The Exchanges

Q topic, like, are there any, I guess, any wisdom from your, like, six years of, of doing this and building this and seeing what works, what doesn't work, how much harder it really is to get traction, to get people to care about something? That you would almost, like, tell those people, not so much to drive them away from this idea, but to, to understand what it really takes.

A There's kind of no easy way to say this, but, like, it's democratizing force and all this technology-lowering barriers just meet the participants. And so, effectively, if you're creating media on TikTok, right, like, you're not even competing for attention in your, in your following, in your social graph. Like, you're competing against the globe. You need to have, Something more compelling than tens of millions of people that are generating stuff. And so it's super hard. You know, one of the things I tried to do is like understand where you have advantages and, and where you have kind of like where you have an edge. So for us, it was music, right? Like, you know, maybe a. 10,000 people are releasing music on Spotify this Friday. Can we be in the top 100? Yeah. I think knowing where, where you're, where you're really gifted and where you can out-compete others. Cause it's, it's hyper-competitive for sure.

AI assessment note: “understand where you have advantages and, and where you have kind of like where you have an edge”

Q need a reminder. 2016 was a very different era. Uh, Britain just voted to leave the EU. Rihanna just released work. OpenAI and TikTok were literally just founded, like their absolute infancy stages. So again, we're in a very different world. And somehow, Trevor, you had this insight, this inkling that A virtual influencer like Lil Mikaela should be created. So what, what was the key insight at that time?

A Yeah, it's funny, I think, but the reality was, like, much like you mentioned, we were living in this kind of heightened political moment, like post-Trump, post-Brexit, and me, just being terminally online, had kind of spent these different evolutions from, like, web one to web two, uh, into, like, web three, or this kind of, like, or the present, and seeing these different media moments, and the narratives they could create, and how that could kind of, like, shape the ideologies and belief systems of young people, especially. And, you know, being in the States was hyper-aware of, like, What happened on four Chan and, you know, what was happening on social and meme magic and what it meant to create narratives that could, you know, capture heart and minds and, you know, how effective those can be and the double-edged sword that presented and kind of in parallel, I had kind of fallen in love with the, with this, this data set around a show called Will and Grace that I love that said that like Will and Grace was largely responsible for gay marriage in the U.S. that like, Public polling was tied to the ratings of that show, and so it seemed like there was an emergent new media, um, social, you know, Instagram, like, kind of, like, visual platforms that could be used for telling fictional stories, and that was really the dream. It was like, if you were going to build a modern Disney…

AI assessment note: “emergent new media, um, social... that could be used for telling fictional stories”

Q topic, like, are there any, I guess, any wisdom from your, like, six years of, of doing this and building this and seeing what works, what doesn't work, how much harder it really is to get traction, to get people to care about something? That you would almost, like, tell those people, not so much to drive them away from this idea, but to, to understand what it really takes.

A There's kind of no easy way to say this, but, like, it's democratizing force and all this technology-lowering barriers just meet the participants. And so, effectively, if you're creating media on TikTok, right, like, you're not even competing for attention in your, in your following, in your social graph. Like, you're competing against the globe. You need to have, Something more compelling than tens of millions of people that are generating stuff. And so it's super hard. You know, one of the things I tried to do is like understand where you have advantages and, and where you have kind of like where you have an edge. So for us, it was music, right? Like, you know, maybe a. 10,000 people are releasing music on Spotify this Friday. Can we be in the top 100? Yeah. I think knowing where, where you're, where you're really gifted and where you can out-compete others. Cause it's, it's hyper-competitive for sure.

AI assessment note: “understand where you have advantages and, and where you have kind of like where you have an edge.”

Q need a reminder. 2016 was a very different era. Uh, Britain just voted to leave the EU. Rihanna just released work. OpenAI and TikTok were literally just founded, like their absolute infancy stages. So again, we're in a very different world. And somehow, Trevor, you had this insight, this inkling that A virtual influencer like Lil Mikaela should be created. So what, what was the key insight at that time?

