Jul 21, 2022 · 1h 9m · startup-ideas
Betting Big on Web3 with Li Jin
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this podcast episode, venture capitalist Li Jin joins hosts Sahil Bloom and Greg Isenberg to discuss her journey from early online communities to founding Variant Fund, dissecting the creator economy, Web3 ownership models, and the mechanics of sustainable digital gaming.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Greg holds 12.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Greg as informed peer 4.9 Guest teaching 1.8 Guest disagreement 0.5 Greg pushing back 0.6
speaking balance: gold is Greg, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 1:04:10 Reframing external brand sponsorships to player whale sinks
Li directly reframes Sahil's proposed rule on play-to-earn viability, pointing out that sustainable in-game economies depend on intrinsic player net inflows (whales) rather than outside brand advertisers.
Hardest push from Greg ▶ 1:07:32 Greg rejects AAA studio thesis using Ubisoft case studyWhen Sahil suggests AAA studios will lead Web3 gaming, Greg immediately refuses the framing, citing Ubisoft's severe gamer backlash on Tezos to prove major studios cannot launch crypto directly.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 54:22 Drawing the clear line between CeFi collapse and DeFi smart contractsLi educates the audience and hosts on how opaque centralized lenders like BlockFi exposed customers to counterparty risk, contrasting it against on-chain DeFi protocols that remained transparent and fully operational throughout the crash.
Greg holds their own ▶ 1:07:32 Greg leverages industry precedent on gaming studio blowbackGreg demonstrates sharp domain expertise by breaking down why mainstream gaming studios face massive reputational friction entering Web3, successfully defending his and Li's position against Sahil.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Greg as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Greg pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Welcoming Li Jin and Exploring Neopets Nostalgia | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Sahil and Greg warmly welcome Li Jin and reminisce about early internet communities. Li explains the mechanics and social impact of Neopets, which Sahil connects to modern Web3 play-to-earn games. | |
| Fiction, Creativity, and the Evolution of Modern Content | 6 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Li explains her shift back to reading fiction and its impact on writing style. Greg and Sahil add their own perspectives on how fiction fuels creative product insight and how newsletter publishing has disrupted traditional nonfiction books. | |
| Li Jin's Journey: From Beijing to Andreessen Horowitz | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Li shares her biographical journey from Beijing and Pittsburgh to Harvard and landing a role at Andreessen Horowitz. The hosts listen attentively, interjecting with relatable immigrant parent anecdotes. | |
| The Infamous Sand Hill Road Pitch Story | 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Greg shares an entertaining anecdote about pitching Andreessen Horowitz on Sand Hill Road when partner Benedict Evans fell asleep. Li and Sahil laugh along, with Li playfully defending Evans regarding jet lag. | |
| Founding Atelier Ventures and Partnering on Variant Fund | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Li details leaving a16z during the onset of COVID-19 to raise Atelier Ventures and later merging with Jesse Walden at Variant Fund to focus on Web3 ownership. The hosts praise her counter-cyclical conviction. | |
| Type 4 Luck, Public Writing, and Thesis-Driven Investing | 6 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Sahil and Greg cite Li's influential essays like '100 True Fans' and frame her trajectory using Naval Ravikant's 'Type 4 Luck' framework. Both hosts display strong familiarity with creator economy theses. | |
| Mid-Roll Sponsor: Element Electrolyte Mix | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Mid-roll commercial sponsor break featuring Element electrolyte drink mix and Lemon.io developer hiring. Host monologue with no interactive dialogue. | |
| Finding Your Flow and Embracing Imperfect Early Work | 5 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Li emphasizes that intellectual passion must precede public recognition. Sahil builds on this by discussing the importance of identifying effortless flow and creating imperfect 'version 1.0' iterations. | |
| Tactical Consistency vs. Artistic Depth in Content Creation | 6 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Greg and Sahil contrast Justin Welsh's tactical consistency model against Tim Urban's deep artistic model. Li identifies with the artistic model, noting she only publishes when insight crosses a high bar. | |
| Web3 Vibe Check and the Mission of Digital Ownership | 4 | 3 | 1 | 0 | Li describes herself as an ideological aberration in crypto, explaining that the 2022 market crash cleanses speculative distractions so builders can focus on broader internet equity and digital ownership. | |
| Tourists vs. Locals and the Collapse of Centralized Crypto | 7 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Sahil compares crypto market cycles to Cape Cod tourists versus locals and delivers an informed breakdown of the 3AC contagion and BlockFi/FTX rescue acquisition. Li agrees with the tourist analogy. | |
| CeFi Failures, DeFi Resilience, and Token Lockup Integrity | 6 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Li sharply distinguishes between opaque centralized finance (CeFi) and transparent on-chain DeFi protocols like Compound and MakerDAO. Sahil asks about VCs dumping pre-sale tokens, and Li clarifies institutional multi-year lockup norms. | |
| Lessons from Neopets: Building Sustainable Play-to-Earn Economies | 6 | 5 | 2 | 1 | Sahil proposes two rules for sustainable play-to-earn economies. Li politely reframes his second rule, explaining that sustainability requires player whale sinks with net inflows rather than purely external corporate brand sponsorship. | |
| The Web3 Gaming Debate: Simple Web Mechanics vs. AAA Studios | 7 | 2 | 2 | 5 | Li and Greg argue that primitive web mechanics will crack Web3 gaming before AAA studios. Sahil dissents in favor of big studios, but Greg pushes back forcefully using Ubisoft's Tezos NFT backlash as concrete evidence. |
Statements from this episode (19)
Li Jin: Neopets served as an early dial-up metaverse
“Neopets was the metaverse, but on a dial up internet connection.”
