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Jun 4, 2024 · 39m · founders-journal

How to Become a Marketing Master (Noah Kagan, Appsumo & Million Dollar Weekend)

Noah Kagan · 20m spoken Alex Lieberman · 13m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of Founders Journal Rebooted, host Alex Lieberman interviews AppSumo CEO Noah Kagan to break down the 'Growth Machine' framework, exploring systematic channel experimentation, grassroots launch tactics, and a live growth teardown of Lieberman's copywriting agency.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Alex holds 40.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Alex as informed peer 3.5 Guest teaching 4.7 Guest disagreement 2.2 Alex pushing back 1.7
05100:0010:0020:0030:001:33–10:07 · Alex as informed peer 3/10 The Growth Machine Framework and Systematic Experimentation Noah lays out the foundational steps of his Growth Machine framework and bluntly tells Alex his StoryArb website is unoptimized and driving very little traffic. Alex accepts the criticism readily and asks clarifying follow-ups regarding test durations.10:07–19:14 · Alex as informed peer 6/10 The Five Core Growth Questions and Sales Projections Alex demonstrates impressive command of Noah's book, quoting the Belay Shades case study and the exact unit projections from memory. Noah elaborates on copying successful book bundles and testing high-tier price anchors.19:15–25:59 · Alex as informed peer 4/10 Grassroots Promotion, Pre-Influencers, and High-Leverage Media Noah explains low-friction launch tactics, manual DMs, and leveraging pre-influencers before big breaks. Alex adds observations on creating perceived omnipresence in niche markets.25:59–28:06 · Alex as informed peer 3/10 Unsolicited Pre-Work as an Acquisition Strategy for Beginners Alex challenges Noah to provide actionable tactics for beginners who lack pre-existing audiences or relationships. Noah introduces the concept of unsolicited pre-work using Jay Yang's story as proof.28:06–38:52 · Alex as informed peer 5/10 Live Teardown of StoryArb's Growth and Positioning Strategy Alex presents his ambitious financial projections and promotional blitz strategy for StoryArb. Noah directly challenges the premise, telling Alex he is jumping ahead to marketing gimmicks instead of clarifying his ideal customer profile and positioning.38:53–39:10 · Alex as informed peer 0/10 Episode Conclusion and Call for Listener Feedback Alex delivers a brief solo sign-off and solicits feedback from the listeners on the new interview format.1:33–10:07 · Guest teaching 6/10 The Growth Machine Framework and Systematic Experimentation Noah lays out the foundational steps of his Growth Machine framework and bluntly tells Alex his StoryArb website is unoptimized and driving very little traffic. Alex accepts the criticism readily and asks clarifying follow-ups regarding test durations.10:07–19:14 · Guest teaching 4/10 The Five Core Growth Questions and Sales Projections Alex demonstrates impressive command of Noah's book, quoting the Belay Shades case study and the exact unit projections from memory. Noah elaborates on copying successful book bundles and testing high-tier price anchors.19:15–25:59 · Guest teaching 5/10 Grassroots Promotion, Pre-Influencers, and High-Leverage Media Noah explains low-friction launch tactics, manual DMs, and leveraging pre-influencers before big breaks. Alex adds observations on creating perceived omnipresence in niche markets.25:59–28:06 · Guest teaching 6/10 Unsolicited Pre-Work as an Acquisition Strategy for Beginners Alex challenges Noah to provide actionable tactics for beginners who lack pre-existing audiences or relationships. Noah introduces the concept of unsolicited pre-work using Jay Yang's story as proof.28:06–38:52 · Guest teaching 7/10 Live Teardown of StoryArb's Growth and Positioning Strategy Alex presents his ambitious financial projections and promotional blitz strategy for StoryArb. Noah directly challenges the premise, telling Alex he is jumping ahead to marketing gimmicks instead of clarifying his ideal customer profile and positioning.38:53–39:10 · Guest teaching 0/10 Episode Conclusion and Call for Listener Feedback Alex delivers a brief solo sign-off and solicits feedback from the listeners on the new interview format.1:33–10:07 · Guest disagreement 3/10 The Growth Machine Framework and Systematic Experimentation Noah lays out the foundational steps of his Growth Machine framework and bluntly tells Alex his StoryArb website is unoptimized and driving very little traffic. Alex accepts the criticism readily and asks clarifying follow-ups regarding test durations.10:07–19:14 · Guest disagreement 2/10 The Five Core Growth Questions and Sales Projections Alex demonstrates impressive command of Noah's book, quoting the Belay Shades case study and the exact unit projections from memory. Noah elaborates on copying successful book bundles and testing high-tier price anchors.19:15–25:59 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Grassroots Promotion, Pre-Influencers, and High-Leverage Media Noah explains low-friction launch tactics, manual DMs, and leveraging pre-influencers before big breaks. Alex adds observations on creating perceived omnipresence in niche markets.25:59–28:06 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Unsolicited Pre-Work as an Acquisition Strategy for Beginners Alex challenges Noah to provide actionable tactics for beginners who lack pre-existing audiences or relationships. Noah introduces the concept of unsolicited pre-work using Jay Yang's story as proof.28:06–38:52 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Live Teardown of StoryArb's Growth and Positioning Strategy Alex presents his ambitious financial projections and promotional blitz strategy for StoryArb. Noah directly challenges the premise, telling Alex he is jumping ahead to marketing gimmicks instead of clarifying his ideal customer profile and positioning.38:53–39:10 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Episode Conclusion and Call for Listener Feedback Alex delivers a brief solo sign-off and solicits feedback from the listeners on the new interview format.1:33–10:07 · Alex pushing back 2/10 The Growth Machine Framework and Systematic Experimentation Noah lays out the foundational steps of his Growth Machine framework and bluntly tells Alex his StoryArb website is unoptimized and driving very little traffic. Alex accepts the criticism readily and asks clarifying follow-ups regarding test durations.10:07–19:14 · Alex pushing back 2/10 The Five Core Growth Questions and Sales Projections Alex demonstrates impressive command of Noah's book, quoting the Belay Shades case study and the exact unit projections from memory. Noah elaborates on copying successful book bundles and testing high-tier price anchors.19:15–25:59 · Alex pushing back 1/10 Grassroots Promotion, Pre-Influencers, and High-Leverage Media Noah explains low-friction launch tactics, manual DMs, and leveraging pre-influencers before big breaks. Alex adds observations on creating perceived omnipresence in niche markets.25:59–28:06 · Alex pushing back 2/10 Unsolicited Pre-Work as an Acquisition Strategy for Beginners Alex challenges Noah to provide actionable tactics for beginners who lack pre-existing audiences or relationships. Noah introduces the concept of unsolicited pre-work using Jay Yang's story as proof.28:06–38:52 · Alex pushing back 3/10 Live Teardown of StoryArb's Growth and Positioning Strategy Alex presents his ambitious financial projections and promotional blitz strategy for StoryArb. Noah directly challenges the premise, telling Alex he is jumping ahead to marketing gimmicks instead of clarifying his ideal customer profile and positioning.38:53–39:10 · Alex pushing back 0/10 Episode Conclusion and Call for Listener Feedback Alex delivers a brief solo sign-off and solicits feedback from the listeners on the new interview format.