A Yeah, it's funny, I think, but the reality was, like, much like you mentioned, we were living in this kind of heightened political moment, like post-Trump, post-Brexit, and me, just being terminally online, had kind of spent these different evolutions from, like, web one to web two, uh, into, like, web three, or this kind of, like, or the present, and seeing these different media moments, and the narratives they could create, and how that could kind of, like, shape the ideologies and belief systems of young people, especially. And, you know, being in the States was hyper-aware of, like, What happened on four Chan and, you know, what was happening on social and meme magic and what it meant to create narratives that could, you know, capture heart and minds and, you know, how effective those can be and the double-edged sword that presented and kind of in parallel, I had kind of fallen in love with the, with this, this data set around a show called Will and Grace that I love that said that like Will and Grace was largely responsible for gay marriage in the U.S. that like, Public polling was tied to the ratings of that show, and so it seemed like there was an emergent new media, um, social, you know, Instagram, like, kind of, like, visual platforms that could be used for telling fictional stories, and that was really the dream. It was like, if you were going to build a modern Disney…

AI assessment note: “visual platforms that could be used for telling fictional stories, and that was really the dream”

Q affinity to not just humans, but characters in TV shows and these illustrated characters. But was there some sort of insight that you saw where, to me, I don't know if we saw very many virtual influencers that looked like humans. What was the insight of like, well, Michaela is Fake, but she also looks super real. She was like, almost like a new breed. You know what I mean?

A Yeah. Uh, I mean, there were, there were like zero, uh, and that's largely why like Isaac is in the picture. I mean, like no one was doing photorealistic, like bipedal human characters. There's this concept of the uncanny valley that, you know, there is this kind of middle ground between what an actual human likes and what like a, uh, a cartoonish looking like Hello Kitty human looks like, where it looks too human. But not human enough, and you get freaked out. It's like a Polar Express girl is often cited in this stuff. But as a result, you didn't really see anyone doing any of that stuff. And, and, you know, there were things happening in Asia. Hatsune Miku, you know, we're standing on the shoulders of giants like Miku. Yes. But we were interested in, I think, doing something, A, on social, and that was already going to be challenging a lot of norms. Like, there was still this perception that social media was for non-fiction. They were telling a fictional narrative inside that space. And I'd be doing it with, with a character. And if we minimize as much of the novelty as possible and keep as much of it familiar as possible, I thought we had a better chance of succeeding. And I thought it would be really easy. I was like, yeah, we can just make a vocal human. No good deal. And insert six years later, you know, trying to figure it out still. But Isaac really was like the, reall…

AI assessment note: “If we minimize as much of the novelty as possible and keep as much of it familiar”

Q Well, yeah, I'm actually curious from both of you over the Numerous years you've been doing this. What pushback did you see early on? And also, have you seen any of that pushback change? Like, these ideas around ethics, what's real, what's not? Should you be doing this?

A I mean, yeah, so many. That was part of, like, the, the premise, though, is that, like, we were gonna be first to the door and catch all the arrows. Like, we, we were gonna, like, make all the mistakes quite publicly. But I think the really lovely part about that is that we get to kind of, like, set the tone for how these things are understood going forward. Like, it was pretty clear that people were gonna, like, Leverage generative media, you know, virtual influencer, virtual characters to, you know, shape our reality. It's just like, it's, it's, it's too tempting not to. And so how do we go in and kind of like set some boundaries and some, some ways of behaving so that people follow in our path and kind of make things that are maybe more noble and righteous and other things that could have been done. Um, that said some really obvious things. I mean, like, I think people were really concerned about virtual characters and people having accounts Right? Like, it seems quite silly now. Well, they're like, wait a minute, how can this, like, fake person have a verified account? And at some point, you had to kind of extend that into, like, wait a minute, like, what is Coca-Cola, if not a fiction? And why do they have a blue check mark? There were interesting things in, like, startup land, like, what was, like, startup L. Jackson, or, like, all these Twitter accounts that were, like, …

AI assessment note: “people were really concerned about virtual characters and people having accounts”

Q affinity to not just humans, but characters in TV shows and these illustrated characters. But was there some sort of insight that you saw where, to me, I don't know if we saw very many virtual influencers that looked like humans. What was the insight of like, well, Michaela is Fake, but she also looks super real. She was like, almost like a new breed. You know what I mean?

