Jul 27, 2021 · 39m · american-optimist
Stephen Harper: Rejecting Wokeness, Addressing China, and Defending Western Values · Joe Lonsdale
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In this episode of American Optimist, host Joe Lonsdale interviews former Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper on the perils of post-pandemic fiscal overspending, the geopolitical threat posed by China, and the importance of defending Western democratic values against internal illiberalism.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Joe holds 17.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Joe as informed peer 4.8 Guest teaching 5.8 Guest disagreement 1.3 Joe pushing back 1.1
speaking balance: gold is Joe, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 21:10 Dismissing claims that Marxism was distorted into totalitarianism
Harper firmly rejects the mainstream narrative that totalitarianism was a Soviet distortion of Marxism, arguing forcefully that total ideological intolerance was baked into Marx's original texts.
Hardest push from Joe ▶ 12:58 Challenging invasion urgency with Sun Tzu principleJoe counters the immediate threat narrative regarding Taiwan by citing Sun Tzu's doctrine on letting broken adversaries make mistakes undisturbed.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 29:45 Contrasting parliamentary authority with US presidential gridlockHarper recounts educating President Obama on constitutional power structures, demonstrating why a parliamentary minority prime minister wields more governing leverage than a president with supermajorities.
Joe holds their own ▶ 10:05 Detailing $1B private domestic biomanufacturing deploymentJoe establishes his direct operational authority by explaining his firm's billion-dollar investments to reshore critical biomanufacturing supply chains away from foreign dependencies.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Joe as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Joe pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Post-Pandemic Economic Recovery and Fiscal Overkill | 6 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Joe demonstrates solid economic familiarity by citing the record 9.3 million open US jobs and framing stimulus debates around MMT and Keynesianism. Harper builds on this by contrasting 2008 stimulus with 2020 income-replacement spending and forecasting inevitable interest rate pressure. | |
| Evaluating COVID-19 Pandemic Responses in Canada and China | 4 | 6 | 1 | 1 | Harper educates the host on the hidden long-term vulnerabilities of China's zero-COVID policy and contrasts it with US recovery. Joe guides the inquiry around Canadian federal vaccine rollout missteps. | |
| Boosting Canadian Innovation and Technological Ecosystems | 6 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Joe displays domain authority by highlighting his venture firm's billion-dollar domestic biomanufacturing investments and recruitment from Waterloo. Harper elaborates on strategic supply chain redundancy versus full onshoring. | |
| Geopolitical Threats from China, Taiwan's Future, and Multilateral Strategy | 5 | 6 | 2 | 2 | Joe introduces a Sun Tzu strategic theory suggesting China will hold off on invading Taiwan. Harper provides an expert reframe based on Beijing's disregard for international commitments in Hong Kong and urges allied economic solidarity. | |
| Rejecting Wokeness and Defending Western Foundational Principles | 4 | 6 | 2 | 1 | Harper delivers an extended critique of woke ideology as cultural nihilism, highlighting the paradox of record immigration into supposedly oppressive Western countries. Joe provides supportive prompts on foundational values. | |
| The Roots of Modern Leftist Illiberalism and Ideological Extremism | 5 | 7 | 2 | 1 | Harper takes Joe on an ideological deep dive into Marx, Rousseau, and totalitarianism, explaining why democratic pluralism self-corrects while authoritarian regimes double down on errors. Joe contributes perspectives on Singapore and Lee Kuan Yew. | |
| Entrepreneurial Culture, National Dynamism, and Political Structure | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Harper credits Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms with unleashing latent Chinese entrepreneurial energy rather than validating state authoritarianism. Joe reinforces the role of creative destruction in North American dynamism. | |
| Political Polarization, Systemic Governance, and Fiscal Responsibility | 4 | 7 | 1 | 1 | Harper delivers a masterclass on governance systems, explaining how parliamentary discipline grants prime ministers more legislative leverage than US presidents, and warns of historical sovereign debt collapses. Joe listens and probes on inflation and currency hedging. | |
| Middle East Geopolitics, The Abraham Accords, and Support for Israel | 5 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Joe and Harper find deep consensus on Middle East diplomacy, sharing personal business experiences in the UAE and Israel after the Abraham Accords and discussing the shared strategic imperative to confront common regional threats. |
Statements from this episode (22)
Harper: Canada's 2020 deficit exceeded his entire final federal budget
“In Canada, and you know, we thought I had run a large deficit back in, in, in in Canada last year, the fiscal year just completed, the deficit of the federal government will be 30% higher than my entire last budget.”
