Nov 20, 2025 · 1h 47m · wtf
A.R. Rahman: The Genius Who Took Indian Music Global | Nikhil Kamath | People by WTF | Ep 15 · Nikhil Kamath
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In this in-depth conversation on People by WTF, entrepreneur Nikhil Kamath hosts legendary composer A. R. Rahman for an expansive exploration of his iconic musical career, spiritual foundations, technological innovations, and vision for India's creative future. Rahman reflects on his journey from early childhood hardships to global Oscar-winning acclaim, detailing his philosophy on Sufism, AI, music education, and elevating Indian art internationally.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nikhil holds 22.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Nikhil as informed peer 2.7 Guest teaching 2.8 Guest disagreement 1.3 Nikhil pushing back 1.2
speaking balance: gold is Nikhil, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 50:16 AI tool regulation compared to gun control
Rahman aggressively rejects the tech-optimist stance on AI adoption, arguing that giving destructive AI tools without rules is like handing out guns that impoverish families.
Hardest push from Nikhil ▶ 50:43 Pushback on macroeconomic AI productivityNikhil directly challenges Rahman's protectionist view, arguing that while AI causes short-term displacement, overall societal productivity rises dramatically in the long run.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 26:55 Deconstructing classical music deliveryRahman re-educates Nikhil on why classical traditions struggle, explaining that real music transmission requires spiritual sincerity and innovative presentation rather than transactional teaching.
Nikhil holds their own ▶ 51:55 Regulatory capture in artificial intelligenceNikhil demonstrates sharp domain knowledge by explaining how heavy regulation in AI primarily serves incumbents by gatekeeping young startup founders out of the market.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Nikhil as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Nikhil pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Studio Greetings and South Indian Roots | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Nikhil opens with warm, casual small talk about South Indian heritage and regional film industries. Rahman responds cordially, sharing his early connections to the Kannada industry. | |
| Childhood Trauma and Early Musical Apprenticeship | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Rahman reflects deeply on his childhood trauma, the loss of his father at age nine, and his mother's resilience. Nikhil listens with quiet empathy and asks gentle biographical questions. | |
| From Session Player to Home Studio Pioneer | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Rahman describes his transition from a session keyboardist to building his home studio in 1989 to gain creative autonomy. Nikhil asks clarifying questions about technical terminology like scratch tracks. | |
| Roja's Breakthrough and Resisting Industry Burnout | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Rahman discusses the overnight phenomenon of Roja and his conscious decision to restrict his film output to avoid burnout. Nikhil probes whether his reluctance stemmed from fear of disappointment. | |
| Wealth Philosophy, Simplicity, and Representing India | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Nikhil posits a theory about spending culture differences between North and South India. Rahman counters the simplistic regional framing, explaining that representing India abroad with dignity and luxury is essential. | |
| Sonic Revolution: Globalizing the Indian Sound | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Rahman explains how Roja's sound was an intentional sonic revolution to meet international production standards of western acts. Nikhil inquires about the specific incumbent trends that Rahman overturned. | |
| Elevating Classical Traditions and Urban Aesthetics | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | Rahman explains that classical music must be delivered with modern mastery rather than transactional pedagogy. When Nikhil tries to contrast Western and Indian architectural cohesion, Rahman politely dismisses the binary. | |
| Artificial Intelligence, Creativity, and Vocal Mastery | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Rahman and Nikhil discuss how AI challenges musicians to become contrarian, leading into Rahman sharing his personal vocal training regimens. Nikhil asks practical questions about improving his own musical practice. | |
| Talent, Mentorship, and a Healthy Mindset | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | Nikhil shares a hypothesis that passion stems entirely from early relative competence. Rahman gently rejects this premise, noting he felt vastly inferior to young prodigies when starting out. | |
| Global Acclaim, Academy Awards, and Lost Privacy | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Rahman recounts the founding of his music conservatory and the surreal nature of the Academy Awards campaign. He candidly shares the severe loss of daily privacy that accompanied global stardom. | |
| Friendships, Silicon Valley Encounters, and Protecting Human Art | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | Rahman strongly advocates for strict AI guardrails to prevent devastating livelihood loss, comparing unregulated AI to firearms. Nikhil pushes back with macroeconomic arguments on long-term productivity and regulatory capture. | |
| Collaborative Direction and Virtual Reality Storytelling | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Rahman explains his collaborative mindset with film directors and his pioneer venture into virtual reality cinema with Le Musk. Nikhil notes tech corporate pivots away from metaverse hardware. | |
| Secret Mountain: Building a Global Virtual Supergroup | 4 | 3 | 2 | 3 | Rahman outlines Secret Mountain, a global virtual meta-band designed to represent diverse cultures. Nikhil actively tests the business model, asking about AI content, revenue-sharing, and defamation liabilities. | |