A Yeah. Uh, I mean, there were, there were like zero, uh, and that's largely why like Isaac is in the picture. I mean, like no one was doing photorealistic, like bipedal human characters. There's this concept of the uncanny valley that, you know, there is this kind of middle ground between what an actual human likes and what like a, uh, a cartoonish looking like Hello Kitty human looks like, where it looks too human. But not human enough, and you get freaked out. It's like a Polar Express girl is often cited in this stuff. But as a result, you didn't really see anyone doing any of that stuff. And, and, you know, there were things happening in Asia. Hatsune Miku, you know, we're standing on the shoulders of giants like Miku. Yes. But we were interested in, I think, doing something, A, on social, and that was already going to be challenging a lot of norms. Like, there was still this perception that social media was for non-fiction. They were telling a fictional narrative inside that space. And I'd be doing it with, with a character. And if we minimize as much of the novelty as possible and keep as much of it familiar as possible, I thought we had a better chance of succeeding. And I thought it would be really easy. I was like, yeah, we can just make a vocal human. No good deal. And insert six years later, you know, trying to figure it out still. But Isaac really was like the, reall…

AI assessment note: “if we minimize as much of the novelty as possible and keep as much of it familiar”

Q Well, yeah, I'm actually curious from both of you over the Numerous years you've been doing this. What pushback did you see early on? And also, have you seen any of that pushback change? Like, these ideas around ethics, what's real, what's not? Should you be doing this?

A I mean, yeah, so many. That was part of, like, the, the premise, though, is that, like, we were gonna be first to the door and catch all the arrows. Like, we, we were gonna, like, make all the mistakes quite publicly. But I think the really lovely part about that is that we get to kind of, like, set the tone for how these things are understood going forward. Like, it was pretty clear that people were gonna, like, Leverage generative media, you know, virtual influencer, virtual characters to, you know, shape our reality. It's just like, it's, it's, it's too tempting not to. And so how do we go in and kind of like set some boundaries and some, some ways of behaving so that people follow in our path and kind of make things that are maybe more noble and righteous and other things that could have been done. Um, that said some really obvious things. I mean, like, I think people were really concerned about virtual characters and people having accounts Right? Like, it seems quite silly now. Well, they're like, wait a minute, how can this, like, fake person have a verified account? And at some point, you had to kind of extend that into, like, wait a minute, like, what is Coca-Cola, if not a fiction? And why do they have a blue check mark? There were interesting things in, like, startup land, like, what was, like, startup L. Jackson, or, like, all these Twitter accounts that were, like, …

AI assessment note: “people were really concerned about virtual characters... how can this, like, fake person have a verified account”

Q like what I was born with. I also can't be canceled. Right? Like there's, there's these dynamics to like, again, like this clean slate. Do you guys see that being the case where with enough time, like That is the reality where like most things that we see online are not quote unquote real. And then also how does that change our relationship with the things that we see online?

A I mean, I think we could argue about real and reality, you know, Yeah. I look at my Instagram feed and it's a lot of, like, scripted pranks or things that are, you know, led to make people believe that are real. It's, you know, people that have been highly altered in situation and context that are presented as real, like sitting on a private jet when you don't actually own that jet, right? And so I think, I think the sliding scale of reality will probably continue to move in the direction it's been heading in. But beyond that, you know, the thing that I'm most excited about is, is This kind of race to the bottom in a lot of media is going to, like, that bottom's going to hit far quicker because of AI. It's going to be really easy to be good at things.