Harper: Post-pandemic inflation will force central banks to hike interest rates
“Now you're getting consumer inflation, and what happens, Joe, I mean, let's say we've been through this movie before, what happens is, at some point, this requires interest rate hikes. And as soon as you have interest rate hikes, you have impacts on investment…”
Harper: China relies on social control due to low natural immunity
“The Chinese population is now one of the least naturally immunized through infections in the world, and one of the least effectively vaccinated populations in the world, and actually now the extraordinary level of social and economic control they've had to imp…”
Harper: Canada's slow vaccine rollout reflects Trudeau government's poor execution
“All I'll say is when we were in government, we never had any trouble, problem making sure we had vaccinations, vaccines well in advance and getting them distributed. So it's just a matter of competent execution.”
Harper: Canada's immigration rules made importing tech talent easier than US
“A special advantage we had in Canada through all that period was our immigration policies, especially our far easier ability in the United States to bring in skilled technical people.”
Harper: Supply chain security requires redundancy, not domestic monopolies
“I don't think it's necessary in the government's interest to create, even within the country, a monopoly supply chain. You still want redundancy and you still want options. But let's make sure those options are certainly not as a minimum exclusively in countri…”
Harper: China flagrantly violated international treaty obligations over Hong Kong autonomy
“Under international treaty and law, China had an obligation to treat Hong Kong as an autonomous region with a completely different system of government, and they've flagrantly violated that commitment.”
Harper: Before Trump, no Western country agreed China was a threat
“Prior to President Trump, there was not an agreed There was not an agreed posture in any Western country that China was actually a long-term threat. Now, it happened to be my view, but it was, I can tell you, it was not really shared by very many people.”
Harper: The modern left is nihilistic and aims to rip everything down
“The modern left you know, well called Marxist often is, is, is not really socialist. It's nihilist. It's ethics are entirely nihilist. And it's all about ripping everything down.”
Harper: Woke university ideology cannot serve as a governing philosophy
“The adolescent egos of the woke university crowd is not an alternative governing philosophy for any society.”
Harper: Totalitarianism is rooted in original Marxism, not subsequent distortions
“Anyone who says that, you know, Marxism was distorted into totalitarianism by the Soviets or the Chinese, whoever, is missing, you know, is missing the whole, you read Original Marxism. The totalitarianism is at its root.”
Harper: Authoritarians double down on mistakes to protect their claim to infallibility
“Authoritarians must double down because the claim to an author, authoritarian's claim to power is that he is specially gifted and always right. Soon as the authoritarian says, oh, that was a real screw up. That's kind of the end of his, of, you know, then some…”
Harper: China recently made better decisions than Western democracies
“Right now, it is, I don't think it's, whether it's economics or the virus or anything, I don't think you have to be a really deep political analyst to say that, generally speaking, the Chinas Have been making better decisions in the last couple of years than d…”
Lonsdale: China will not tolerate creative destruction required for future innovation
“I tend to think that China is not going to allow enough creative destruction that will be required by the innovation coming in the next 10 or 20 years, and that maybe is an optimistic thing that we will hopefully be able to be better to deal with in North Amer…”
Harper: China is the most entrepreneurial nation in the world after America
“Deng Xiaoping did sufficient reform to unleash the naturally entrepreneurial nature of the Chinese nation. Chinese nation after the Amer, after Americans is the most entrepreneurial culture in the world.”
Harper: Canada's political culture is far less polarized than America's
“Canada's political culture then and now is far less polarized than in the United States, and the underlying polarization of your political culture, in my view, is a serious problem.”
Harper: US parties prioritize maximizing spending or minimizing taxes over deficits
“The only priority If I'm be blunt here, the only priority of the Democratic Party has been to maximize government spending regardless of how it is financed. And the only policy of the Republican Party has been to minimize taxation regardless of levels of spend…”
Harper: I increasingly hold precious metals in my personal accounts
“In my personal accounts, I, look, I still hold US dollars because the options aren't great, but I do increasingly hold precious metals as well.”
Harper: US borrowing trillions at zero percent will end quickly
“The people believe the United States can continue to borrow countless trillions of dollars at zero percent. Not only do I believe that's not true, I believe that's actually coming to an end much quicker than people think.”
Harper: Iran's theocratic regime is one of world's most malevolent threats
“I think one of the biggest threats we face in the world besides, you know, the different Chinese model, a much more malevolent threat is the theocratic nuclear weapons seeking regime in Iran.”
Harper: Failing to stand with Israel jeopardizes Western long-term interests
“If we are not prepared to stand on the front lines with Israel against those fundamental threats to free and democratic societies, then we are jeopardizing our own long-term interests.”
Harper: MMT falsely assumes wealth can exist without production or trade-offs
“The fundamental principle of economic science is that human desires and wants always outnumber available resources, and you have to make choices. They're trying to convince everybody you don't have to make choices. You can have wealth, go to work or not work w…”