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Jan 16, 2014 · 22m · mad

Itai Gurari, Judicata // Data Driven NYC 21 // Dec 2013 (Hosted by FirstMark Capital)

Itai Gurari · 15m spoken Jonathan Dayton · 48s spoken Matt Turck · 44s spoken Ray Prisman · 32s spoken Jonathan Phillip · 19s spoken Misha Sobolev · 17s spoken Tony Baer · 15s spoken
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At Data Driven NYC, Judicata CEO Itai Gurari presents how his company transforms unstructured judicial opinions into structured data by combining machine learning algorithms with structured human workflows. He demonstrates Judicata's legal research platform, outlines its competitive strategy against market incumbents, and discusses operational scalability during an audience Q&A session.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Matt holds 4.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Matt as informed peer 0.5 Guest teaching 2.8 Guest disagreement 0.7 Matt pushing back 0.3
05100:0010:0020:000:31–3:07 · Matt as informed peer 0/10 Case Study: Bennett v. State Farm and Facts vs. Principles In this solo presentation segment, Itai uses the Bennett v. State Farm case study to explain the difference between legal principles and facts. The host does not speak, making host scores zero.3:07–7:09 · Matt as informed peer 0/10 Visual Interface Demonstration of Judicata's Data Model Itai presents Judicata's visual interface and data transformation model, explaining manual versus automated functions. Host participation is absent during this monologue.7:09–10:01 · Matt as informed peer 0/10 Competitive Landscape of the Legal Research Market Itai maps out the legal research market across incumbents like Westlaw, LexisNexis, Bloomberg, and Google Scholar, explaining Judicata's strategy. The host remains silent.10:01–13:23 · Matt as informed peer 0/10 Workflow Optimization and Building a Legal Ontology Itai details how Judicata breaks down complex legal ontology building (traditionally done by single legal experts like Nimmer) into 16 automated and low-skilled sub-tasks. The host does not intervene.13:23–16:21 · Matt as informed peer 0/10 Presentation Conclusion: Process Innovation in Legal Tech Itai concludes his talk and answers questions from audience members Tony Baer and Ray Prisman regarding market positioning and legal writing reform. Host Matt Turck does not ask questions in this segment.16:21–19:31 · Matt as informed peer 3/10 Q&A: Team Structure, Domain Scalability, and Defense Against Incumbents Host Matt Turck enters the discussion, asking about team composition and probing whether the core logic scales across legal verticals. Itai also forcefully rejects an audience question about Westlaw easily copying their model.0:31–3:07 · Guest teaching 2/10 Case Study: Bennett v. State Farm and Facts vs. Principles In this solo presentation segment, Itai uses the Bennett v. State Farm case study to explain the difference between legal principles and facts. The host does not speak, making host scores zero.3:07–7:09 · Guest teaching 3/10 Visual Interface Demonstration of Judicata's Data Model Itai presents Judicata's visual interface and data transformation model, explaining manual versus automated functions. Host participation is absent during this monologue.7:09–10:01 · Guest teaching 3/10 Competitive Landscape of the Legal Research Market Itai maps out the legal research market across incumbents like Westlaw, LexisNexis, Bloomberg, and Google Scholar, explaining Judicata's strategy. The host remains silent.10:01–13:23 · Guest teaching 3/10 Workflow Optimization and Building a Legal Ontology Itai details how Judicata breaks down complex legal ontology building (traditionally done by single legal experts like Nimmer) into 16 automated and low-skilled sub-tasks. The host does not intervene.13:23–16:21 · Guest teaching 2/10 Presentation Conclusion: Process Innovation in Legal Tech Itai concludes his talk and answers questions from audience members Tony Baer and Ray Prisman regarding market