AI assessment note: “the sliding scale of reality will probably continue to move in the direction it's been heading”

Q of this fan involvement, did that actually help you guys curve that narrative or adjust that narrative? It seems like it's easier than ever for someone to create one of these virtual influencers, and given that that may be the case that, like, there's going to be this flood of them, how important is building a narrative in getting this traction, having people really resonate with a character like this?

A I mean, it's, it's, it's all extremely hard, but I, I think narrative is, is, you know, like unthinkably hard, right? You know, there's, there's all kinds of books you can read about why you shouldn't build like narrative driven media businesses, because you, it's like building a fashion business. Like you have to keep things interesting forever. Like you can only keep lost interesting for so long. Like the Sopranos runs out of steam or maybe not perfect, but I think, you know, one of the ways we tried to solve for it or I thought about it was like integrating Michaela into the real world. Like, Oh, this is funny, like thinking about a lot of these concepts, but like one of the things we had talked about a lot was kind of inverting the traditional media pyramid, where traditionally you kind of started with this like longer form asset, like a Star Wars, and then you kind of iterate in like a Star Wars video game, comic book, all the way up to like a lightsaber you could buy at Target. And so you have this pyramid that moves from like big, expensive, long form asset into this like smaller thing. We want to invert that and start with just like a character, a still image, and then work up that stack into like longer form television and film.

AI assessment note: “I think narrative is, is, you know, like unthinkably hard”

Q like what I was born with. I also can't be canceled. Right? Like there's, there's these dynamics to like, again, like this clean slate. Do you guys see that being the case where with enough time, like That is the reality where like most things that we see online are not quote unquote real. And then also how does that change our relationship with the things that we see online?

A I mean, I think we could argue about real and reality, you know, Yeah. I look at my Instagram feed and it's a lot of, like, scripted pranks or things that are, you know, led to make people believe that are real. It's, you know, people that have been highly altered in situation and context that are presented as real, like sitting on a private jet when you don't actually own that jet, right? And so I think, I think the sliding scale of reality will probably continue to move in the direction it's been heading in. But beyond that, you know, the thing that I'm most excited about is, is This kind of race to the bottom in a lot of media is going to, like, that bottom's going to hit far quicker because of AI. It's going to be really easy to be good at things.

AI assessment note: “the sliding scale of reality will probably continue to move in the direction it's been heading”

Q What race is she? How old is she? What are her beliefs? And so given Trevor used the term terminally online and sounds like you still are, how did you use your, your background? I mean, you also worked at Spotify. You've like toured with Katie Perry, like you have this cultural understanding of what people like, and how did that feed into ultimately what you built into this character?

A Yeah, it's an interesting question, because when you're doing things like this, it's so open-ended. I mean, the other idea is, like, Michaela didn't need to be a fixed aesthetic or character. It could be this kind of, like, shapeshifter ever-evolving, you know, in the narrative, Michaela's 19 forever, and so there were decisions, like, I wanted to create constraints, because as a creative person, I like having constraints. I think it kind of, like, breeds really, like, interesting ideas, but, you know, some of the kind of early things, you know, I had worked in, like, making music as an artist and as a producer for a very long time, and it was, like, Pretty clear to me that there were these, like, underserved, really passionate audiences in Latin America, and so, you know, if you ever look at some, like, pop stars Instagram, 10% of the comments are, come to Brazil, come to Brazil, come to Brazil.

AI assessment note: “in the narrative, Michaela's 19 forever, and so there were decisions”

Q of this fan involvement, did that actually help you guys curve that narrative or adjust that narrative? It seems like it's easier than ever for someone to create one of these virtual influencers, and given that that may be the case that, like, there's going to be this flood of them, how important is building a narrative in getting this traction, having people really resonate with a character like this?

