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Mar 20, 2021 · 25m · we-live-to-build

France's Two-Tier System: The 1% Pay No Taxes Legally

Gabriel Cien · 16m spoken Sean Weisbrot · 6m spoken
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In this episode of "We Live to Build," host Sean Weisbrot interviews getemail.io founder Gabriel Cien to examine the practical realities of launching and scaling a startup in France, covering legal incorporation, labor reforms, R&D tax subsidies, and regional quality of life.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Sean holds 30.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Sean as informed peer 2.4 Guest teaching 5.8 Guest disagreement 2.0 Sean pushing back 1.4
05100:0010:0020:002:04–7:56 · Sean as informed peer 3/10 Welcoming Gabriel Cien and Background of getemail.io Sean asks whether entrepreneurs can set up in France remotely using nominee directors like in Singapore or Estonia. Gabriel bluntly shuts down the idea, warning it is a nightmare and emphasizing that France only rewards founders physically living and working in the country.7:56–12:46 · Sean as informed peer 1/10 Engineering Talent Advantages and Government R&D Subsidies Gabriel gives an extensive breakdown of why France is ideal for early-stage engineering, citing affordable 60k euro talent and a 50 percent government R&D cash rebate. Sean takes a purely listening posture as Gabriel illustrates with examples like Criteo.12:47–15:39 · Sean as informed peer 3/10 French Labor Laws and Employee Dismissal Reforms Sean brings up French labor rigidity, expressing shock that dismissing employees carries penalties. Gabriel educates him on Emmanuel Macron's labor reforms that capped wrongful dismissal damages, turning legal exposure into a predictable business risk.15:39–22:00 · Sean as informed peer 4/10 Corporate Taxation, Payroll Levies, and Two-Tier Nuances Gabriel reveals the reality of France's 100 percent payroll tax overhead alongside legal optimization loopholes available to the top 1 percent. Sean pushes back by comparing the system to Singapore's simpler corporate tax rates and calls France's dynamic filing system insane.22:00–24:04 · Sean as informed peer 1/10 Climate Variations and Regional Cost of Living Sean invites Gabriel to discuss lifestyle factors, prompting a light overview of sunshine in the South of France versus Paris and regional differences in monthly rental and dining expenses.2:04–7:56 · Guest teaching 6/10 Welcoming Gabriel Cien and Background of getemail.io Sean asks whether entrepreneurs can set up in France remotely using nominee directors like in Singapore or Estonia. Gabriel bluntly shuts down the idea, warning it is a nightmare and emphasizing that France only rewards founders physically living and working in the country.7:56–12:46 · Guest teaching 7/10 Engineering Talent Advantages and Government R&D Subsidies Gabriel gives an extensive breakdown of why France is ideal for early-stage engineering, citing affordable 60k euro talent and a 50 percent government R&D cash rebate. Sean takes a purely listening posture as Gabriel illustrates with examples like Criteo.12:47–15:39 · Guest teaching 6/10 French Labor Laws and Employee Dismissal Reforms Sean brings up French labor rigidity, expressing shock that dismissing employees carries penalties. Gabriel educates him on Emmanuel Macron's labor reforms that capped wrongful dismissal damages, turning legal exposure into a predictable business risk.15:39–22:00 · Guest teaching 7/10 Corporate Taxation, Payroll Levies, and Two-Tier Nuances Gabriel reveals the reality of France's 100 percent payroll tax overhead alongside legal optimization loopholes available to the top 1 percent. Sean pushes back by comparing the system to Singapore's simpler corporate tax rates and calls France's dynamic filing system insane.22:00–24:04 · Guest teaching 3/10 Climate Variations and Regional Cost of Living Sean invites Gabriel to discuss lifestyle factors, prompting a light overview of sunshine in the South of France versus Paris and regional differences in monthly rental and dining expenses.2:04–7:56 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Welcoming Gabriel Cien and Background of getemail.io Sean asks whether entrepreneurs can set up in France remotely using nominee directors like in Singapore or Estonia. Gabriel bluntly shuts down the idea, warning it is a nightmare and emphasizing that France only rewards founders physically living and working in the country.7:56–12:46 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Engineering Talent Advantages and Government R&D Subsidies Gabriel gives an extensive breakdown of why France is ideal for early-stage engineering, citing affordable 60k euro talent and a 50 percent government R&D cash rebate. Sean takes a purely listening posture as Gabriel illustrates with examples like Criteo.12:47–15:39 · Guest disagreement 2/10 French Labor Laws and Employee Dismissal Reforms Sean brings up French labor rigidity, expressing shock that dismissing employees carries penalties. Gabriel educates him on Emmanuel Macron's labor reforms that capped wrongful dismissal damages, turning legal exposure into a predictable business risk.15:39–22:00 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Corporate Taxation, Payroll Levies, and Two-Tier Nuances Gabriel reveals the reality of France's 100 percent payroll tax overhead alongside legal optimization loopholes available to the top 1 percent. Sean pushes back by comparing the system to Singapore's simpler corporate tax rates and calls France's dynamic filing system insane.22:00–24:04 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Climate Variations and Regional Cost of Living Sean invites Gabriel to discuss lifestyle factors, prompting a light overview of sunshine in the South of France versus Paris and regional differences in monthly rental and dining expenses.2:04–7:56 · Sean pushing back 2/10 Welcoming Gabriel Cien and Background of getemail.io Sean asks whether entrepreneurs can set up in France remotely using nominee directors like in Singapore or Estonia. Gabriel bluntly shuts down the idea, warning it is a nightmare and emphasizing that France only rewards founders physically living and working in the country.7:56–12:46 · Sean pushing back 0/10 Engineering Talent Advantages and Government R&D Subsidies Gabriel gives an extensive breakdown of why France is ideal for early-stage engineering, citing affordable 60k euro talent and a 50 percent government R&D cash rebate. Sean takes a purely listening posture as Gabriel illustrates with examples like Criteo.12:47–15:39 · Sean pushing back 2/10 French Labor Laws and Employee Dismissal Reforms Sean brings up French labor rigidity, expressing shock that dismissing employees carries penalties. Gabriel educates him on Emmanuel Macron's labor reforms that capped wrongful dismissal damages, turning legal exposure into a predictable business risk.15:39–22:00 · Sean pushing back 3/10 Corporate Taxation, Payroll Levies, and Two-Tier Nuances Gabriel reveals the reality of France's 100 percent payroll tax overhead alongside legal optimization loopholes available to the top 1 percent. Sean pushes back by comparing the system to Singapore's simpler corporate tax rates and calls France's dynamic filing system insane.22:00–24:04 · Sean pushing back 0/10 Climate Variations and Regional Cost of Living Sean invites Gabriel to discuss lifestyle factors, prompting a light overview of sunshine in the South of France versus Paris and regional differences in monthly rental and dining expenses.