speaking balance: gold is Alex, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Alex 63.5% · guest 36.5%0:00 · Alex 63.5% · guest 36.5%3:00 · Alex 3% · guest 97%3:00 · Alex 3% · guest 97%6:00 · Alex 16% · guest 84%6:00 · Alex 16% · guest 84%9:00 · Alex 75.6% · guest 24.4%9:00 · Alex 75.6% · guest 24.4%12:00 · Alex 2.9% · guest 97.1%12:00 · Alex 2.9% · guest 97.1%15:00 · Alex 35.5% · guest 64.5%15:00 · Alex 35.5% · guest 64.5%18:00 · Alex 10.7% · guest 89.3%18:00 · Alex 10.7% · guest 89.3%21:00 · Alex 21.5% · guest 78.5%21:00 · Alex 21.5% · guest 78.5%24:00 · Alex 32.3% · guest 67.7%24:00 · Alex 32.3% · guest 67.7%27:00 · Alex 53% · guest 47%27:00 · Alex 53% · guest 47%30:00 · Alex 85.7% · guest 14.3%30:00 · Alex 85.7% · guest 14.3%33:00 · Alex 79.4% · guest 20.6%33:00 · Alex 79.4% · guest 20.6%36:00 · Alex 39.6% · guest 60.4%36:00 · Alex 39.6% · guest 60.4%39:00 · Alex 100% · guest 0%39:00 · Alex 100% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 9:15 Noah bluntly critiques Alex's website

Noah frankly dismisses Alex's current site setup, betting that less than 20% of conversions come from it because the landing page is not properly built out.