A I mean, it's, it's, it's all extremely hard, but I, I think narrative is, is, you know, like unthinkably hard, right? You know, there's, there's all kinds of books you can read about why you shouldn't build like narrative driven media businesses, because you, it's like building a fashion business. Like you have to keep things interesting forever. Like you can only keep lost interesting for so long. Like the Sopranos runs out of steam or maybe not perfect, but I think, you know, one of the ways we tried to solve for it or I thought about it was like integrating Michaela into the real world. Like, Oh, this is funny, like thinking about a lot of these concepts, but like one of the things we had talked about a lot was kind of inverting the traditional media pyramid, where traditionally you kind of started with this like longer form asset, like a Star Wars, and then you kind of iterate in like a Star Wars video game, comic book, all the way up to like a lightsaber you could buy at Target. And so you have this pyramid that moves from like big, expensive, long form asset into this like smaller thing. We want to invert that and start with just like a character, a still image, and then work up that stack into like longer form television and film.

AI assessment note: “I think narrative is, is, you know, like unthinkably hard”

Q think you did end up launching a A few other influencers, Bermuda, Blocko, like what was the, the next steps or how did you decide, okay, yes, we are going to expand this past Michaela. We are going to take on some of these really cool opportunities and invest in doing these longer form video narratives. And so, yeah, like what, what were the next steps past that early traction?

A Yeah, it's funny. I'm thinking back to kind of like original pitch stuff and, you know, I think initially it wasn't clear to investors like how this could be a venture sized bet, but like the bet to me was always like, okay, there's a coming computing shift. I called it spatial computing. I guess it's fine. That's now like the metaverse or whatever else. It seemed like all of the people that were building for the metaverse were building kind of universes and expecting people just to show up. If you believe they will come. And I always thought that like a character would pull you into emergent platform. So like, you know, Pikachu is the reason you get Pokemon Go. You know, you don't want to just walk around your yard scanning stuff. You want to follow Pikachu somewhere. And so like, if we kind of build a connective tissue between, you know, Web two and this emergent special computing thing, we'd be way out in front. And I think looking back on it now, the things we kind of got backwards or I got backwards was I was like, okay, billions flowing into VR and autonomous vehicles. And we're going to have this huge shift. It's going to allow, you know, generative media to come really quickly. And then once we can do that really quickly, a lot of value is going to shift to this like spiritual computing world and be able to build digital economies. And I think COVID accelerated digital …

AI assessment note: “I always thought that like a character would pull you into emergent platform.”

Q You could also imagine like a decentralized influencer where basically like not only is their worth distributed amongst a bunch of people, but actually like what they do, their narrative might be influenced by the people who have some sort of ownership over them. Trevor, why don't we start with you and just like any, any ideas on how technology actually advances, empowers our ability to create these, these characters?

A I mean, I could do this for years, we could just rip, but I mean, obviously the decentralized one is something that we're, you know, very excited about, and, you know, we're trying to build it dapper. You know, one thing I think about a lot is, like, why culture is not viewed as intellectual property, and, you know, you could almost see influencers as kind of, like, these, like, rent-seeking middlemen that have, like, the aesthetics that allow them to, like, do a dance that was popularized by some six-year-old girl in the hood. And capture a lot of the value that should have flowed back to that person, right? So I think the really challenging part with, like, culture and why it's, it's not intellectual property and why it's often, you know, caught in this crosshairs as being either, like, cultural appropriation or, like, unlicensable. Attribution is really hard and, like, remitting payments to the people that have, that you've identified as being a part of a culture or being owed for that, you know, using that representation. Um, and I think, you know, digital payments, like, you know, blockchains, right? And I think that, like, Tools that allow you to, like, quickly identify someone and, and where they, where they exist culturally. To me, the idea that, like, you know, as a Black person, you could identify a community and say, like, look, all of this rad shit happening here ha…

AI assessment note: “One thing I think about a lot is, like, why culture is not viewed”

Q What race is she? How old is she? What are her beliefs? And so given Trevor used the term terminally online and sounds like you still are, how did you use your, your background? I mean, you also worked at Spotify. You've like toured with Katie Perry, like you have this cultural understanding of what people like, and how did that feed into ultimately what you built into this character?

