The Exchanges

Q you actually had the interest and the ability to call people and raise eight hundred million dollars over a weekend. How about the affiliates? So now you have new funds. There's some implicit endorsement of Chris and TCI. What were the experience like? And you can either take them one by one, or why don't we start with the one that was The least appetizing on the surface to investors?

A There were four affiliates. One of them still exists, Parvis, who I work with today, who are great. There was an India fund, TCI New Horizon. There was a financial fund, Algebras, which is huge today. And then there was a ex-Fidelity guy called KDA Capital. So KDA was probably the hardest one to do. But I think part of that is because we'd just done an India fund, and three months later we were doing another fund. So I think the volume of kind of reach out was a lot. And Parvis wasn't that old already, and it was already European-based. So that was probably the toughest one. It probably took us 18 months to get to a billion, which people probably today think, well, that's not bad at all, but in those days it was a long time, versus an Algebras, which launched day one with 1.1 billion of demand. It's the largest sector fund launch in history, and we start with six 75 day one, then took it over time. So

AI assessment note: “There were four affiliates... So KDA was probably the hardest one to do.”

Q Rahul, one of the things that you rarely talk about is your day job, working with Eduardo Mercadante at Parvis, and I'd just love to ask, What is it that you've seen that you think has made Parvus successful from an investment perspective?

A I've worked with Eduardo nearly 19 years. First as part of the TCI platform and then directly with him in 2009. I would say the investment philosophy has not changed, but the process has changed. We've made a lot of mistakes and there's a lot of self reflection. So if you come to our offices, we have a wall of fame and shame. So you have all our awards and then we have the biggest mistakes we've made in black frames. So every day it's about remembering, listen, you're only as good as the last transaction you made. The second thing is we just have not compromised On what we do or change. A lot of our peers have gone from being European to being global. We've remained European. Number one. Number two, we had a value bias. The free cash flow is still what we look for. That hasn't changed. We haven't gone into buying quality names. We're still doing what we're doing. The third thing I will say to you is actually staying below the radar. There's a lot of people don't know us. We are ten billion. We have 65 clients, which is not a lot. But I meet people, and they're like, what? You've been around for 20 years? How come I don't know? We don't really go out there and market. This is not what we want to do. We want to have an amazing investor base, which we do, and just do what we do, and we don't talk to the street. We don't use street research. We just go out and do our things, and it…

AI assessment note: “The second thing is we just have not compromised On what we do or change.”

Q What are some of the things that you either avoid or you see other people do that gives you shivers down your spine?

A Oh my, Ted. I sometimes sit next to other IR people or peers of mine, and we'll be sitting with two or three investors, and they'll say, so are you going to invest? I want the earth to open up and swallow me. I would never, ever ask an investor, are you going to invest? It's just not what you do. And I have some of our investors who send me emails that other IR people have sent them. They've clearly said, I'm not interested. Seven emails later, they're still getting the information. It's just that continuous hounding. They don't have a conversation. They think adding people to their mailing list is going to get them in the door. I never add anyone to the mailing list unless they ask me. So number one is that. It's just maintaining the respect, the space and understanding that. Number two, there's certain questions you never ask. Are you going to invest with me? Do you like me? How do I compare? Did I do a good job? You don't ask those questions. You follow up more elegantly. If you want anything else, let me know. Thirdly, I think people in my position always forget investors know where we are. If they're interested, they'll come and find us when the time is right. The opportunity is there or something. Of course you can reach us and say, Hey, I'm in New York. Do you want to have a coffee? So I try and use that as a means to build a relationship with someone, understand where t…

AI assessment note: “they'll say, so are you going to invest? I want the earth to open up”

Q Incredibly, it's been five years since you came on the show, and we'll replay that one to give people a sense of your background and path, and I guess I'd love to start by asking you, what happened after that show came out?

A I never ever could have imagined or predicted what would happen. The first thing was just the volume of follow up, reach out, touching base with people I hadn't spoken to for 20 years. It was just insane. My emails did not go below 1000 for a year. People from New Zealand, Vietnam, Iceland, Russia, literally every continent reach out. It was just unbelievable. It was very, very humbling, Ted. I should really have realized, given your impact and how many people listen to the podcast, what might have happened, but I never, ever would have thought it would have happened to me, and it was just amazing. It was a really good way to pay forward, meet new people, reconnect with people, and just reflect, really. It was just the best thing.

