The Exchanges

Q working for Google as a head of marketing in the middle East in And then, um, the Egyptian regime killed a man, Khaled Said, and you created a Facebook page. We are all Khaled Said. So can you take, which eventually ended up leaving, leading to the overthrow of the regime. So can you take us back to that moment? What were you feeling then? And what were you thinking?

A Well, it's, um, uh, it was basically, uh, a moment of frustration because Uh, I'm someone who was born in 1980, and since I was, uh, one year old, uh, since I was, like, coming to life, there was only one, um, president that runs the country, and the ruling party was, um, kind of getting old in their positions of power. It's been, like, 30 years at the time, uh, and unfortunately, uh, the way, uh, the country runs, um, uh, has not been ideal in, in the perspective of a lot of people, especially young people, Uh, who, uh, were kind of exposed to the global phenomena, who got together on the internet, who, so, uh, when, when the event of Khaled Saeed death happened, and the response that came from the government about his case, Um, uh, was, was just basically, um, a denial and, uh, and saying that, no, he did not die from being, uh, beaten up by police officers. He just swallowed, um, uh, some drugs and, uh, and that's what basically caused him to die. Uh, when that happened, I started the page and my idea at the time was not to start any kind of, um, massive unrest or any kind of massive revolutions or anything. It was just as simple as, Uh, I am, I know how to communicate. I learned how to communicate, have a background in engineering and as well as a master in business administration, a lot of experience in the street. And, uh, it must be that people like me should be doing so…

AI assessment note: “it was basically, uh, a moment of frustration because”

Q a little bit of optimism and realism versus a sense of resignation, which we see too often. So It's a nice note to, to bring our conversation, um, to a close on. I do want, before we go, I want to hear more about, um, just quickly, what are you up to now and what's next for you? You live in Sanford, you live in the Bay area now too.

A So I live in California and I haven't been working for three years and a half right now. Um, uh, mostly working on myself and trying, I, I went through a very hard depression, um, because of, uh, you know, all the events that I've, uh, experienced in Egypt and then leaving the country. I haven't visited back home for seven years now. Um, I recently got divorced, so I'm kind of like, uh, trying to, uh, to Stabilize my, my life, if you, uh, if, uh, if you would say, uh, and bring it into a better place. And as I'm doing that, uh, I, uh, I'm enjoying it, and I learned to be very honest with everyone. You know, I kind of like, if someone is hiring me for a job, I, I, I don't mind telling them about my depression, and I actually would appreciate if they don't hire me.

AI assessment note: “mostly working on myself and trying, I, I went through a very hard depression”

Q And what's the, what's the significant of the 25th?

A The significance of the 25th was the first day the protests started. So when he arrived, he arrived at the, at the time where the government was kind of like looking around what's happening. Why, where are all these people coming from and who drives them and who's motivating them. And they were kind of, and it was a Facebook page. Yeah. They were kind of bought into a big conspiracy about the, whatever that's happening cannot be just, uh, um, Um, coincidence. It must be a series of events or mass organized and orchestrated by foreign powers. Um, and they were trying to figure that out. So they kind of followed him and I just had dinner with him on 27th, uh, because 28th was going to be one of the days where we don't know what's going to happen next. So I just wanted to see him before I just disappear from the scene. So I agreed with him to meet him for a hookah. I'll smoke hookah and dinner in one of the cafes. And as soon as I finished Uh, my dinner with him, um, uh, as I was walking, uh, in, in the dark street, it was like around midnight, and you know, just four people, uh, surround me with, they have machine guns and stuff, and they push me on the ground, they hit me, and then, you know, they, um, uh, basically, uh, handcuff me, uh, put a, uh, head, like something to cover my eyes, uh, an eye cover, so that I can't see what's going on. It's like a movie scene, you know. I k…

AI assessment note: “The significance of the 25th was the first day the protests started.”

Q Right. What was it like being detained for those 11 days?

A Um, it was a very hard experience because, um, on one hand, you don't know when are you gonna get out. You don't know what's going on. Uh, like I was completely disconnected and isolated from the scene. Uh, just imagine me in a very small, tiny room. Um, uh, that's not even well painted. It has like all these bad things that I'm smelling and I kept coughing for hours because of it. And I'm blindfolded and handcuffed even when I go to, uh, to the bathroom. Yeah, the whole time. Um, and, uh, it was such a tough experience. I have to say, um, uh, that I, um, probably still, uh, still trying to, um, uh, kind of pass in a, in a, in the most positive way, but Uh, there are certain things in my head, you know, I, before I leave, I just hugged everybody. Uh, they allowed me to see some of their faces, which is also uncommon. Like you have to, they, they don't unfold you until you're out because they don't want you to recognize any of the faces of those who either interrogated you or beating you up or whatever that is. Uh, I, I don't know if I'm, uh, if I'm, uh, I guess like many years past, no problem. You know, uh, a couple of the officers actually liked me and they wanted me to see everybody. And I saw everybody in Including, um, uh, those who, uh, were beating me up, and I hugged them, and I told them inside, in front of them, that I wish them the best. And I actually wish it. Uh, a…

AI assessment note: “it was a very hard experience because, um, on one hand, you don't know”

Q Did they eavesdrop with your conversation with Jared? Is that what happened?