| Artistic Renewal, Organic Farming, and Philanthropic Milestones | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Rahman speaks on creative fatigue, disconnecting through organic farming, and breaking caste stigmas through his music foundation. Nikhil inquires about maintaining motivation across decades. | |
| Service, Sincerity, and Spiritual Surrender | 3 | 4 | 2 | 2 | Nikhil challenges whether human altruism is merely evolutionary self-interest and status-seeking. Rahman offers a spiritual framework of divine surrender and eradication of envy. | |
| Sufi Mysticism, Humility, and the Craft of Classic Songs | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Rahman explains Sufi philosophy as 'dying before dying' and viewing oneself as a spiritual beggar. He describes trusting his artistic instincts when composing classic melodies even before public validation. | |
| Studio Demands, Cosmic Humility, and Upcoming Epics | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | When Nikhil describes Rahman as a musical 'God', Rahman firmly deflects the label, asserting he is merely a servant. He touches on demanding studio standards and his work on Ramayana. | |
| Revolutionizing Live Venues and Entrepreneurial Voids | 4 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Rahman urges Indian entrepreneurs to build immersive venues, symphony halls, and indigenous music technology. Nikhil interrogates the heavy capital expenditure and consumer spending constraints in India. | |
| Media Detox, Spontaneous Acoustic Jam, and Studio Invitation | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Rahman shares his 20-year news detox philosophy before Nikhil hands him a guitar for an impromptu acoustic chord jam, wrapping up with an invite to Rahman's Mumbai studio. |
Statements from this episode (41)
A. R. Rahman on working in the Kannada film music industry
“Used to work for Kannada industry a little bit.”
Rahman: Kannada film industry leaped after dormant 20-year period
“Canada industry is now rocking, right? There was a dormant, 20 years, nothing happened after the grades. Now they just leaped.”
Rahman: School's primary value is socializing across diverse backgrounds
“School is not just about education. It's about understanding humanity. It's about seeing each other and getting to know the stories and learning things from other kids.”
Rahman: Building his Panchathan home recording studio in 1989 empowered him
“No, actually, magic happened when I built my studio. It's an 89, Panchitan studio, which I have, is when I felt, like, empowered. Like, I had something which nobody had.”
Rahman: Home recording studios did not exist in 1980s India
“No, those days, studios means, like, the big halls where 90 people can play together. The concept of home studio never came.”
Rahman: Artists must withhold parts of themselves from commercial industry demands
“Be careful in not giving every part of us to the industry. We should have soul left with us so that I can do other things in art.”
Rahman: He relocated to London to escape excessive Indian film industry demands
“I went to England and sat with Henry Lloyd Webber doing Bombay Dreams. The reason is to resist And grow.”
Rahman: Composers will be discarded unless they continuously evolve artistically
“Because I'm giving away all the stuff I learned, but if I don't have anything new to offer, I'll be thrown away. So it's important to evolve artistically as a musician, composer”
A. R. Rahman could not afford petrol while composing for 'Roja'
“When I was doing Roja, I didn't have money for even putting petrol. Because I was just doing that one movie because I had concentrated so much. The days where I didn't have my petrol was, I used to drive that time. It was zero.”
A. R. Rahman advised Mahindra on their electric car sound system uncompensated
“I got my Mahindra electric car. And there I have Why Mahindra electric car? I don't know. I just love it. For the first time, I felt like it's world-class quality, and I also worked on it. I was also constantly suggesting them, do this to them. The sound syste…”
Rahman: The soundtrack for 'Roja' sparked the 1990s Indian music trend shift
“The trend happened because of Rojo. There was a denial that, oh, this won't last. And I think there was a denial constantly.”
Rahman: Language and production standards kept Indian music from global audiences
“When we are listening to Pink Floyd, McQueen, John Williams, Evangelist, Beatles, Michael Jackson, they don't listen to us. So what's the reason? Language, production, and vibe, feel, recording.”
Rahman: He limited output to ensure Tamil songs reached global standards
“Each Tamar song I do should go around the world. And it was planned. It was, I worked for it. That's why I did less work.”
A. R. Rahman reveals new band Jala and the Bharat Master Award
“I have a band called Jala, which, and we're also floating an award called the Bharat Master Award to find the next Zakir Ozan, next Ravi Shankar.”
Rahman: Indian classical music succeeds when delivered with mastery, not condescension
“And if we put our energy in mastery in how we deliver the songs to people, definitely they'll like it. It should not be the, you know, I'm giving you classical music. Listen to it. It's good for you. No, give something good and make it masterful with the whole…”
Rahman: Singer Raye intentionally constructs songs to counter AI predictive patterns
“Like, the, recently there's a song by Ray, R-A-Y-E, and it cleanly shows that she's trying to beat AI.”
Rahman: Human artists will beat AI by deliberately breaking creative conventions
“Humans have this evolutionary spirit, and we will do something else. We'll go back and do something which is completely wrong, which will be very cool.”
Rahman: Innate musical talent exists, but anyone can achieve the same mastery
“Some people understand something better than other people because it comes the way the mind works. It doesn't mean that other people can't reach there.”