speaking balance: gold is Sean, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Sean 79.1% · guest 20.9%0:00 · Sean 79.1% · guest 20.9%3:00 · Sean 45.7% · guest 54.3%3:00 · Sean 45.7% · guest 54.3%6:00 · Sean 29.5% · guest 70.5%6:00 · Sean 29.5% · guest 70.5%9:00 · Sean 0% · guest 100%9:00 · Sean 0% · guest 100%12:00 · Sean 16.9% · guest 83.1%12:00 · Sean 16.9% · guest 83.1%15:00 · Sean 7.8% · guest 92.2%15:00 · Sean 7.8% · guest 92.2%18:00 · Sean 32.1% · guest 67.9%18:00 · Sean 32.1% · guest 67.9%21:00 · Sean 24% · guest 76%21:00 · Sean 24% · guest 76%24:00 · Sean 54.2% · guest 45.8%24:00 · Sean 54.2% · guest 45.8%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 4:20 Blunt dismissal of remote incorporation

Gabriel forcefully rejects Sean's premise that someone can manage a French business remotely with nominee directors, calling DIY incorporation hell and warning of dangerous veto risks.

 Hardest push from Sean ▶ 21:10 Pushing back on French bureaucratic sanity

Sean explicitly challenges the rationality of France's dynamic tax payment schedules and complex bureaucracy, stating the country has a long way to go before becoming sensible.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 10:45 Detailing France's lucrative R&D subsidies

Gabriel educates Sean on France's generous research tax credit scheme, explaining how the government pays back 50 percent of R&D expenditure to retain elite engineers locally.