Isenberg: Fiction makes founders more creative than Peter Thiel's Zero to One
“If you read fiction, you're just gonna be more creative, period. Like, you're not gonna come up with the idea for Neopets after reading Zero to One by Peter Thiel.”
Sahil Bloom: Most 200-page business books could be 2-5 page newsletters
“The entire like nonfiction book industry you know, business books, self-help books, like all of that stuff, the vast majority of those things are like 200 pages, but could have been said in a like two page or five page article or newsletter.”
Jin broke into Andreessen Horowitz by cold-applying on their public website
“I actually cold applied to Andreessen Horowitz on the website as a last ditch attempt to not have to go to business school.”
Bloom: Business school is an easy default for those fearing career uncertainty
“I think like business school is like the it's like the uncertainty pick where like people aren't willing to tolerate the like uncertainty of what comes next at that first pivot point in their career. And business school is like the easy the easy answer.”
Isenberg: Benedict Evans fell asleep during his 2018 Andreessen Horowitz pitch
“This person was Benedict Evans. Benedict Evans fell asleep. Oh no. During my pitch.”
Li Jin: Crypto enables users to earn project ownership alongside income
“Crypto was this new way for people to earn an income online and not only could they earn an income, they were actually earning ownership in the projects that they were participating in which I thought was so interesting and something that had never been possib…”
Bloom: Sharing work publicly creates idea magnets that attract inbound luck
“You're sharing in public, which is a great way to get lucky because you sort of cast these like idea magnets out into the world around all this stuff.”
Bloom: Highly successful people accidentally build crude early versions first
“I found that to be a common thread, by the way, among extremely successful people, they like built the, you know, version one point O of their thing accidentally prior to doing the real one.”
Bloom: High-frequency writing like Ben Thompson's is unsustainable for most creators
“It's really hard to send an insight rich newsletter once a week. And the people that do it, like Ben Thompson, I like bow down to the fact that that guy can every single day churn out an insight rich piece of Piece of writing is insane to me. Like Paki once a …”
Li Jin: Web2 platforms excluded contributing users from equity value accrual
“A lot of the value came from the equity value of these companies and that accrued to very, very small group of people, investors, founders, early employees, executives, et cetera. And notably who's missing from that is the participants on the platforms themsel…”
Bloom: Reset in private crypto valuations will improve venture returns and funding
“Prices are hopefully gonna reset to some extent in the private markets too. And you're gonna be able to invest in things at a, you know, a more reasonable price point and generate better returns for your investors, which creates a feedback loop of more money f…”
Bloom: FTX reached agreement to acquire BlockFi for up to $240M
“FTX is now, you know, under a definitive agreement to acquire block five for like, I don't really care how, you know, the CEO positioned it, you know, with the revolving line of credit, that's not really enterprise value. It's not like buying the equity, but l…”
Jin: DeFi protocols remained resilient and operational throughout the crypto crash
“All of the DeFi protocols are still working, but they've been incredibly resilient during this period of broader turmoil. And I think it's really important to note that because in those instances and in the DeFi world, users know exactly what is happening with…”
Jin: Multi-year token lockups are virtually universal for crypto VC funds
“So usually I would say in the deals that I've been a part of lockups are very, very common, if not just Universally present. And furthermore, those lockups are really long like multi-year lockups. And for venture firms, I mean, venture firms are structured as …”
Li Jin: Next cycle will produce a sustainable play-to-earn game
“I think in this next cycle, someone is going to crack that and design a game economy that is actually sustainable and functions.”
Jin: Play-to-earn economies require net-spending whales to avoid Ponzi structures
“There needs to be another contingent of players, which does exist in most games. It's the whales who are spending more money than they earn out. And that is the only way that the economy of the game can be in balance without necessarily relying on the poncinom…”
Jin: Simple games will figure out Web3 before AAA studios
“I think you can get there with pretty simple game dynamics like what Neopets had. Neopets was literally playable on a dial up modem. And so I think those are the games that are going to figure it out first in advance of the AAA games that probably will take fi…”
Bloom: Breakout Web3 games will come from major AAA studios
“Yeah, I think they're going to have to create like a You know, like a separate entity that kind of allows it to be more free ownership and it'll come from one of those big studios. Not a, I actually don't think it'll be a new studio that raises money.”