Nikhil Kamath: Passion is driven by early peer superiority, not innate calling
“I feel like all people are born the same and we all attempt different things. If I was five years old and I played cricket and I played cricket better than the 20 classmates of mine, I would organically become passionate at cricket, because I'm doing it better…”
A. R. Rahman: The Academy Awards are more fascinating from the outside
“I think when you see from outside, it's much more fascinating. Than being inside.”
Rahman: Public figures are only recognized when surrounded by security entourages
“Because when you don't go with security, people don't take you seriously. Only when like a group of six people come over, somebody is important, oh, that should be him.”
Rahman: Hollywood stars bluntly refuse fans, whereas Indian actors are more accommodating
“Whenever I've worked with rock stars abroad, they just straight on the face of, I don't do that, sorry. Whether it's Hollywood actor or, I've been with a couple of them, and they're straight on the face. That's why people don't come, because most of them are l…”
Rahman: Governments must impose strict operating rules on AI to prevent joblessness
“Now you're not shooting people, but you can pull the carpet off, make them jobless. It's like making families going into poverty. So it is the rules. Humans have to set the rules. You have traffic rules. You have immigration rules.”
Rahman: Live concerts and symphonies will become more valuable alongside AI
“Live concerts, live dance, live musical theater, symphonies will be respected even more. Right. The value of that is going to go.”
Rahman: Applying traditional cinematic techniques to virtual reality induces viewer nausea
“I think what happened was for making VR movies, you need to unlearn many things for content. So film people come and use their techniques to do virtual reality. It makes people throw up.”
Rahman: Virtual reality will coexist as a personal medium alongside communal cinema
“It shouldn't be a replacement for cinema, but an alternate coexisting, right? So what you don't get in cinema, you'll get on this one. In cinema, you get the kind of community feel, like, you all whistle on the same thing. You all, all, all stack. I look at th…”
Rahman: Ed Sheeran promised to write songs for global band Secret Mountain
“And the lyricists, they're, I'm composing all this stuff, but then we have partners like, people like Ed Sheeran, they promised to write songs for this. He was hearing a couple of songs. I love this. I want to do something.”
Rahman: Virtual band project Secret Mountain uses live musicians, not AI generation
“Live musicians are going to play with it. So it's not AI-created composition or anything. It's all live.”
Rahman: Artists must intentionally impose constraints to disrupt formulas and innovate
“That's why they say, you know, like if you paint with the right hand constantly and you get comfortable with it, you know, tie your right hand and paint with the left hand. But then you will find a different way, because your mind wants to express, and the lim…”
Rahman: Corporation school students from his foundation performed in Canada
“And then recently we went to Canada for the Glen Gold Foundation. They invited us, and they all played. It's such a great moment to see kids from corporation schools taking your flight, going to Canada, And playing for, you know, billionaires sitting there.”
A. R. Rahman: Releasing a subpar song mix causes months of self-torture
“I won't be able to sleep if I let a mix pass by or a song which could be better, and I didn't work enough for that, that'll be the biggest punishment or self-torture for me. For at least three to four months, I should have done it, but I should have done it. S…”
Nikhil Kamath: Projecting an image of selflessness adds value in capitalist societies
“In the capitalistic society, the projection of being selfless is a value add.”
Rahman: Artistic self-validation is essential to withstand initial commercial failure
“When they say something is good, everybody says, oh, that's a hit song. Listen to it. If it's not good enough for me, then throw it out. It has to do something to my heart. It has to do something to my soul. And, That's why I don't care when some song, some of…”
Rahman: He invested three years developing global creative project Secret Mountain
“I'm looking forward to the success of Secret Mountain. If it deserves, and because we are putting all our hard work, and we want to create something extraordinary from India to the world, and because we put three years of a life in it, you want to make this th…”
Rahman: Film composition avoids monotony through unique multidisciplinary collaborations
“If a Western artist has to do an album, they have to think about it. I'm getting help from the script, from the director, from the screenwriter, from the lyricist. My part is just music, right? So each album is different because the different combination of di…”
A. R. Rahman reveals composition slate: Ramayana, English films, and Arabic horror
“There's Ramayana, there's so many secret mountain and Couple of English ones going on, and an Arabic movie. Horror movie. Called Bab.”
Rahman: Multisensory, immersive venues like the Las Vegas Sphere are the future
“I think immersive thing is the future, like the spear, what, what's doing Vegas. Everything looks so unbelievably spiritual and it's something very human about watching with that quality. I've never been there, but I've seen the videos. It is incredible. Yeah.…”
A. R. Rahman: India does not have a single proper symphony hall
“And we don't even have a proper symphony hall in any of India. Now, nowhere.”
Rahman: The NMACC is probably the only world-class performing venue in India
“I went for the Phantom premiere at NMACC. Incredible. And that's probably the only place which is world-class in India.”