 Sean holds their own ▶ 18:05 Contrasting French payroll taxes with Singapore

Sean demonstrates his own operational expertise by contrasting France's heavy payroll tax burden with Singapore's corporate structure, 15-17 percent corporate rate, and foreign hiring strategies.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicSean as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementSean pushing backWhy
Welcoming Gabriel Cien and Background of getemail.io 3642 Sean asks whether entrepreneurs can set up in France remotely using nominee directors like in Singapore or Estonia. Gabriel bluntly shuts down the idea, warning it is a nightmare and emphasizing that France only rewards founders physically living and working in the country.
Engineering Talent Advantages and Government R&D Subsidies 1710 Gabriel gives an extensive breakdown of why France is ideal for early-stage engineering, citing affordable 60k euro talent and a 50 percent government R&D cash rebate. Sean takes a purely listening posture as Gabriel illustrates with examples like Criteo.
French Labor Laws and Employee Dismissal Reforms 3622 Sean brings up French labor rigidity, expressing shock that dismissing employees carries penalties. Gabriel educates him on Emmanuel Macron's labor reforms that capped wrongful dismissal damages, turning legal exposure into a predictable business risk.
Corporate Taxation, Payroll Levies, and Two-Tier Nuances 4723 Gabriel reveals the reality of France's 100 percent payroll tax overhead alongside legal optimization loopholes available to the top 1 percent. Sean pushes back by comparing the system to Singapore's simpler corporate tax rates and calls France's dynamic filing system insane.
Climate Variations and Regional Cost of Living 1310 Sean invites Gabriel to discuss lifestyle factors, prompting a light overview of sunshine in the South of France versus Paris and regional differences in monthly rental and dining expenses.

Statements from this episode (9)

Assertion Contradicted
Cien: Non-resident founders in France need local directors with veto rights
“If you're not located in France you would have to have a sort of a local director who would have a lot of veto rights or on how to manage your company, which comes with risks.”
Gabriel Cien Mar 20, 2021 ▶ 5:07
Assertion Supported
Cien: Macron reformed French company incorporation with one-stop shops
“He put in place some new processes to incorporate the companies in a faster way. It does not compare to Estonia, ok? But it's still way better than it was a couple of years ago, before he came into power. You know, the paperwork would be easier. The administra…”
Gabriel Cien Mar 20, 2021 ▶ 7:12
Opinion
Cien: France is the best country to start a company from scratch
“If we take everything into account, France is the best country to create a company, a startup. Maybe it's not the best country to grow the startup when you have succeeded generating some revenue and you're scaling up, but it's still going to be the best place …”
Gabriel Cien Mar 20, 2021 ▶ 8:06
Assertion Supported
Cien: Experienced French engineers can be hired for 60K per year
“To give you an idea about what I'm talking about, you can find very good engineers with five to 10 years of experience at 60 K per year.”
Gabriel Cien Mar 20, 2021 ▶ 9:10
Assertion Contradicted
Cien: France offers annual subsidies covering 50% of R&D spending
“We would take the total amount of money that has been spent on research and development, and the government would give you 50% more under the form of a yearly subsidy, which is huge.”
Gabriel Cien Mar 20, 2021 ▶ 11:11
Assertion Supported
Cien: Macron capped dismissal penalties, turning French firing into a measurable risk
“Things have dramatically changed after Emmanuel Macron came into power. So basically issued a law that specifies the maximum amount of money of penalties that the company would pay if they fire an employee. And when you have a maximum amount, Well, you can mea…”
Gabriel Cien Mar 20, 2021 ▶ 13:38
Assertion Supported
Cien: French payroll taxes equal 100% of an employee's take-home salary
“If you want to pay 5000 that lands in the pocket of that employee, you would basically have to pay another 5000 In, under the form of different taxes. Unemployment insurance, medical insurance, health insurance, and lots of different other insurance and taxes.”
Gabriel Cien Mar 20, 2021 ▶ 17:36
Disclosure
Weisbrot: Singapore entity avoids hiring citizens to bypass local taxes
“We don't hire any Singaporean citizens, even though we're a Singaporean entity. So we can avoid a lot of the extra taxation and requirements that the government places on a company that hires a local citizen.”
Sean Weisbrot Mar 20, 2021 ▶ 18:08
Assertion Supported
Cien: Paris living costs €2,000 monthly, double the rest of France
“Paris is really expensive, the most expensive in France, and there's the rest of the country. So in Paris, you would have to spend around 2000 euros per month. Here in the south of France, for example, you would pay half the price for a rental. In Paris, it's …”
Gabriel Cien Mar 20, 2021 ▶ 23:27
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