AI assessment note: “The first thing was just the volume of follow up, reach out”

Q In that environment where you just know it's going to take longer, how are you able to add value to the people you're talking to so that they'll want to keep talking to you as you're waiting what could be a really long time?

A I think about it all the time. In COVID, I started saying bits of research. Clients were reaching out saying, hey, have you got any research on this? Have you got any research on that? And once for a few weeks, I'd send something out. Then it became once a week. It's now daily, and it's literally anything and everything that I think is interesting, I'll share. So I believe I'm trying to help them across their portfolio. These are not just investment pieces. They're pieces about culture, about team building, about structure, geopolitics, all sorts of things. So that's one way. The second thing is always connecting good people with good people. I just love doing that. So someone says, hey, I'm having real problems with my team. I can't incentivize them more. I can't get them to come into the office or I'm really struggling to understand if I should build my team by asset class or if I should make them generalists. I love that because I always get the opportunity to connect them to other smart people. And then thirdly, it's just connecting them to managers or ideas where they're investigating. Hey, I'm looking at Asia. I don't know if I should do country specific or I should do general things. Well, hey, look, I'll put you in touch with a few people who are allocators who I think are really smart, and then here's a few managers you should speak to and just get what they're thinkin…

AI assessment note: “So that's one way. The second thing is always connecting good people with good people.”

Q Are there any other lessons or answers you find yourself giving repeatedly to people who have reached out over the years?

A I always give people three pieces of advice, okay? So, number one, how are you different? You've been on the other side, Ted. You've seen this. Everyone thinks they're different, and I see the same things time and time again. A young man reached out to me yesterday, and he's clearly smart, got a great track record, and I just said to him, every single point you've listed there, it could be any fund in the world, and he went bright red, and I said, listen, you say you're different because you're fundamental bottom-up. I said, so is everyone else. You say, I'm aligned because I'm invested alongside. So is everyone else. I have long-term time horizon. So does everyone else. So you have to take a step back and really think about how you're different. Number two, and this is what Gets people. I'll say, can you tell me about the mistakes you've made and the lessons you've learned and people freak out and they'll either say, oh, when I was at Goldman Sachs, they cut the risk at the wrong time. I'm like, no, tell me about you because all of us have done things in our life which we'll never do again because we've learned don't run before you can walk. Think about things before you do them, whatever it may be. So don't buy highly levered companies or make sure you know the management before you invest in the stock. It's those things. And those ultimately shape your philosophy and your pr…

AI assessment note: “I always give people three pieces of advice, okay? So, number one”

Q devil's advocate with you a little bit, someone could look at that conflict and say, well, Raul, you're just serving yourself for the longterm. You're not serving our organization because yes, you have this opinion that this thing that happened and you should tell people that But that doesn't reflect well on us, and we think it's going to be resolved in a month anyway, so why bother sharing it?

A And that's fair, but the fact is relationships transcend organizations, ok? So if you have a relationship with an investor, now today I worked with investors since 1998, I've worked through six, seven, eight, nine different firms, but the fact is they always know what's going on, and any manager I work with knows that I'm always going to be honest, and if they can't handle it, then I'm not going to work with them. So that's something straight up at the beginning I will say to people, it's like, I'll tell people this is great, and it's a good idea for you to look at, but also if you do something wrong, I'm always going to tell people, and they're a bit shocked, but I'm like, that's why if I pick up the phone to these people, they listen, and they trust me. To me, that's what matters more than anything, because managers come and go, but those endowments, foundations, families, they're around forever, so it's a different mindset. So people don't think about that, and I think too many people sit there saying, I'm going to do X, Y, and Z, and all of a sudden, They realize actually when that manager closes down or they leave, whatever, they're sitting in this world where all these people, they've burnt all these relationships. They can't call those people again. Life, it's all relationships, all of this thing. It's not about money. It's about relationships, and everyone forgets that.

AI assessment note: “And that's fair, but the fact is relationships transcend organizations”

Q So let's roll forward through the financial crisis. What happens with your career?

