Jun 4, 2025 · 40m · american-optimist
How 200MPH Flying Cars are about to Change the World · Joe Lonsdale
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In this episode of American Optimist, host Joe Lonsdale interviews Joby Aviation founder and CEO JoeBen Bevirt about the technological, regulatory, and industrial breakthroughs making commercial electric vertical takeoff and landing (eVTOL) air taxis a reality. Together, they discuss how multi-rotor noise reduction, battery density advancements, Toyota manufacturing partnerships, and 3D vertiport networks will fundamentally transform urban transport and real estate.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Joe holds 28.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Joe as informed peer 3.6 Guest teaching 3.4 Guest disagreement 0.1 Joe pushing back 0.3
speaking balance: gold is Joe, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 8:01 Bevirt rejects host's hydrogen explosion premise
Bevirt refutes Lonsdale's premise about the Hindenburg disaster, clarifying that the fabric envelope burned rather than the hydrogen gas exploding.
Hardest push from Joe ▶ 17:41 Host presses on regulatory delaysLonsdale presses Bevirt to clarify whether the previous administration caused unreasonable roadblocks, leading Bevirt to disclose the 2022 regulatory framework shift that caused delays.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 8:01 Bevirt schools host on Hindenburg chemistry and physicsBevirt corrects the widespread misconception repeated by the host that hydrogen gas exploded in the Hindenburg, explaining the role of the flammable envelope material and rapid hydrogen convection.
Joe holds their own ▶ 25:39 Host draws structural comparison to Chinese biotech arbitrageLonsdale demonstrates deep domain insight by mapping the slow regulatory approval problem in aviation to the pharmaceutical industry where Chinese firms exploit FDA delays.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Joe as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Joe pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| American Optimist Title Sequence | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Lonsdale introduces Bevirt and Joby Aviation, establishing his role as an early investor and referencing Peter Thiel's 2011 flying cars quote. Bevirt introduces the core aircraft specifications while Lonsdale notes the double redundancy engineering. | |
| JoeBen's Origins and Childhood Inspiration | 3 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Bevirt reflects on his upbringing and engineering background at Davis and Stanford. Bevirt explains how battery specific energy density evolved from 40-50 Wh/kg in the 1990s to over 300 Wh/kg today, schooling Lonsdale on why doubling battery density can triple flight range due to fixed contingency reserves. | |
| Hydrogen-Electric Propulsion and Extended Flight Range | 2 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Bevirt details the 500-mile hydrogen-electric test flight and points out hydrogen's specific energy advantage. When Lonsdale raises the cultural stigma of the Hindenburg explosion, Bevirt corrects him by explaining that the fabric envelope burned rather than the hydrogen gas exploding. | |
| Scaling Manufacturing and Toyota Partnership | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Bevirt draws historical parallels between modern eVTOL adoption and automotive manufacturing in the 1890s. He details Toyota's role in helping Joby transition from bespoke manufacturing to high-volume assembly lines. | |
| US Manufacturing Expansion and Workforce Growth | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | The conversation covers Joby's US manufacturing expansion in Marina and Ohio, followed by upcoming hot-weather testing in Dubai. Bevirt explains the aerodynamic and cooling penalties imposed by extreme heat on electric propulsion systems. | |
| Navigating FAA Certification Stages | 2 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Bevirt describes the multi-year FAA certification pathway. He breaks down the five distinct stages of certification, explaining how Stage 4 outlines testing criteria while Stage 5 awards credit upon FAA sign-off of submitted test reports. | |
| Vertiport Networks and Airspace Integration | 4 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Bevirt explains vertiport network geometry and airspace integration. Lonsdale probes whether regulatory shifts were unreasonable, prompting Bevirt to detail a 2022 FAA regulatory framework change that delayed progress. | |
| International Expansion and The Saudi Arabia Deal | 6 | 1 | 0 | 1 | Bevirt discusses Joby's billion-dollar partnership with Abdul Latif Jameel in Saudi Arabia. Lonsdale displays strong domain and insider awareness regarding Joby's cap table, addressing politically motivated attacks linked to Reid Hoffman and arguing against tribalism in technological development. | |