 Hardest push from Alex ▶ 25:58 Alex presses Noah on marketing without a built-in audience

Alex stops Noah to point out that all his tactics rely on having built-in distribution and asks what a true beginner with zero network should do.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 35:08 Noah pulls Alex back from vanity growth projections

Noah stops Alex's five-million-dollar blitz pitch to point out that he is prioritizing what he wants to make rather than what customers actually want to buy.

 Alex holds their own ▶ 10:40 Alex breaks down Noah's exact math and case studies

Alex showcases thorough preparation by walking through Noah's five core growth questions and detailing the unit economics of the Belay Shades example from memory.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicAlex as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementAlex pushing backWhy
The Growth Machine Framework and Systematic Experimentation 3632 Noah lays out the foundational steps of his Growth Machine framework and bluntly tells Alex his StoryArb website is unoptimized and driving very little traffic. Alex accepts the criticism readily and asks clarifying follow-ups regarding test durations.
The Five Core Growth Questions and Sales Projections 6422 Alex demonstrates impressive command of Noah's book, quoting the Belay Shades case study and the exact unit projections from memory. Noah elaborates on copying successful book bundles and testing high-tier price anchors.
Grassroots Promotion, Pre-Influencers, and High-Leverage Media 4521 Noah explains low-friction launch tactics, manual DMs, and leveraging pre-influencers before big breaks. Alex adds observations on creating perceived omnipresence in niche markets.
Unsolicited Pre-Work as an Acquisition Strategy for Beginners 3622 Alex challenges Noah to provide actionable tactics for beginners who lack pre-existing audiences or relationships. Noah introduces the concept of unsolicited pre-work using Jay Yang's story as proof.
Live Teardown of StoryArb's Growth and Positioning Strategy 5743 Alex presents his ambitious financial projections and promotional blitz strategy for StoryArb. Noah directly challenges the premise, telling Alex he is jumping ahead to marketing gimmicks instead of clarifying his ideal customer profile and positioning.
Episode Conclusion and Call for Listener Feedback 0000 Alex delivers a brief solo sign-off and solicits feedback from the listeners on the new interview format.

Statements from this episode (9)

Insight
Kagan: Most perceived marketing problems stem from products nobody wants
“Number one, it's like, have you made something people already want? I think needs to be something that, I think that's generally the problem people miss out on when they think they have marketing problems. Like, how do I market or promote this better? I'm like…”
Noah Kagan Jun 4, 2024 ▶ 2:22
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kagan: I spent millions on YouTube only to lack audience control
“So I've created this content and spent millions of dollars literally making it. And when I wanted to actually have the audience do something specific, like I was at the mercy of YouTube.”
Noah Kagan Jun 4, 2024 ▶ 3:44
Insight
Kagan: Marketing channel viability shows clear indicators within 30 days
“And I don't know if there's a binary number, but I definitely think within 30 days you can have clear indicators, whether ads or affiliate or PR or social or referrals, whatever it is, are working.”
Noah Kagan Jun 4, 2024 ▶ 8:42
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kagan: Personal email list generated 3,000 to 5,000 book sales
“Man, that's tough. It's tough to say probably in the range three to 5000.”
Noah Kagan Jun 4, 2024 ▶ 16:43
Opinion
Kagan: Sponsoring emerging 'pre-fluencers' is the most underrated marketing strategy
“I think the still most number one underrated marketing strategy is pre-fluencers.”
Noah Kagan Jun 4, 2024 ▶ 22:46
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kagan: Only 3 to 4 out of 100+ podcast appearances moved the needle
“I would say I did a hundred plus podcast The reality, even though it was good to practice on all of them, only three, I would say three or four really moved the needle.”
Noah Kagan Jun 4, 2024 ▶ 23:35
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kagan: High schooler earns six figures after sending unsolicited 19-page audit
“And because of that, I hired him on a trial, and now Jay, Jay makes six figures.”
Noah Kagan Jun 4, 2024 ▶ 27:31
Disclosure
Lieberman: StoryArb is at $130K run rate, targeting $240K for Q2
“Just to give you a sense of the business right now, it's like a 130 K top line right now, and the goal is end of this quarter to be at 240 K top line.”
Alex Lieberman Jun 4, 2024 ▶ 31:02
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Lieberman targets $5M revenue run rate for StoryArb by Q3 end
“So basically, to get to, my goal is by the end of Q-three, I want us to be at a five million dollar run rate.”
Alex Lieberman Jun 4, 2024 ▶ 32:41
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