A I have a tough time. And then I sort of think March, April time, 2009, what am I going to do longer term? I thought, well, this has been great, but I want to kind of do this choosing who I want to work with. Ultimately I worked for Chris and Chris chose who was on that platform. And so I sort of started thinking about it, but the first thing I needed to do was to step away from that. And think, what's the future? So I stepped away, and I was lucky enough at that time for Parvis guys to come to me and said, we still want to work with you. So it was continuity for me. It was great, and they were open to me working for other people as well, as long as there was no conflict. So that's really what I've done today, and I've, you know, I've actually worked with Parvis since 2005. First with Chris, and then separately from Chris since 2009. It's been great.

AI assessment note: “I stepped away, and I was lucky enough at that time for Parvis guys”

Q the challenges. On the one hand, Chris and TCI is just extraordinary track record of investing, which maybe it makes it easier. On the other, there are people who have said, well, he's not such a warm, fuzzy type of person. What value add do you play when the portfolio manager is perceived as just a savant who prints money for clients and everybody wants their way in the door?

A There is actually a process there of getting people on board. So there's a lot of admin to do. First and foremost, you have to go back and understand who your investors are, ok, how they think. Everything was there, but it'd grown so quickly. For example, there was no link between the underlying registered shareholders and the clients, ok. So you had client A, but they had XYZ holding Inc. So I had to spend a lot of time Matching all those out to know who had how much money with us. In some cases, it was obvious. That's the first thing. Second thing is actually processing and facilitating the meetings with Chris and the clients is a big thing, as well as all the other managers on the platform. Third thing is investors need to go through due diligence process, even though in those days, we were less willing to help as we are today about giving investors what they needed. But people also spent a lot of time trying to understand what is behind these numbers, how are these numbers being generated? I think the big question actually, the thing we had the biggest pushback on is Chris had a foundation, and a lot of people said, hey, I'm a foundation, I'm endowment, I don't really want to give money to a manager who's funding another foundation or endowment, or Chris is activist, and all these names, and it's headline risk for us, help me understand how I get around that. So there were …

AI assessment note: “There is actually a process there of getting people on board. So there's a lot”

Q And what did that mean in that context?

A It means it's not just a relationship about you investing in this fund or with this manager. It's understanding that what happens with that manager and that relationship has an impact on his responsibility for an endowment. So it can be not just that investment, but how it correlates to other investments. What's the liquidity profile of that into what he can pay out to other people, the access he has to the manager and the underlying holdings, all that sort of stuff. So it was a lot of things there which I didn't really Understand until he really explained it to me. And I was like, do you know what? I really get it now. So it made me sit in his mind and say, how can I help him do his job? And before that, it wasn't about that. It was like, right, what do I need to do to do my job? But it's not about that. It's about actually understanding what are the things that investors need to help them do their job. And if you understand that, then you can do your job better and you become more proactive. So over the years, when I do a report, I now include much more than I would have ever included, because I know these guys are going to ask me for this, and this, and this, and this, and you just keep adding it. So it reduces their need to keep coming back to you. Can I have this? Can I have this? You just standardize it, and everyone gets that information, and they pick out what they want…

AI assessment note: “It means it's not just a relationship about you investing in this fund”

Q What do you see as some of the biggest opportunities and challenges over the next couple of years?

A I think it's going to continue to get harder and harder because I think the markets are getting more and more myopic. People worry about being able to make money consistently. And you have the pods and the platforms who are huge and gigantic there. But if you work with fundamental managers like I do, those are two sides of the same coin. If a stock misses its earnings by .1% and it's down 20%, a fundamental manager will go and buy more of it. But a pod or a platform will short that stock. And so these two sides of the market are playing off against each other. And yes, it's great because that's what makes a market, but I think that makes it harder. The second part is this whole debate about passive versus active. How much should we bother trying to find active managers, particularly say in the U S where a lot of people are saying, I cannot make money unless I earn the big seven. The third thing is liquidity. What's going to happen, and I think you've very elegantly said it as well in one of your recent pieces, is as these private managers start to pay out I think a lot of that money will start going into public managers, not into private managers, like people think it will. People are starting to fall back in love with public market investing, but they have much more mature portfolios. It's going to be harder and harder to allocate to that space. Big picture connecting all the …

AI assessment note: “I think it's going to continue to get harder and harder because”

Q All non-profits have a need to raise capital. So where have you seen lessons that, from your experience, were applicable to helping these nonprofits raise money?

