Mar 17, 2025 · 22m · tbpn
Joshua Steinman talks cybersecurity and the vulnerabilities of a digital world.
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this podcast episode, cybersecurity entrepreneur and former government official Joshua Steinman discusses foreign cyber sabotage, industrial infrastructure vulnerabilities, technology counterintelligence, and strategies for American re-industrialization.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 36.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 4.3 Guest teaching 3.7 Guest disagreement 2.8 The hosts pushing back 1.3
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 12:12 Dismissal of skepticism regarding CCP access to drone topography
Joshua uses blunt, aggressive language to dismiss those who doubt Chinese intelligence access to DJI cloud topography, stating they are 'smoking crack.'
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 18:25 Challenging standard industrial subsidy frameworks with guaranteed demand modelJohn Coogan challenges conventional supply-side subsidies by outlining Ben Thompson's framework for federal guaranteed demand purchasing.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 6:26 Explaining true OT network breach vectors versus air-gap mythsJoshua educates John by contrasting naive TV depictions of air-gapping with the reality of long-term forensic breadcrumbs across enterprise networks.
The host holds their own ▶ 18:25 John Coogan details the demand-side CHIPS Act V2 thesisJohn demonstrates sophisticated policy fluency by proposing a shift from supply subsidies to guaranteed government offtake agreements for domestic fabrication.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Joshua Steinman's Background in Defense and OT Cybersecurity | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | The hosts invite Joshua Steinman to share his career backstory and founding narrative. Joshua outlines his transition from military operational counter-terrorism to White House cybersecurity leadership and operational technology defense. | |
| Foreign Sabotage and Securing Industrial Infrastructure | 3 | 5 | 2 | 1 | Joshua dispels simplified media tropes around air-gapping industrial control networks, explaining how real-world nation-state sabotage campaigns unfold over months through subtle breadcrumb trails. | |
| The Strategic Link Between Cyber Espionage and Sabotage | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | The hosts demonstrate strong topical knowledge, detailing Intel's new CEO background and the Twitter foreign intelligence disclosures. Joshua explains how cyber espionage primarily serves to map networks for future sabotage. | |
| National Security Threats of DJI Drones and Chinese Robotics | 4 | 4 | 5 | 1 | Joshua takes a vehement, uncompromising stance demanding a full ban on DJI drones, dismissing pushback over market pricing as shortsighted given CCP intelligence access. | |
| TikTok Divestment, Cognitive Sovereignty, and High-Stakes Diplomacy | 7 | 3 | 2 | 2 | John Coogan demonstrates clear policy expertise by articulating Ben Thompson's guaranteed demand-side model versus CHIPS Act supply-side subsidies, earning immediate agreement from Joshua. | |
| California Wildfire Solutions and Active Forest Management | 4 | 4 | 4 | 1 | Joshua forcefully attacks California state regulatory inertia around controlled burns and forestry management, while John quickly identifies the documentary Hot Shot on smokejumpers. |
Statements from this episode (12)
Steinman: Digitizing industrial infrastructure has created major exploitable vulnerabilities
“You know, we've digitized the industrial world, and yet there's, it has created these huge vulnerabilities That have been exploited and some of that stuff makes its way out into the public.”
Steinman: 100 foreign sabotage teams are actively operating on US soil
“No, there's absolutely foreign, foreign sabotage teams operating on U S soil. A hundred percent. My actual number is somewhere around a hundred teams. My guess is that and the question is like, you could break that down into, you know, what types anyway.”
Steinman: A cyberattack destroyed the Iranian steel industry in one day
“So I think two, three years ago someone, I don't know who literally destroyed the Iranian steel industry in like one day.”
Steinman: Industrial cyber attacks take months and leave detectable breadcrumbs
“But these operations take days, weeks, months, sometimes years to sort of like get into a network and then find your way to the systems that you want to take over. And the whole point is like every step of the way of those types of operations leaves breadcrumb…”
Steinman: Twitter buyout documents revealed foreign intelligence operated inside the company
“I mean, you can read the papers that came out of like the Twitter buyout, you know, transition to X, and they basically are like, yeah, we had foreign intel services, foreign governments, like operating inside
You know, ex formerly known as Twitter.”
Steinman: Chinese tech companies are legally required to be dual-use
“Chinese companies are legally required to be dual use. Like, they've architected their entire economy to serve the Chinese Communist Party.”
Steinman: Chinese robotics firms are replicating DJI's US market takeover playbook
“They are absolutely taking that playbook and trying to replicate it as broadly as possible.”
Steinman: CCP intelligence officials likely access DJI's US topography data
“Like if you don't think that senior CCP Intel officials have the ability to just walk into DJI headquarters and be like, give me everything you know about the topography of the United States. Like, you're smoking crack. They probably have access to it right no…”
Steinman: ByteDance's prize is algorithm control to influence US youth
“Yeah, they absolutely want to retain control of the algorithm because that's like the prize is the ability to like inject ideas into the youth of the United States or elsewhere.”
Coogan: DeepSeek rejected venture capital for 0% Bank of China loan
“DeepSeek turned down all their venture capital interest and said, oh yeah, we're just going to take a zero percent loan from the bank of China.”
Steinman: US should guarantee demand for American chips over subsidizing supply
“Yeah, I love it. I love it. I think, you know, right now I've heard a lot of strange things about how chips act has played out. I haven't followed it as closely as if I was You know, some analysts covering the stuff for the banks, but I mean, it was one of the…”
Steinman: Forest management is solved and Europe avoids catastrophic fires through it
“Forestry management is a solved problem, right? Let these guys get out there. The Europeans laugh at us. The president talks about this all the time, but it is literally true. They don't have these types of catastrophic forest fires because they have good fore…”