StarZero All shows Try the podcast clipper →

Jul 24, 2018 · 32m · masters-of-scale

How to kill your bad ideas (with Zynga's Mark Pincus)

Reid Hoffman · 16m spoken Mark Pincus · 7m spoken Andrea Jones-Rooy · 1m spoken Matt Ruby · 58s spoken Marissa Mayer · 23s spoken Vooza Video Actor · 14s spoken Edison's Talking Doll · 12s spoken
0:00 / 0:00
▶ Watch on YouTube →

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of Masters of Scale, host Reid Hoffman and Zynga founder Mark Pincus explore why successful entrepreneurs must rigorously test and ruthlessly eliminate flawed concepts to unlock breakthrough ideas. Through historical anecdotes, comedy testing, and Zynga's data-driven growth strategies, the episode illustrates how rapid experimentation clears the path to massive business success.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The host holds 62% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

The host as informed peer 4.2 Guest teaching 2.9 Guest disagreement 1.0 The host pushing back 0.8
05100:0010:0020:0030:000:00–3:15 · The host as informed peer 0/10 Thomas Edison's Talking Doll Flop Introductory historical monologue where Hoffman narrates the failure of Thomas Edison's talking doll to establish the episode's core theme of killing bad ideas. Host-side scores are zeroed out due to the monologue format.3:15–5:36 · The host as informed peer 5/10 Introducing Mark Pincus and the Art of Idea Killing Hoffman introduces Mark Pincus and lays out the foundational thesis on why founders must ruthlessly discard ineffective ideas.5:36–8:09 · The host as informed peer 4/10 Lessons from Tower Records and Support.com Pincus recounts his early realization outside Tower Records that customers distrusted free hardware, pivoting to Support.com.8:09–11:18 · The host as informed peer 6/10 The Failure of Tribe and Separating Instincts from Ideas Hoffman politely pushes back against Pincus's harsh self-assessment of Tribe's demise and questions his strict 95/25 percentage rule regarding instincts versus ideas.11:18–13:20 · The host as informed peer 3/10 Testing Ideas on Stage with Comedian Matt Ruby Comedian Matt Ruby explains using audience real-time feedback to iterate or discard joke premises.13:20–18:05 · The host as informed peer 5/10 The Genesis of Zynga and Low-Friction Social Gaming Pincus details his insight regarding latent demand for low-friction casual social gaming, with Hoffman adding industry context.18:05–23:00 · The host as informed peer 5/10 Guerrilla Testing and Bold Beats at Zynga Pincus explains guerrilla testing fake features and the discovery of bold beats such as moving animals in FarmVille.23:00–26:52 · The host as informed peer 4/10 Data Standardization with Guest Andrea Jones-Rooy Data analyst Andrea Jones-Rooy educates the audience on why unstandardized data breaks communication, sharing her failed grading scale experiment at NYU Shanghai.26:52–29:12 · The host as informed peer 5/10 Over-Investing in Data Analytics for Competitive Advantage Pincus reflects on defying industry criticism by aggressively hiring data analysts instead of game developers to maintain analytic dominance.29:12–31:17 · The host as informed peer 5/10 Customer Experience and Pixel-Level Quality Control Pincus uses provocative language to argue against scaling at the cost of product quality, prompting Hoffman to contextualize the statement.0:00–3:15 · Guest teaching 0/10 Thomas Edison's Talking Doll Flop Introductory historical monologue where Hoffman narrates the failure of Thomas Edison's talking doll to establish the episode's core theme of killing bad ideas. Host-side scores are zeroed out due to the monologue format.3:15–5:36 · Guest teaching 0/10 Introducing Mark Pincus and the Art of Idea Killing Hoffman introduces Mark Pincus and lays out the foundational thesis on why founders must ruthlessly discard ineffective ideas.5:36–8:09 · Guest teaching 3/10 Lessons from Tower Records and Support.com Pincus recounts his early realization outside Tower Records that customers distrusted free hardware, pivoting to Support.com.8:09–11:18 · Guest teaching 4/10 The Failure of Tribe and Separating Instincts from Ideas Hoffman politely pushes back against Pincus's harsh self-assessment of Tribe's demise and questions his strict 95/25 percentage rule regarding instincts versus ideas.11:18–13:20 · Guest teaching 4/10 Testing Ideas on Stage with Comedian Matt Ruby Comedian Matt Ruby explains using audience real-time feedback to iterate or discard joke premises.13:20–18:05 · Guest teaching 3/10 The Genesis of Zynga and Low-Friction Social Gaming Pincus details his insight regarding latent demand for low-friction casual social gaming, with Hoffman adding industry context.18:05–23:00 · Guest teaching 3/10 Guerrilla Testing and Bold Beats at Zynga Pincus explains guerrilla testing fake features and the discovery of bold beats such as moving animals in FarmVille.23:00–26:52 · Guest teaching 5/10 Data Standardization with Guest Andrea Jones-Rooy Data analyst Andrea Jones-Rooy educates the audience on why unstandardized data breaks communication, sharing her failed grading scale experiment at NYU Shanghai.26:52–29:12 · Guest teaching 4/10 Over-Investing in