A I think the difference, the key difference between nonprofits and profits is the ethics side of things. So I've been asked to be involved in a number of non-for-profits, but when I do the digging, there's a lot of ethical governance issues. So I think that's the first thing that I'd say that separates the two. The second thing is, When you invest time with a non-for-profit and try to help them fundraise, you really need to find people who believe in that cause. But you have to try and find where there's a relatable story, ok? So if someone's had an illness, then it's easier to raise for that cause from someone who's had that illness, right? That has compassion for that. There's other causes like disability which are harder, because it's a minority group in society. People Have misconceptions of what it means to be disabled, how much government help they actually get, what they have access to, what they don't have access to. So each of them is really, really different, but it's much more about a personal approach. But I think it's trying to get people to have compassion and realize they're actually very lucky, and they should give to causes. So you're trying to approach it from both the cause point and the personal point. Whereas if you're fundraising for A manager like, well, here's an interesting idea that you want in your portfolio. It's black and white. It's much more black …

AI assessment note: “you really need to find people who believe in that cause”

Q and then we can talk about some of the affiliates. Clients wanted to invest. And you've talked a lot about the importance of understanding your clients, understanding their needs, but to do that as someone in the business development role, you need their time. And so how much of your ability to do that was predicated on being around funds, TT and then TCI, that people wanted to invest in?

A It's huge. So being with firms that people want to invest in obviously is a great thing, and it becomes about being a traffic cop and managing that traffic, right? Directing it the right way, telling it when to come in and when not to come in, which road to take on the rest of it. There's other times where you have to go out and raise, and sometimes You won't believe me, but there's situations that come up, and you're like, wow, this is really for me, and I'll give you a great example. I'm going to Asia, Chris calls me, I land in Hong Kong, calls me on a Thursday night, and says, I need eight hundred million by Monday. Ok, fine. So I go to sleep, I wake up Friday morning, I sit on the phone, and raise eight hundred million bucks, call him, and suddenly eight hundred million is coming on Monday, because who's going to make a big investment in Visa? So there's situations like that, that come up, and you're like, wow, this is not just about, Dealing with the traffic. It's actually going out and saying, right, actually, we need to really, really lay down here. Who's going to give us money? How are we going to structure that money? Is it going to be three year or five year? And who do you want to take it from? Because you're always conscious then of how much money people already have with you. Do you grow that? Or do you take new investors in this? There's lots of things to think ab…

AI assessment note: “It's huge. So being with firms that people want to invest in obviously is a great thing”

Q What are some of the worst horror stories you've had to deal with?

A How long have you got? I mean, it's, it's, there are so many. I can't even start, I can't even begin to tell you stories about people leaving that I know are leaving, but I can't say are leaving. The market finds out they're leaving before they've left, and all the rest of it. Investments in the portfolio that shouldn't have been in the portfolio. People claim they're not there. You know, I had one firm I worked with where the manager refused to put the top position in the portfolio. Just Forgot they existed, and just sort of talked about the rest of the portfolio, even though it was a big position, but that top name was something, it wasn't an equity position that they were investing, it was something else, and they shouldn't have invested that. There was one manager I was helping in Asia, who put his whole business at risk, and he had a 63% short position, which could have completely, luckily it worked for him, but it could have blown his whole business up, and his fund, and killed his investors.

AI assessment note: “one manager I was helping in Asia, who put his whole business at risk”

Q What's changed in your thought process over these last five years?

A It's such a good question there. So this is year 26 of me doing this. The first thing I will tell you is I'm not going to swear, but it is bloody hard. It's harder than I've ever, ever known it to be. So it requires much more patience. You have to do much more of the work for investors because investors are busy. Right now, they've got a lot of issues in their portfolios. A lot of them are dealing with governance issues, structural issues. They've got team issues, a lot of people working hybrid, so it's understanding that. They've got inflation, they've got China, they've got interest rates, they've got illiquidity, they're not getting any payouts. And if you're dealing with people who have had healthcare plans during COVID, they're getting hurt. Some of the endowments are not getting the overseas students they were getting, so income's down. So it's really just trying to be aware of what people are Thinking about, worried about, and all that sort of thing. So for me, it's being even more patient than I was before. Any investor that I've managed to build a relationship with and work with post COVID is taking between 18 months and seven years. Now that's an investment and I've aligned it to people and saying, if you want to build a very good friendship with someone, it takes time. So talk about you and me. We've known each other for 20 years. But since I came on the podcast, you…

AI assessment note: “So for me, it's being even more patient than I was before.”