A No, no, no. They were, they were following him. They were finding who is everyone who is he meeting. And they found me to be a very, like, they have to arrest me. They have to know what's my story, why I meet this guy, what's happening. And they, that was part of the investigation. The big part of it was, um, asking me about my connections with Google, my connections with the CIA. I mean, I had no connections with the CIA. My connect, you know, what, what is driving me? They just can't understand. Oh, they couldn't understand at the time my motivations for doing what I'm doing. They thought it must be that I'm just, uh, uh, recruited and paid to believe in the certain way, uh, I believe in to do whatever, uh, under foreign agents. But it was from the heart. Yeah, and I kind of tried to argue with them back and forth using logic and emotions that, uh, this is, this is not what, it's, it's not what you think, and I, I do think that, uh, they did, uh, like at least the ones I, I talked to, um, uh, they did have a different, uh, way of treating me as we go, which gives me a bit of a signal. I don't, I don't necessarily, security people don't give you the real impression. Uh, they're trained to do so. They don't give you the real, they don't need to. Uh, they always, they actually prefer that you don't know what you think of them. Uh, so, um, in that sense, I, I kind of, I kind of f…

AI assessment note: “No, no, no. They were, they were following him.”

Q were spray painting things, Facebook on the walls in Cairo after the revolution. So Do you have this sort of like, you know, push and pull where you're like, well, I'm glad that social media was available for that. But I'm also nervous about what it's developed into or like, when you were, you know, pushing those levers back in 2011, did you have a feeling where things might go?

A It was not a feeling where things might go, but it was kind of a question in my head. Like I can see in this tool so much power that it can be abused by anyone. Like, yeah, I mean, I was personally a victim of the, of, uh, of the, I mean, not victim, but I was targeted by the tool, uh, uh, by, you know, tons and tons. There was like a page that has like over a million people and they would drive things. I never said, they say, well, my name is saying this, such and such, and they put it as, And I reported on your page and not on my page, not, not on their page. They just, yeah, they claim that I made a statement and the statement is ridiculous and horrible and extreme. Uh, but no one's checks who, who said what, and at the time I even, uh, sent, sent a message to Facebook and they said, we can't remove it. You know, we're not going to be in the, you know, they have to kind of, yeah, they can't judge that if I said it or not. Um, uh, so, uh, as I was, as I was trying to say, like my relationship, I got, I got targeted by the same tools and I have seen how at the end of the day, being excited about a tool is no longer something I do. It's naive. Uh, being excited about a tool that continuously develop, uh, is even more naive and being excited about a tool that, uh, that, uh, that evolves, uh, around, um, uh, financial principles, uh, controlled by a bunch of investors, uh, trying…

AI assessment note: “It was not a feeling where things might go, but it was kind of a question”

Q this? Because when an individual, and I know it was a group, but you know, they eventually found you, they find the individuals that are, you know, helping to spark it when an individual goes against a government. That's a bold thing to do. So I'm curious what, what, um, if you even made a calculation and what calculation went through your head when you decided to make this happen?

A Yeah, I think, um, uh, it's a combination of, um, uh, recklessness and, um, uh, basically immaturity, uh, combined with, uh, lack of knowledge, uh, as well as a lot of bravery and, uh, drive to feel something like in, uh, throughout my career, uh, like the, uh, You know, I remember the last few months at Google, I was not really happy at all. Like, I just felt something is going on wrong. You know, I, I don't, I did not come to life, uh, to live a boxed life in a way like, you know, I just operate out of my own resources and we are here to just live life, whatever that is. I feel like there is something, uh, uh, I always feel that, that there is something stronger about the bonds between people. And, uh, there has to be a price to try and bring those bonds together. Uh, so some people have to stand up and, and, and pay that price. Uh, my naivety protects me somehow because, you know, if, uh, if one sometimes really understand the consequences of their actions, like, of course, I, while I was doing what I was doing, I thought there was a lot of, uh, security risks on myself. Uh, and I thought I, I might be arrested, but at the same time, I always reminded myself, even inside the prison, um, you know, does it really matter how, how long do you live or what kind of work do you do, uh, during your life? And, and of course, that question of mattering, uh, is important to, uh, um, yo…

AI assessment note: “it's a combination of, um, uh, recklessness and, um, uh, basically immaturity”

Q Do you think they'll live? I mean, do you think, so do you think they've become too defensive when it comes to criticism to start rethinking the design and just a secondary part of that? What would you change with the design? I mean, if we're talking about a building a product that more That better reflects the good parts of humanity. How might you do it?

A So, Great two questions. The first question I really don't know, um, because I'm not inside the companies. Uh, so my view is super limited to the outside perspective. So, uh, I'm not comfortable making a judgment about, uh, about their internal efforts. Um, uh, yet I, I'm seeing from the outside, uh, like I, I did not see any, um, evolving concept that's, uh, that came out of Facebook that is changing the nature of dialogue within the platform. It hasn't happened. Um, so, uh, do I think that a solution like that exists or, uh, or possible? Uh, I believe, um, uh, You know, I'm sure the people there have the experience of understanding what kind of problems and how to deal with them. So I believe that, yeah, you can come up with, uh, practical solutions. And by the way, people think of, uh, solutions in, in, in a certain big way. I, I think Clubhouse, for example, the, the current version of it, not necessarily the future ones, um, the way it is designed doesn't make you pay attention all the time to how audience are engaging with what you're saying. So for example, Uh, on one hand, uh, that kind of drops engagement in a way, because of course, if everybody's clapping and we count the number of claps and people know how many are clapping to this and how many are clapping to that and all that kind of stuff, uh, it's gonna all be exciting and fun. Uh, but guess what? The game is go…

AI assessment note: “The first question I really don't know... I think Clubhouse, for example”