The Exchanges

Q How many products does PeopleStrong have right now? How many customers do you have? How much team size do you have?

A So we are, we are a 1200 people organization. Um, this 1200 is, is not a large number, but in HR technology and HR context, we are probably amongst the largest and fastest going HR, HR technology enterprise in India. We have about 175 customers. Uh, we have, uh, nine products, which is constantly evolving. So by March, we will have almost 14 products within HR. Uh, we, we've crossed, um, hundred million dollars order book, which will be probably largest for any company in India in HR, HR technology space. Um, in terms of, uh, signing up customers, we are signing about, um, one customer a week. Uh, I would like this number to be three customers a week. And, uh, we were so far focused around India. We are now starting, uh, Asia Pacific. Um, that will help us in growing faster and even bigger.

AI assessment note: “1200 people organization... about 175 customers. Uh, we have, uh, nine products”

Q What are the organizational habits that you believe are the success of PeopleStrong?

A So I will say success of people strong or scale up of any enterprise. We all would like to believe, um, that every startup is different, but it is yet very similar. So I will answer this question probably a little longish in two minutes, uh, be it scale up or be it habits of people strong. There are five things that we did, which we believe that worked. I'm not saying to a hundred percent, but to a large extent. One is we always focused on our why and vision or our brand promise. We've spent considerable amount of money on building our brand, getting brand consultants, doing visioning, ah, after every three years, we spent considerable amount of time and money on this brand promise and why we exist, vision, mission documents, and we got all best industry practice that helped us in telling our story to our customers, to our investors and to our employees. That's how people joined us. So that's the first step. Second step that we looked at is, is converting that vision or brand promise into goals, which are crisp, imaginable, doable. We got our annual scorecards, then moved to OKR system, which is objective and key results, um, um, you know, which is quarterly for product companies. I think that significantly helped us because people knew which direction they are going. Uh, third step that we did once we had defined our vision, why brand promise, and secondly, once we had defined…

AI assessment note: “There are five things that we did, which we believe that worked.”

Q Pankaj, for the last 13 years by building PeopleStrong, If said, as you shared, you know, you would have raised debt if possible. What are the other things you would have done differently or which you have done would have taken this journey relatively shorter time and with much efficiency?

A So I think one, I said debt, of course, that you covered. And second is, of course, also I mentioned is, ah, breaking up with people or parting ways at the right time because I, I took much longer because I was attached. It's the worst thing that an entrepreneur can do to an enterprise or to a team if you become attached to it. Um, and third, I will say become a little more daring when it comes to globalization. I took a bit more time, uh, in, in, in getting the globalization story, right? I'm not that I'm global today, but we are just on the right track is my belief. Those three decisions, uh, would have really helped me in scaling even further or making the story even shorter.

AI assessment note: “breaking up with people or parting ways at the right time”

Q What advice would you like to give any entrepreneur who is just starting up, but has an aspirational goal of a hundred million dollar company in the next five to seven years? What would you advise them for habits, discipline?

A One is work on self. I think that's what entrepreneurs neglect a lot. Though the new breed of entrepreneurs that I meet, most of them are very focused on their self. Self means your body, ah, how you take care of it. Second is your mind, how centered you are, how you take blows and successes. I, I'm actually more worried about successes than blows. I've seen people losing them on success. And third is how do you connect with your own self in a very deep fashion, right? So that's the first thing I recommend. Second thing that I recommend them, please try to understand deeply your market. When I say deep market, I'm not referring to market research. I'm saying when you are on ground and when you know what's happening, right? So, uh, many examples, I was there at Isha Coimbatore and I, I was a part of the leadership conference there as one of the resource people. I heard the story of a, uh, an entrepreneur called Mustafa ID, which is idli and dosa barter. You know, that, that thing, no one really realized through a market research that this, you send crores of idlis in Bangalore alone. Right? So how can someone tap that market? No, no report of a big five can tell you that, that you have to only understand. So that's the second point, which is, so first is self. Second is go deep to the market. Third is you've got to have a fantastic product head. I believe you, you by default are…

AI assessment note: “One is work on self. I think that's what entrepreneurs neglect a lot.”

Q What challenges you faced in the initial couple of years while building people's shop?

A I think biggest challenge was no one gave us debt. So we ended up diluting a lot. So I think it was biggest problem in 2005, six to raise a debt, right? No one was ready to give us a debt. Um, and second challenge was at that time, HR market was not considered to be a market. So no one was believing that an HR company can scale up. So that was a very hard thing for Shelly, myself and other founding members who are a part of our team. To convince the market. And third was, uh, you know, we were mentally prepared, but when rubber modes meets the road, then you realize how hard it is to, uh, build an enterprise. So, um, so learning, selling, uh, learning investor relations were very, very hard initially. Very hard.