| Flight Testing Milestones and Autonomy Stack | 3 | 4 | 0 | 1 | Bevirt explains fly-by-wire systems and autonomous flight architecture. When Lonsdale asks if autonomous flight is against current law, Bevirt clarifies that pilotless operations are being developed in parallel under emerging DOT/FAA regulatory frameworks while highlighting China's rapid low-altitude economy rollouts. | |
| Global Aerospace Competition and Regulatory Agility | 6 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Lonsdale draws a direct analogy to the biotech sector, where slow FDA timelines enable Chinese competitors to replicate American drug targets and sell them back. Bevirt agrees, reinforcing the need for fast-track FAA rules for lighter aircraft classes. | |
| Acoustic Engineering and Low-Noise Flight | 4 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Lonsdale prompts Bevirt on acoustic engineering, referencing rotor physics power laws. Bevirt explains how Joby minimizes noise by reducing propeller tip speeds, shaping blade airfoils, and varying blade spacing to disperse sound harmonics. | |
| Vertical Integration and SpaceX Model | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Bevirt outlines Joby's SpaceX-style vertical integration across flight computers, motors, and batteries. He also details the acquisition of Uber Elevate and how the consumer app seamlessly chains ground rides to vertiport flights. | |
| Defense Applications and Autonomous Logistics | 5 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Lonsdale references Palantir and SpaceX paving the way for defense procurement. Bevirt details Joby's defense collaborations with DIU and AFWERX along with the X-wing acquisition for autonomous logistics. | |
| Future City Building and AI Acceleration | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | The conversation closes with an optimistic view on urban design, future master-planned cities, and AI acceleration in physical manufacturing and aerospace. |
Statements from this episode (35)
Bevirt: Joby flight tests prove in-flight system failures are transparent to pilots
“In fact, we, we've got two aircraft down at Edwards Air Force Base, and with those aircraft, we've been able to demonstrate the incredible robustness, and we've intentionally shut off lots of different systems on the aircraft, and demonstrated in flight that p…”
Bevirt: Battery density reached 300 Wh/kg with 1,000 Wh/kg prototypes coming
“So at that point in time, we were 40 to 50 watt hours a kilogram. Now we're more than 300 watt hours a kilogram, and there's cells in the lab that are up to 500 watt hours a kilogram, and prototypes coming that are over a thousand watt hours.”
Bevirt: Doubling battery density roughly triples eVTOL flight range
“Well, it's even more than that because you hold a lot of the energy and reserve for contingencies. You don't need to increase the amount of reserve that you hold. And so if you double the energy in the battery, you're actually probably getting three times the …”
Bevirt: Joby Aviation will launch routes up to 100 miles
“So, so it's we'll be launching on routes of up to a hundred miles.”
Bevirt: Joby Aviation demonstrated a 500-mile hydrogen-electric flight in summer 2024
“And then and then last summer we demonstrated a 500 mile flight with the hydrogen electric aircraft.”
Bevirt: Hydrogen has 100 times higher specific energy than modern batteries
“Hydrogen is a hundred times higher specific energy than today's batteries is three times higher specific energy than jet fuel.”
Bevirt: The Hindenburg's hydrogen did not explode; its fabric envelope burned
“Well, so the interesting thing about the Hindenburg, it was actually the envelope. It was the fabric that covered it, that burned. And the hydrogen is so light that it convex incredibly rapidly. So it's actually not, it didn't actually explode the hydrogen. No…”
Bevirt: Joby targets launch pricing comparable to an Uber Black ride
“So as we launched the service, we want this to be comparable in place to taking an Uber black. And then as we drive that manufacturing scale and get to Hundreds and then thousands and then tens of thousands of aircraft per year and really, you know, leveraging…”
Bevirt: Joby Aviation can build about one aircraft per month
“Today we have capacity to build about one a month and we're ramping that as quick as possible.”
Bevirt: Joby is doubling its Marina manufacturing footprint this month
“We've got doubling our footprint and manufacturing footprint in Marina, California, that plant plants coming online this month.”
Bevirt: Joby shipped its first aircraft to Dubai for hot-weather testing
“So we've shipped the first aircraft off to Dubai. We're going to have it there doing hot weather testing this summer.”
Bevirt: Joby was the first company to complete FAA certification stages 1-3
“So we were the first company to achieve stage Complete the stage one of the certification basis. The first complete stage two, first complete stage three, and now not only Joby, but the FAA is making record progress on stage four.”
