Harry 5.6% · guest 94.4%18:00 · Harry 14.3% · guest 85.7%18:00 · Harry 14.3% · guest 85.7%21:00 · Harry 4.2% · guest 95.8%21:00 · Harry 4.2% · guest 95.8%24:00 · Harry 83.1% · guest 16.9%24:00 · Harry 83.1% · guest 16.9%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 11:47 Rejection of Amazon as a distribution channel

Joey emphatically shuts down Harry's question on whether Amazon is non-negotiable, describing Amazon as a high-end tech-enabled flea market that commoditizes brands.

 Hardest push from Harry ▶ 16:35 Challenging product perfectionism with Reid Hoffman quote

Harry pushes back against Joey's meticulous product development strategy by quoting Reid Hoffman's famous principle about being embarrassed by your first release.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:42 Distinguishing physical goods from software MVPs

Joey systematically educates Harry on why software minimum viable product tactics cannot be directly applied to physical consumer brands where customer experience is paramount.

 Harry holds his own ▶ 16:35 Testing guest philosophy with startup canon

Harry demonstrates startup industry knowledge by invoking Reid Hoffman's framework to test Joey's operational philosophy.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicHarry as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementHarry pushing backWhy
Joey Zwillinger's Path from Biotech to Footwear 1310 Harry sets up the interview with a broad question about Joey's transition from biotech engineering to shoes. Joey delivers a detailed monologue explaining his background in VC, Solazine, and why B2B sustainability led him to build a consumer brand.
The State of Retail and E-Commerce Evolution 2521 Harry prompts a macro discussion on retail headlines. Joey educates listeners with industry statistics, highlighting that only 17 percent of the $8B US shoe market is online and explaining how traditional multi-product retailers face squeeze from Amazon.
Protecting Brand Identity by Avoiding Amazon 4534 Harry presses Joey on whether Amazon is non-negotiable and challenges Allbirds' perfectionist launch strategy using Reid Hoffman's MVP quote. Joey firmly rejects Amazon and reframes Hoffman's philosophy by distinguishing physical products from software.
Quickfire Round: Company Culture, Reading, and Podcasts 2311 Harry conducts a quickfire round covering books, corporate culture frameworks, and podcast habits. Joey shares insights on using the Mars Project and Zingerman's visioning processes to define company culture.
Venture Capital Dynamics and the Future of Allbirds 2420 Harry asks Joey what he wants to see changed in VC and what lies ahead for Allbirds. Joey critiques VC focus on metrics over founder relationships and outlines Allbirds' trajectory as a material innovation business.

Statements from this episode (10)

Insight
Zwillinger: Big Brands Cannot Effectively Market Sustainable Material Innovations B2B
“When you're trying to sell from a business to business perspective, even if it's a great product, it's a good price. And it has this overwhelmingly positive message around sustainability. The big brands just don't understand how to take that and market it effe…”
Joey Zwillinger Aug 18, 2017 ▶ 4:36
Insight
Zwillinger: Low Oil Prices Force Renewable Material Companies Direct-To-Consumer
“Particularly in this environment where petroleum is really cheap right now, it puts a lot of pressure on a lot of different brands that rely on renewable materials and something that's more expensive. So really, you have to go downstream to connect with the co…”
Joey Zwillinger Aug 18, 2017 ▶ 5:22
Assertion Partly supported
Only 17% Of US Shoe Purchases Occurred Online In 2017
“If in the shoot market in the U S as I said, eight billion dollars, only 17% of that is purchased online.”
Joey Zwillinger Aug 18, 2017 ▶ 7:43
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Zwillinger: Almost 100% of new shoe brand discovery happens in physical stores
“For the 83% and for any of the discovery, almost a hundred percent of the discovery of new brands, you really want to go try things on people.”
Joey Zwillinger Aug 18, 2017 ▶ 7:59
Opinion
Zwillinger: Nike selling on Amazon is a canary in the coal mine for footwear brands
“I think Nike just announced that they're going to start to sell on Amazon as well, which I think is quite a bellwether for the industry and a bit of a, if you want to use the other analogy, a canary in the coal mine for what is to come.”
Joey Zwillinger Aug 18, 2017 ▶ 9:11
Assertion Supported
Allbirds Co-Founder: Amazon Profits Off Knockoffs Targeting Allbirds Search Terms
“If you look at how Amazon does, even when you're not selling on their channel, enough people have typed in all birds on amazon.com such that there is a lot of knockoffs and other, perhaps you would call it similar looking products. That are now sold through Am…”
Joey Zwillinger Aug 18, 2017 ▶ 13:01
Opinion
Zwillinger: E-commerce discount pop-ups cheapen brand and customer experience
“You say, do you want a pop up screen on your internet site that says get 10% off for, if you enter your email, you know what that message says to you. It says you're about to get spammed by my company. In exchange for 10% off, it cheapens the experience, so we…”
Joey Zwillinger Aug 18, 2017 ▶ 15:24
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Allbirds made 30 product modifications during its first 16 months
“We made probably 30 changes in the 16 months to that first release product.”
Joey Zwillinger Aug 18, 2017 ▶ 16:49
Insight
Zwillinger: Physical consumer brands cannot rely on minimum viable product strategy
“I just think it's a little less extreme than with a web product and the way that, that Reed might say, put your minimum viable product out there, get feedback and build it with a consumer product and a brand. Particularly one, you know, if you look at the grow…”
Joey Zwillinger Aug 18, 2017 ▶ 17:15
Opinion
Zwillinger: Allbirds is a material innovator, not a fashion company
“So we view ourselves much more like an innovator than we do a shoe company or a fashion company, or we don't think we're ourselves really as a fashion company at all.”
Joey Zwillinger Aug 18, 2017 ▶ 24:08
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