AI assessment note: “I think biggest challenge was no one gave us debt. So we ended up diluting”

Q As an entrepreneur, I myself faced many crushing moments, many moments of depression. For me personally, meditation, reading, discussing with other senior entrepreneurs helped. How did you deal with depression in your journey?

A So I think it, it, it happened, uh, at least, uh, three or four times, if not more, in last, uh, 13 years, if I remember distinctly. I think what helped is, uh, is, uh, the books that I referred to, uh, a lot of books really helped. Number two, um, somehow, I call it, uh, the path of spirit. So I think we all remain committed to that path, which is exploring the self part. And the self part, I'm not referring to religion. I'm referring to where you understand who you are. I think that journey really helped us. Some good steps, some bad steps we took. Uh, but for our top team, meditation is almost a way of life. Um, out of 11 people, at least six people does meditation regularly. So, it's been a part of our life. Uh, we have got, um, goal setting process for all our people, our top teams. That really helped us in coming out of depression. I'll look at the goals, and I'll pump up that energy in me. Um, and finally, we've never shied off in taking counsel. So I've gone to people and said, Hey, I'm, I'm down and out. I need your help. So people have guided and I have listened to them. And finally, again, I may be repeating a family or a kid in your family is a great way to come out of depression.

AI assessment note: “I think what helped is, uh, is, uh, the books that I referred to”

Q What makes you so grounded as an entrepreneur? What are your thoughts daily throughout your day, which keep you grounded, humble, and positive?

A My wife doesn't think so, but if you say that, then I'll believe. I think one is my team. I think I've got a fantastic team. So, so they are, we all are equal. Sometimes I have to play the role of first amongst equals because I'm the face of the company. I'm the CEO of the organization. So I end up doing that, but there is really no hierarchy in our top-level people. And I think they means no words. Whenever they see me on any kind of a horse, Or on a high, they bring me down by saying we don't like this side of the Pankaj. So I think they are the biggest contributors for keeping me grounded. Um, so they don't, they don't spare me if they see me in that zone. And secondly, probably life experiences. I get humbled when, whenever we get beaten down. And, uh, you know, that's the second thing. Third is when you do a lot of selling, you realize how tough it is to get time of others, how hard it is to convince people around you, how hard it is to remain authentic, Though sometimes you can take a short time. So, I think those things keep me grounded is what my belief is.

AI assessment note: “I think they are the biggest contributors for keeping me grounded.”

Q What lessons would you like to pass on to young entrepreneurs for fundraising, dealing with investors, and working with them?

A So one is be authentic. I think biggest problem sometimes is that, you know, we, we remain our authentic, we lose our authenticity for a variety of reasons, and investors can see it, right? Be authentic. Uh, number two, lot of times, uh, we end up communicating to investor that, uh, you know, are we really going to take care of their money? So, you know, there is no hard answer you can give. It's those soft answers, your behaviors, your reference in the market, which will tell people, which is a very big factor. Third is who are the people who are standing with you? We undermine the board, the advisors, but believe me, board and advisors play a biggest role, right? And I'm going in that sequence. Fourth is of course your customer story. If your customer is emotionally connected to you, and I'm not saying only this thing, at least some customers, hundred percent customers will never be happy, but are there customer stories where customers are not just financially, but emotionally connected to you? That's the very important aspect I, I see where, which investors typically love. And, uh, finally, they should know that this team will do whatever it takes. Uh, they have, they are in all in, you know, they, they don't have anything to fall back. If they see these things, I think, uh, they will go for you.

AI assessment note: “So one is be authentic... number two... Third is who are the people”

Q So, in terms of profits, investments, you seem to be an entrepreneur who is very well principally aligned, focused on profits. What's your thinking behind it?

A So, um, see it's very clear, you need to be, when you're building a product company, you need to focus enough on R&D so that your product remains the best in market. You should know your gross margins are right. That's an indicator that your factory is running well. That's what I learned from my investors that get the gross margins right. You may not get full libertad to begin with because you're investing in sales and marketing. You are investing in product. That's below line expenses. So it's fine. As long as your gross margins are right, your growth is right, you will become profitable. That's not a challenge. So that's my belief on the profit story. I believe that everyone should raise funding. Um, and my simple reason for that, because you cannot run factories on cashflow, uh, you will compromise growth, which is very, very important. Um, so you must do it. And number three, you cannot really attract good teams. If you're not funded, it becomes very hard to expect everyone around to you. Just think like you. It's, it's very, very tough. So I think, uh, this is my belief.