A Yeah, it's an interesting question, because when you're doing things like this, it's so open-ended. I mean, the other idea is, like, Michaela didn't need to be a fixed aesthetic or character. It could be this kind of, like, shapeshifter ever-evolving, you know, in the narrative, Michaela's 19 forever, and so there were decisions, like, I wanted to create constraints, because as a creative person, I like having constraints. I think it kind of, like, breeds really, like, interesting ideas, but, you know, some of the kind of early things, you know, I had worked in, like, making music as an artist and as a producer for a very long time, and it was, like, Pretty clear to me that there were these, like, underserved, really passionate audiences in Latin America, and so, you know, if you ever look at some, like, pop stars Instagram, 10% of the comments are, come to Brazil, come to Brazil, come to Brazil.

AI assessment note: “in the narrative, Michaela's 19 forever, and so there were decisions”

Q You could also imagine like a decentralized influencer where basically like not only is their worth distributed amongst a bunch of people, but actually like what they do, their narrative might be influenced by the people who have some sort of ownership over them. Trevor, why don't we start with you and just like any, any ideas on how technology actually advances, empowers our ability to create these, these characters?

A I mean, I could do this for years, we could just rip, but I mean, obviously the decentralized one is something that we're, you know, very excited about, and, you know, we're trying to build it dapper. You know, one thing I think about a lot is, like, why culture is not viewed as intellectual property, and, you know, you could almost see influencers as kind of, like, these, like, rent-seeking middlemen that have, like, the aesthetics that allow them to, like, do a dance that was popularized by some six-year-old girl in the hood. And capture a lot of the value that should have flowed back to that person, right? So I think the really challenging part with, like, culture and why it's, it's not intellectual property and why it's often, you know, caught in this crosshairs as being either, like, cultural appropriation or, like, unlicensable. Attribution is really hard and, like, remitting payments to the people that have, that you've identified as being a part of a culture or being owed for that, you know, using that representation. Um, and I think, you know, digital payments, like, you know, blockchains, right? And I think that, like, Tools that allow you to, like, quickly identify someone and, and where they, where they exist culturally. To me, the idea that, like, you know, as a Black person, you could identify a community and say, like, look, all of this rad shit happening here ha…

AI assessment note: “one thing I think about a lot is, like, why culture is not viewed as intellectual property”

Q think you did end up launching a A few other influencers, Bermuda, Blocko, like what was the, the next steps or how did you decide, okay, yes, we are going to expand this past Michaela. We are going to take on some of these really cool opportunities and invest in doing these longer form video narratives. And so, yeah, like what, what were the next steps past that early traction?

A Yeah, it's funny. I'm thinking back to kind of like original pitch stuff and, you know, I think initially it wasn't clear to investors like how this could be a venture sized bet, but like the bet to me was always like, okay, there's a coming computing shift. I called it spatial computing. I guess it's fine. That's now like the metaverse or whatever else. It seemed like all of the people that were building for the metaverse were building kind of universes and expecting people just to show up. If you believe they will come. And I always thought that like a character would pull you into emergent platform. So like, you know, Pikachu is the reason you get Pokemon Go. You know, you don't want to just walk around your yard scanning stuff. You want to follow Pikachu somewhere. And so like, if we kind of build a connective tissue between, you know, Web two and this emergent special computing thing, we'd be way out in front. And I think looking back on it now, the things we kind of got backwards or I got backwards was I was like, okay, billions flowing into VR and autonomous vehicles. And we're going to have this huge shift. It's going to allow, you know, generative media to come really quickly. And then once we can do that really quickly, a lot of value is going to shift to this like spiritual computing world and be able to build digital economies. And I think COVID accelerated digital …

AI assessment note: “I'm thinking back to kind of like original pitch stuff and, you know”