positioning and legal writing reform. Host Matt Turck does not ask questions in this segment.16:21–19:31 · Guest teaching 4/10 Q&A: Team Structure, Domain Scalability, and Defense Against Incumbents Host Matt Turck enters the discussion, asking about team composition and probing whether the core logic scales across legal verticals. Itai also forcefully rejects an audience question about Westlaw easily copying their model.0:31–3:07 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Case Study: Bennett v. State Farm and Facts vs. Principles In this solo presentation segment, Itai uses the Bennett v. State Farm case study to explain the difference between legal principles and facts. The host does not speak, making host scores zero.3:07–7:09 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Visual Interface Demonstration of Judicata's Data Model Itai presents Judicata's visual interface and data transformation model, explaining manual versus automated functions. Host participation is absent during this monologue.7:09–10:01 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Competitive Landscape of the Legal Research Market Itai maps out the legal research market across incumbents like Westlaw, LexisNexis, Bloomberg, and Google Scholar, explaining Judicata's strategy. The host remains silent.10:01–13:23 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Workflow Optimization and Building a Legal Ontology Itai details how Judicata breaks down complex legal ontology building (traditionally done by single legal experts like Nimmer) into 16 automated and low-skilled sub-tasks. The host does not intervene.13:23–16:21 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Presentation Conclusion: Process Innovation in Legal Tech Itai concludes his talk and answers questions from audience members Tony Baer and Ray Prisman regarding market positioning and legal writing reform. Host Matt Turck does not ask questions in this segment.16:21–19:31 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Q&A: Team Structure, Domain Scalability, and Defense Against Incumbents Host Matt Turck enters the discussion, asking about team composition and probing whether the core logic scales across legal verticals. Itai also forcefully rejects an audience question about Westlaw easily copying their model.0:31–3:07 · Matt pushing back 0/10 Case Study: Bennett v. State Farm and Facts vs. Principles In this solo presentation segment, Itai uses the Bennett v. State Farm case study to explain the difference between legal principles and facts. The host does not speak, making host scores zero.3:07–7:09 · Matt pushing back 0/10 Visual Interface Demonstration of Judicata's Data Model Itai presents Judicata's visual interface and data transformation model, explaining manual versus automated functions. Host participation is absent during this monologue.7:09–10:01 · Matt pushing back 0/10 Competitive Landscape of the Legal Research Market Itai maps out the legal research market across incumbents like Westlaw, LexisNexis, Bloomberg, and Google Scholar, explaining Judicata's strategy. The host remains silent.10:01–13:23 · Matt pushing back 0/10 Workflow Optimization and Building a Legal Ontology Itai details how Judicata breaks down complex legal ontology building (traditionally done by single legal experts like Nimmer) into 16 automated and low-skilled sub-tasks. The host does not intervene.13:23–16:21 · Matt pushing back 0/10 Presentation Conclusion: Process Innovation in Legal Tech Itai concludes his talk and answers questions from audience members Tony Baer and Ray Prisman regarding market positioning and legal writing reform. Host Matt Turck does not ask questions in this segment.16:21–19:31 · Matt pushing back 2/10 Q&A: Team Structure, Domain Scalability, and Defense Against Incumbents Host Matt Turck enters the discussion, asking about team composition and probing whether the core logic scales across legal verticals. Itai also forcefully rejects an audience question about Westlaw easily copying their model.