Q And what'd you find when you went out? A lot of times there's a segregation in this business between the investment principles that the clients want to interact with, and then The business development team where the manager says, no, no, no, you just go raise me money without a plan or an agenda.

A I was at TT for seven years. I never was left on my own to go and raise money. I did everything apart from the final pitch. So the PMs did the final pitch, but I did all the client take on all the interaction with them in terms of what they wanted, sat to them, spoke to them, got to know them, took them out for drinks, the rest of it. But I wasn't let loose until 2005. Which we'll talk about, which someone gave me a chance, and so it's a huge, huge disparity between their thinking and my thinking, because I'm much more of a relationship person , so it's kind of like, well, I have to look after these people, so I want to know who they are, how they think, what do they want, whereas the other guys are like, well, how do we get this money in that we manage, so it's very, very different. I would say almost, they're the investment guys, but they were the marketing guys, and I worked in the marketing team, but I was much more a relationship guy, so it's a very different approach.

AI assessment note: “I never was left on my own to go and raise money.”

Q And how did you balance that when the investment guys are running the shop, they're your boss, they're putting pressure on you to raise money?

A They let me over time take care of things because the clients gave good feedback, and I was just patient and did things slowly and properly. I think they were always in a rush, and that's something that I learned over time, that actually do things slowly, don't be in a rush, because when you're in a rush, you can say the wrong things, things can come out the wrong way, and you can put pressure on people where you shouldn't be putting pressure on people. So it was almost about balancing what they were doing versus what I was doing. So they would go out, they'll say, right, these guys are coming back, they're coming in, they want this, they want that, blah, blah, blah. So fine, we'll get that done, but let's talk to them while we're doing it. So that kind of slows the process, rather than just being so reactive that people feel like, okay, we want to do this, but they're coming back too quickly. We need some space to think about it. Because when people are thinking about investing, they need to think about what they're doing, how it correlates to the rest of the portfolio. Is this really what we think it is? And really look at the quality of the returns, and it's a much bigger thing than that. Do we like these people? Can we work with them? Are they gonna be transparent? Are they gonna let us come to their offices? Are they gonna come and see us? So it's a bigger thing than just …

AI assessment note: “They let me over time take care of things because the clients gave good feedback”

Q So a situation like this is probably atypical in that there's a rapid degree of success that turned out. And raising money, even if you didn't know, how do you advise people that are struggling with the tension of making a business work economically versus trying to play the long game?

A In some cases, it's never going to work. And I'm quite honest with you about that and just say, listen, it's just not going to work. You just forget it. And there's other guys who are really good. There's another guy recently who just came out of a big shop He needed an anchor investor. I helped him get an endowment on the West Coast, give him money, but it's a long, slow process and understanding it's him. Investors don't think about what's their break even when they're starting, okay? Where are you spending that money? Why do you need 10 people? You don't need 10 people. This again goes back to the point about thinking about building your business plan. Think about your assets, your infrastructure, your people, and over time as they grow, what are you going to do with those? So I think people have a lot of misconceptions about what is the right thing to do. Anyone who leaves a big organization is a refugee, right? And when a refugee starts their life, they start with a lot less than they had before, ok? Whether it's financially, in terms of possessions and things. So the same way I think about these guys, like, well, you don't need that whole huge infrastructure and bureaucracy you had at your old place. You're leaving for a reason, ok? It's to do it your way and to do it simpler. So don't get bogged down in all the nonsense that goes with all of that. So I think people, It's…

AI assessment note: “It's fine to have big ambitions longer term, but start small and start simple.”

Q With that frame of mind of how you want to build a relationship instead of sell a product, how do you get away from, well, your job is day to day, come in and try to figure out how to grow a pool of capital?