Data Analytics for Competitive Advantage Pincus reflects on defying industry criticism by aggressively hiring data analysts instead of game developers to maintain analytic dominance.29:12–31:17 · Guest teaching 3/10 Customer Experience and Pixel-Level Quality Control Pincus uses provocative language to argue against scaling at the cost of product quality, prompting Hoffman to contextualize the statement.0:00–3:15 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Thomas Edison's Talking Doll Flop Introductory historical monologue where Hoffman narrates the failure of Thomas Edison's talking doll to establish the episode's core theme of killing bad ideas. Host-side scores are zeroed out due to the monologue format.3:15–5:36 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Introducing Mark Pincus and the Art of Idea Killing Hoffman introduces Mark Pincus and lays out the foundational thesis on why founders must ruthlessly discard ineffective ideas.5:36–8:09 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Lessons from Tower Records and Support.com Pincus recounts his early realization outside Tower Records that customers distrusted free hardware, pivoting to Support.com.8:09–11:18 · Guest disagreement 2/10 The Failure of Tribe and Separating Instincts from Ideas Hoffman politely pushes back against Pincus's harsh self-assessment of Tribe's demise and questions his strict 95/25 percentage rule regarding instincts versus ideas.11:18–13:20 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Testing Ideas on Stage with Comedian Matt Ruby Comedian Matt Ruby explains using audience real-time feedback to iterate or discard joke premises.13:20–18:05 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Genesis of Zynga and Low-Friction Social Gaming Pincus details his insight regarding latent demand for low-friction casual social gaming, with Hoffman adding industry context.18:05–23:00 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Guerrilla Testing and Bold Beats at Zynga Pincus explains guerrilla testing fake features and the discovery of bold beats such as moving animals in FarmVille.23:00–26:52 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Data Standardization with Guest Andrea Jones-Rooy Data analyst Andrea Jones-Rooy educates the audience on why unstandardized data breaks communication, sharing her failed grading scale experiment at NYU Shanghai.26:52–29:12 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Over-Investing in Data Analytics for Competitive Advantage Pincus reflects on defying industry criticism by aggressively hiring data analysts instead of game developers to maintain analytic dominance.29:12–31:17 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Customer Experience and Pixel-Level Quality Control Pincus uses provocative language to argue against scaling at the cost of product quality, prompting Hoffman to contextualize the statement.0:00–3:15 · The host pushing back 0/10 Thomas Edison's Talking Doll Flop Introductory historical monologue where Hoffman narrates the failure of Thomas Edison's talking doll to establish the episode's core theme of killing bad ideas. Host-side scores are zeroed out due to the monologue format.3:15–5:36 · The host pushing back 0/10 Introducing Mark Pincus and the Art of Idea Killing Hoffman introduces Mark Pincus and lays out the foundational thesis on why founders must ruthlessly discard ineffective ideas.5:36–8:09 · The host pushing back 0/10 Lessons from Tower Records and Support.com Pincus recounts his early realization outside Tower Records that customers distrusted free hardware, pivoting to Support.com.8:09–11:18 · The host pushing back 5/10 The Failure of Tribe and Separating Instincts from Ideas Hoffman politely pushes back against Pincus's harsh self-assessment of Tribe's demise and questions his strict 95/25 percentage rule regarding instincts versus ideas.11:18–13:20 · The host pushing back 0/10 Testing Ideas on Stage with Comedian Matt Ruby Comedian Matt Ruby explains using audience real-time feedback to iterate or discard joke premises.13:20–18:05 · The host pushing back 0/10 The Genesis of Zynga and Low-Friction Social Gaming Pincus details his insight regarding latent demand for low-friction casual social gaming, with Hoffman adding industry context.18:05–23:00 · The host pushing back 0/10 Guerrilla Testing and Bold Beats at Zynga Pincus explains guerrilla testing fake features and the discovery of bold beats such as moving animals in FarmVille.23:00–26:52 · The host pushing back 0/10 Data Standardization with Guest Andrea Jones-Rooy Data analyst Andrea Jones-Rooy educates the audience on why unstandardized data breaks communication, sharing her failed grading scale experiment at NYU Shanghai.26:52–29:12 · The host pushing back 0/10 Over-Investing in Data Analytics for Competitive Advantage Pincus reflects on defying industry criticism by aggressively hiring data analysts instead of game developers to maintain analytic dominance.29:12–31:17 · The host pushing back 3/10 Customer Experience and Pixel-Level Quality Control Pincus uses provocative language to argue against scaling at the cost of product quality, prompting Hoffman to contextualize the statement.

speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · the host 91.2% · guest 8.8%0:00 · the host 91.2% · guest 8.8%3:00 · the host 83.6% · guest 16.4%3:00 · the host 83.6% · guest 16.4%6:00 · the host 58.5% · guest 41.5%6:00 · the host 58.5% · guest 41.5%9:00 · the host 55.4% · guest 44.6%9:00 · the host 55.4% · guest 44.6%12:00 · the host 34.3% · guest 65.7%12:00 · the host 34.3% · guest 65.7%15:00 · the host 52.4% · guest 47.6%15:00 · the host 52.4% · guest 47.6%18:00 · the host 59.3% · guest 40.7%18:00 · the host 59.3% · guest 40.7%21:00 · the host 54.6% · guest 45.4%21:00 · the host 54.6% · guest 45.4%24:00 · the host 46.3% · guest 53.7%24:00 · the host 46.3% · guest 53.7%27:00 · the host 68.7% · guest 31.3%27:00 · the host 68.7% · guest 31.3%30:00 · the host 77% · guest 23%30:00 · the host 77% · guest 23%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 29:10 Mark Pincus dismisses blind scale obsession

Pincus uses deliberately abrasive phrasing to argue that customers do not care about scale, directly challenging conventional tech orthodoxy.

 Hardest push from the host ▶ 10:02 Hoffman disputes Pincus's self-blame and rigid formulas

Hoffman explicitly contradicts Pincus, arguing he is being too hard on himself regarding Tribe and rejecting his rigid percentage breakdown of instincts versus ideas.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 24:54 Andrea Jones-Rooy on unstandardized data pitfalls

Jones-Rooy demonstrates the necessity of standardized metrics by walking through the severe real-world failure of creating an unconventional academic grading scale.

 The host holds their own ▶ 13:13 Hoffman maps Tribe's instincts to Reddit and LinkedIn

Hoffman showcases deep industry expertise by synthesizing how Pincus's underlying instincts at Tribe were actually validated separately by Reddit, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicThe host as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementThe host pushing backWhy
Thomas Edison's Talking Doll Flop 0000 Introductory historical monologue where Hoffman narrates the failure of Thomas Edison's talking doll to establish the episode's core theme of killing bad ideas. Host-side scores are zeroed out due to the monologue format.
Introducing Mark Pincus and the Art of Idea Killing 5000 Hoffman introduces Mark Pincus and lays out the foundational thesis on why founders must ruthlessly discard ineffective ideas.
Lessons from Tower Records and Support.com 4300 Pincus recounts his early realization outside Tower Records that customers distrusted free hardware, pivoting to Support.com.
The Failure of Tribe and Separating Instincts from Ideas 6425 Hoffman politely pushes back against Pincus's harsh self-assessment of Tribe's demise and questions his strict 95/25 percentage rule regarding instincts versus ideas.
Testing Ideas on Stage with Comedian Matt Ruby 3410 Comedian Matt Ruby explains using audience real-time feedback to iterate or discard joke premises.
The Genesis of Zynga and Low-Friction Social Gaming 5300 Pincus details his insight regarding latent demand for low-friction casual social gaming, with Hoffman adding industry context.
Guerrilla Testing and Bold Beats at Zynga 5300 Pincus explains guerrilla testing fake features and the discovery of bold beats such as moving animals in FarmVille.
Data Standardization with Guest Andrea Jones-Rooy 4510 Data analyst Andrea Jones-Rooy educates the audience on why unstandardized data breaks communication, sharing her failed grading scale experiment at NYU Shanghai.
Over-Investing in Data Analytics for Competitive Advantage 5420 Pincus reflects on defying industry criticism by aggressively hiring data analysts instead of game developers to maintain analytic dominance.
Customer Experience and Pixel-Level Quality Control 5343 Pincus uses provocative language to argue against scaling at the cost of product quality, prompting Hoffman to contextualize the statement.