Bevirt: Vertiport networks scale exponentially unlike linear ground transportation infrastructure
“The thing that's exciting about these kinds of aircraft is compared to ground-based transportation, whether that's rail or cars on the road, those are linear. And so if you want to you know, get more capacity, you need more lanes with this, you can go, you bui…”
Bevirt: The federal administration is expanding air traffic control for eVTOLs
“Yeah, it's, we fit into the airspace just like every other aircraft does, but it's phenomenal that this administration is, is leaning in and really driving forward on revitalizing the air traffic control and expanding the capacity of our air traffic control sy…”
Bevirt: Joby finished reworking certification steps after 2022 FAA rule changes
“We had our path agreed to with the FA and that made it so that we needed to go back and relook at a number of pieces. And the good news is that all of that work is behind us.”
Bevirt: Joby would have finished certification faster without FAA framework shifts
“We would have gotten to the finish line a lot faster if that curve ball hadn't come along.”
Lonsdale: Joby Aviation will launch operations in Dubai within a year
“I think we're going to be launching in Dubai with Joby in the coming year.”
Bevirt: Joby secured an initial $1B tranche for Saudi Arabian commercialization
“LJ is really our dream partner as we look to explore the opportunities in, in Saudi, and couldn't be more pleased with this initial tranche of a billion dollars for the commercialization in in Saudi.”
Lonsdale: Joby Aviation will be the first eVTOL company to deploy
“And so I think you guys, like you said, you're first through, you're going to be the first to deploy.”
Lonsdale: I helped lead Joby Aviation's first institutional funding round
“I'm obviously, I think I helped lead the first round, you know, when you guys raise institutional capital with a couple other friends.”
Lonsdale: Competitors are weaponizing Reid Hoffman's politics against Joby
“One fund that put a billion dollars in is my friend. Michael Thompson, who he, you know, I feel like I'm friends with both sides, but I'm kind of on the moderate right, I'm on the right, and Michael is on the right, and his partner Reid Hoffman's on the left, …”
Bevirt: Joby operates over five aircraft and has flown thousands of flights
“We've got a record number of aircraft flying you know, now more than five aircraft. We have flying thousands of flights.”
Bevirt: China certified eVTOL aircraft and ordered hundreds for its economy
“You see countries like China, where the CAC, which is the Chinese equivalent of the FAA, is very forward-leaning, and they're already have companies in this sector that are certified, and then you have the Chinese government, which is buying hundreds of these …”
Bevirt: Dozens of companies are building aircraft almost identical to Joby's
“There's now dozens of companies that are building aircraft that look almost identical to ours.”
Lonsdale: Slow FDA review enables China to commercialize US biotech IP first
“We'll start something here that's based on a new breakthrough, a really important new target, and because the FDA is so slow, because it takes you a decade, and China only takes four or five years, they'll literally start something a few years after taking all…”
Bevirt: Joby aircraft hover about 100 times quieter than conventional helicopters
“Yeah, it's about a hundred times quieter than a helicopter and that's in hover.”
Bevirt: Joby varies propeller blade spacing to eliminate tonal harmonic pulsing
“We also do this interesting thing where we vary the spacing of the propeller blades, so instead of having a consistent harmonic, like, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, it spreads them out, and it spreads the noise out, and so that gives it that shhh sound instead of t…”
Bevirt: Joby Aviation vertically integrates flight computers, motors, and batteries
“So we we've chosen as a company to be incredibly vertically integrated. So we want to make the best flight computers. We want to make the best air data computers. We want to make the best motors. We want to make the best battery packs. We want to make the best…”
Bevirt: The Uber app will seamlessly stitch ground rides with Joby flights
“We have the partnership where, where there are demand funnel and where You know, when you pull up the Uber app and you say you want to go to, you know, you're in New York, you want to go to JFK, that it'll seamlessly stitch a, an Uber trip to the VertiPort and…”
Bevirt: Joby acquired Uber Elevate to power backend servers and app
“We acquired the Uber Elevate team from Uber, and that is the foundation of all the servers and the algorithms that run on the back end based on Uber's best in class architecture, and then also the app.”
Bevirt: Joby began working with the DoD and DIU in 2016
“We started working with the DOD back in 2016 with DIU and that laid this incredible foundation for us with the DOD and it was you know, that, that expanded with the work with AFWERX.”
Bevirt: Joby acquired autonomous flight developer X-wing for defense applications
“We acquired a team called X-wing, which is one of the leaders in aircraft autonomy, and they're doing fantastic work on autonomous logistics and other autonomy applications for the duty and rebel aircraft, apparently.”
Bevirt: Joby Aviation successfully flew a full-scale aircraft prototype in 2017
“When we flew the full scale in, in 2017 and we were able to show both to ourselves and everyone else that we were, that we could build an aircraft with That was incredibly quiet, that had redundancy, that had unprecedented performance.”