A If you'd asked me that question 20 years ago, I would have said, Ted, I've just got to try and raise money. That's my job. But I think the beautiful thing about everyone that I work with or help with or I speak to who wants my input is really just helping them rethink The whole framework of doing this. I'm not saying my ways are right where there's loads of ways you can do it, but I think why I do things the way I do is was I care about the relationships. I care about the quality of the capital. So I know sometimes it's going to take me seven years to have a relationship with someone. And there's plenty of people that you've been, I both mutually know, and they always say to me, why do you never talk about your firms that you work? Because I just want to speak to you and understand what you're doing, what you're looking for. What's on your mind? And then if there's something that I'm working with or I found that's interesting, we can do that. I'll give you a great example. Your Tim Coe, Cathy Iberg was there. I've known Cathy my whole career. I met her in 1998, and she invested in two managers I was working with in 2013. And she jokingly said to me, Rahul, it only took 15 years. I said, Kathy, it doesn't matter. We carried on speaking. And there came a point, there were two managers, one I was working with, one I was helping, and you needed both those strategies at that time. A…

AI assessment note: “really just helping them rethink The whole framework of doing this.”

Q an awakening. If that's not how you would describe your investment management tech, request a demo at ridgeline.ai. And now back to the show. So when you get a call from an institution, a friend that said, hey, there's this new fund, can you talk to them? What advice do you give a new fund manager? So let's say it's not someone who's likely to launch with a billion plus.

A So I had such a call earlier this year from someone I really respect who emailed me and said, hey, I just met this guy. I can't tell if he's brilliant or naive. Can you meet him for me? I said, fine. At the same time, I got introduced to the guy by two prime brokers. I said, can you meet this guy? I met the guy. I put 45 minutes in my diary. I spent two and a half hours with him, and I think he's naive and brilliant, but he just, the passion he spoke with, he'd been thoughtful in every way about his structure, about his fees, how he's going to build a team out and everything. I spent two and a half hours with him, and then I've just helped him raise. He only took 300, but he raised 1.2 billion dollars.

AI assessment note: “I had such a call earlier this year from someone I really respect”

Q What types of firms have you worked with in addition to Parva's post-crisis?

A So I worked with a long-only manager in Asia. She's been investing in Asia longer than anyone, 25 years. We built a great business, and she retired earlier this year. We gave all the money back to investors. It was great, and it was nice doing it in a different way, doing it in a different regulatory authority, We're based in Singapore. We did only managed accounts. So it's great. And actually being there, beginning designing it all and doing everything was fantastic. Hadn't done that for a while. That was great. And then I've helped a number of guys pro bono on the requests of investors, prime brokers, all those people reach out to me. And there's a huge amount of talent out there. Huge, huge, huge. I feel quite excited actually, because for the first time in a very long time, there's a lot of good guys coming out. There's a lot of younger guys who've worked their way up an organization or been the number two for a long time, and people feel they're ready now to sort of go out there, so there's so much to do. But there's also a lot of the bad habits coming back. I can see that people are worried about short term. The market is so myopic, so people have FOMO big time. So if you go back to 19, 99, 2000, if you didn't own the tech stocks, you weren't going to perform. And it's the same thing today. Where people fear, if I don't own certain stocks, or certain sectors, even certain…

AI assessment note: “I worked with a long-only manager in Asia... helped a number of guys pro bono”

Q So how about somebody in your shoes where you've had some great success that allows you to be patient to meet with people? Maybe you're going to help them. At what point in time do you start navigating? Okay. I want to get compensated for this, or I'm just taking lots of meetings and I'm happy to share my wisdom because I'm a teacher and that's what you are.

A Well, the regulations stopped me from getting compensated. So, but I think, look, the thing that everyone forgets about it, if people are successful, it's good for our industry. Okay. I think everyone believes that, but so many people are so focused on themselves and it's about the greater good, right? So when I see bad news about hedge funds or investments in the newspaper, I think it's a good thing. Why do I think it's a good thing? Because the people who really understand it won't run away from it, but the people who don't, they run away from it. And the kinds of headlines that you see, oh, people are scared about volatility, they're scared about lockups, they're not doing concentrated managers, they're not doing this, not doing that. If you really dig into the headlines about who's saying that, it's not the great and the good investors, it's not the asset owners, ok, it's the asset allocators, because they're trying to protect themselves. And so I think I really, really am conscious when people run away from this stuff is actually quite often the best time to invest. I was just with one of, one of the family officers that I work with in New York, and he was telling me they have money with a manager they've been with since the beginning. For 15 years, he'd annualized 15%. But he said his investors only received nine percent annualized return. I said, well, how's that? He sai…

AI assessment note: “Well, the regulations stopped me from getting compensated. So, but I think, look,”