Statements from this episode (10)

Insight
Pincus: Software migration friction was the primary barrier to PC upgrades
“The insight we had from that was that the number one thing stopping people from ever going and getting a new PC was this fear of moving their software and the idea of having to reinstall their kids' games and everything else.”
Mark Pincus Jul 24, 2018 ▶ 6:53
Insight
Pincus: A focus group of one can outweigh other data
“Sometimes you can get a focus group of one that's more powerful than the rest of your data, and that one was probably it.”
Mark Pincus Jul 24, 2018 ▶ 9:33
Insight
Pincus: Good founders have 95% right instincts but 25% right ideas
“The lesson from Tribe that came resoundingly out for me and still stands out, that as entrepreneurs, part of the journey that we're on is learning how to separate our winning instincts from our losing ideas. I think as a rule of thumb, if you're a good entrepr…”
Mark Pincus Jul 24, 2018 ▶ 10:21
Insight
Matt Ruby: Audience room engagement can validate an idea before punchlines land
“Something might not get a laugh, but you can feel in the room that you've hit on something. You have an idea that might be captivating to people or provocative or has them on the edge of their seat waiting to see where you're going with it. And then even if yo…”
Matt Ruby Jul 24, 2018 ▶ 12:37
Disclosure
Pincus: Zynga operated on willingness to try and rapidly kill any idea
“Out of that, for me, came this mentality that I brought into Zynga of, I'm not wedded to any idea. Whether it's mine, yours, someone else's, I'll try anything, and I'll kill anything, and I'll kill it quickly.”
Mark Pincus Jul 24, 2018 ▶ 14:42
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Pincus: Legacy studios spent $15M-$20M over two years before testing demand
“At the time, game companies would build an entire game and take even two years and 15, twenty million dollars before they even know if anyone wanted it, and we could come out with it on the web, maybe only spend four weeks.”
Mark Pincus Jul 24, 2018 ▶ 18:06
Insight
Pincus: Features are worth building if half the audience clicks a promo
“And I generally said, if half your audience clicks on it, you pretty much know it's an idea worth pursuing.”
Mark Pincus Jul 24, 2018 ▶ 19:30
Insight
Pincus: A successful 'bold beat' extends game player retention by months
“And if a bold beat is right, it could lead to inspiring your players to really imagine a new dimension that that gameplay can go to and inspire you to play for another three months or another year.”
Mark Pincus Jul 24, 2018 ▶ 21:37
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Pincus: Zynga Tracked Every Click When Rivals Relied on Google Analytics
“We were pushing it more than anybody because we went to tracking every click and analyzing it at a time that they were using Google Analytics.”
Mark Pincus Jul 24, 2018 ▶ 27:13
Insight
Pincus: Customers Care About Experience, Not Operational Scale
“What really matters to your customer is that they have an amazing experience. They don't give a how it got there. You're at your favorite hamburger joint. You want a great fresh burger. And if you find out that the owner of the company was there back there mak…”
Mark Pincus Jul 24, 2018 ▶ 29:42
Made with StarZero

Turn any episode into a week of clips.

This entire site, about 200 episodes transcribed, diarized, checked and made playable, runs on the StarZero media pipeline. Drop in your own episode and the podcast clipper finds the moments worth sharing, cuts them, captions them, and reframes them for every feed.

Try the podcast clipper Learn more