AI assessment note: “As long as your gross margins are right, your growth is right, you will become profitable.”

Q What were other failures in the business from 2009 to 2018? And what are the learnings from them?

A So the biggest barrier is, ah, again, getting attached to a product or a person. So I think this is my biggest learning. I, I have learned, you need to know when to kill a product. You need to know when to part ways with a person. It can be an employee. It can be an investor. It can be a friend. Because those are the toughest things or toughest decisions because you're attached to people and they also suck out your energy. If, if you are in a relationship, which is bad, they just suck you out. So I think that was the biggest lesson that I learned. Uh, other than that, we had to shift the whole business to SAS. It was very painful because we had people for a long time at people strong. So to help them to convert, sometimes I had to become hard. Sometimes my colleagues, my co-founders have to, Become extremely hard to tell people, hey, we are a SaaS company. We will not operate the way we operated earlier. We now sell products that customers want to use. We will not sell, ah, every time that customer can change, right? We, so that thinking was very painful, and people felt we were a little brutal at that time.

AI assessment note: “You need to know when to kill a product. You need to know when to”

Q So you said you are very organized. When you face a problem, how does your mindset work? You know, how do you dissect the problem?

A So I'm a, I'm a box thinker. So what I do is the moment I see problem, I break it down into three or four boxes. The moment I break it down into three or four boxes, I pick up one box where I can create the most impact. And then I go after that box. I'm also by nature is I talk to a lot of people whenever I'm in trouble. So I gather a lot of intelligence from the collective or the group. Uh, sometimes it slows down your decision making, but it's fine. I've been a fairly democratic person, I would like to believe, right? But eventually I take a call if my gut is there. But whenever I take a call, I try to take my people along. Uh, so we just say that we're going to jump together. We may fall or we may fly, but most of the times we flew. We didn't fall.

AI assessment note: “the moment I see problem, I break it down into three or four boxes”

Q What is your daily reading schedule? As you said, you learn a lot. And what kind of books do you read?

A So I, by the way, learn a lot while interacting with people. The number of meetings that I do, even with people which is related to my business or not, is, uh, is massive number. So I meet hundreds of people in a year. And even if they are not related to my business, new startups, entrepreneurs, spiritual people, I, I just keep meeting a lot of people. Um, I read at least one book in, in, uh, 14 to 15 days. So I finished one book. So two books in a In a, uh, in a month, uh, so that's what I do, and, uh, this reading can, there is, it's, there's no daily routine for a reading, but in a week, I will end up reading three hours.

AI assessment note: “there is, it's, there's no daily routine for a reading, but in a week”

Q What are the mistakes which you are proud of?

A So, you know, uh, one is, uh, that sometimes when, um, when I was parting and, uh, you know, I ended up fighting, right? So I just realized not that I'm really proud of, but probably that was my natural pankaj. If I become manipulative, uh, probably that's a shade that I see for myself when I'm in stress. So how do I make sure that next time when I do, I'm more authentic is what I have to learn, but I'm not really proud of, but I got, uh, aware about that part of myself, which I would have never got aware. Because, um, I could see that. Secondly, I think, uh, in the process, sometimes, uh, I ended up hurting people around me. Again, I'm not proud of it, but I'm saying I just learned that, uh, there are better ways, uh, to, to scale up, and you don't need to be on a horse and just ride over people, right? That's the second learning that I had. Um, and third is, of course, uh, we shut down Twice, um, our, uh, services which are not working out. They were very painful, um, they were big mistakes, but I'm proud that we did that, because if we wouldn't have done it, uh, we would have got killed.

AI assessment note: “they were big mistakes, but I'm proud that we did that”

Q What have been your moments of self doubt and how do you overcome them?

A So in, in 2009, Shelly and I thought we can't scale up. We need to get people who can scale it up. So that was a very, very stupid thinking. Uh, we just thought that, okay, we've never built a large enterprise. So how will we do that? That was a very stupid thought that we did and which costed a company and people around us a lot. So that was one thing. And we learned it the hard way. We had to spend money, go through that one or two years of pain. Um, second thing, as I told you, I've already talked about it is parting with people. So I think if you don't do it at right time, the cost becomes higher, the pain becomes higher. Uh, that's the second thing that we've learned. And thirdly is sometimes even with customers, you must learn to walk away and nicely hand over to them because there are relationships which don't click for whatever reasons. Uh, even if they talk bad about you, it's okay. You've got to take it on the face because at the end of the day, we are responsible for what happened. So say sorry to a customer and move on. I think, um, those things one should do, um, yeah, we've done, we took a little longer for doing that.

AI assessment note: “in 2009, Shelly and I thought we can't scale up.”