speaking balance: gold is Matt, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Matt 1% · guest 99%0:00 · Matt 1% · guest 99%3:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%3:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%6:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%6:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%9:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%9:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%12:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%12:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%15:00 · Matt 12.7% · guest 87.3%15:00 · Matt 12.7% · guest 87.3%18:00 · Matt 2.9% · guest 97.1%18:00 · Matt 2.9% · guest 97.1%21:00 · Matt 44.1% · guest 55.9%21:00 · Matt 44.1% · guest 55.9%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 18:42 Rejection of Incumbent Replicability

Itai strongly rejects Jonathan Dayton's premise that Westlaw could easily copy Judicata by throwing 800 lawyers at targeted search, insisting that process and technology are far more critical than raw human headcount.

 Hardest push from Matt ▶ 16:55 Host Probes Domain Scalability

Host Matt Turck directly challenges Itai on whether Judicata's underlying tech and legal genome logic truly work across diverse legal verticals beyond their initial test cases.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 18:42 Process Engineering over Human Scale

Itai educates the room on why legal research automation is a process engineering challenge rather than a brute-force headcount problem, pointing out failed attempts by Bloomberg and LexisNexis.

 Matt holds his own ▶ 16:55 Host Frame on Legal Genome Logic

Matt Turck demonstrates strong technical understanding of Judicata's proposition by asking whether the legal genome concept holds universally across distinct case categories.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicMatt as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementMatt pushing backWhy
Case Study: Bennett v. State Farm and Facts vs. Principles 0200 In this solo presentation segment, Itai uses the Bennett v. State Farm case study to explain the difference between legal principles and facts. The host does not speak, making host scores zero.
Visual Interface Demonstration of Judicata's Data Model 0300 Itai presents Judicata's visual interface and data transformation model, explaining manual versus automated functions. Host participation is absent during this monologue.
Competitive Landscape of the Legal Research Market 0300 Itai maps out the legal research market across incumbents like Westlaw, LexisNexis, Bloomberg, and Google Scholar, explaining Judicata's strategy. The host remains silent.
Workflow Optimization and Building a Legal Ontology 0300 Itai details how Judicata breaks down complex legal ontology building (traditionally done by single legal experts like Nimmer) into 16 automated and low-skilled sub-tasks. The host does not intervene.
Presentation Conclusion: Process Innovation in Legal Tech 0210 Itai concludes his talk and answers questions from audience members Tony Baer and Ray Prisman regarding market positioning and legal writing reform. Host Matt Turck does not ask questions in this segment.
Q&A: Team Structure, Domain Scalability, and Defense Against Incumbents 3432 Host Matt Turck enters the discussion, asking about team composition and probing whether the core logic scales across legal verticals. Itai also forcefully rejects an audience question about Westlaw easily copying their model.

Statements from this episode (10)

Disclosure
Judicata transforms unstructured case law into structured data
“What we're doing is, ah, transforming unstructured case law into structured data.”
Itai Gurari Jan 16, 2014 ▶ 3:08
Insight
Humans maintain an advantage over computers in handling varied data inputs
“The one place where people make a big difference and actually have a leg up on the computers is that people can handle a broad range of data inputs.”
Itai Gurari Jan 16, 2014 ▶ 4:58
Assertion Supported
Westlaw employs 800 attorney editors to structure case law
“They are the dominant case law publisher in the country, and they boast a staff of 800 attorney editors. They have 800 people who are reading opinions, adding structure to it, and summarizing, doing work like that.”
Itai Gurari Jan 16, 2014 ▶ 7:36
Assertion Supported
Bloomberg acquired BNA for approximately $1 billion
“More recently they bought BNA, which is a company that was founded in two, in 1929. For about a billion dollars.”
Itai Gurari Jan 16, 2014 ▶ 8:14
Disclosure
Judicata raised $8 million from Peter Thiel and Khosla Ventures
“We've been fortunate enough to have raised about eight million dollars from Peter Thiel and Coastal Ventures, and it's allowing us to do everything we want to do, but at the same time, it's not the half a billion dollars that some of our competitors have.”
Itai Gurari Jan 16, 2014 ▶ 9:46
Assertion Not checkable as stated
NLP is not yet advanced enough to fully automate legal research
“The NLP isn't quite there. It may never get there.”
Itai Gurari Jan 16, 2014 ▶ 10:16
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Judicata cuts legal ontology creation time from one year to weeks
“And at the end, we've broken down this process into something that instead of taking a year, might take two weeks or four weeks.”
Itai Gurari Jan 16, 2014 ▶ 13:17
Disclosure
Judicata will start as a niche and won't cover all US jurisdictions soon
“So really, it's, ah, it'll start off as a niche. I mean, we're not going to have all the jurisdictions in the country for a long time, but it allows something to be done that couldn't otherwise be done.”
Itai Gurari Jan 16, 2014 ▶ 15:15
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Bloomberg and LexisNexis failed at structuring legal data
“Bloomberg tried to do a lot of the things that we were doing and did not succeed. Lexus has tried to do a lot of these things and has not succeeded. It's not something where you just throw resources at it.”
Itai Gurari Jan 16, 2014 ▶ 18:50
Disclosure
Judicata experiments with Mechanical Turk for low-skilled legal data tasks
“We do some experimentation with, ah, mechanical torque in terms of low-skilled labor, and we're able to develop tasks with, ah, a high amount of, sort of, classification or training, so we can get people who can perform these tasks, and then we can do enough s…”
Itai Gurari Jan 16, 2014 ▶ 19:56
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