The Exchanges

Q how stating those on a page, and I'm not saying this is what you're articulating, but that's, that's often what people imagine, right? That's sitting on them on a page does not actually disseminate within an organization. And so how did you actually go about these kind of high level ideas of what your culture should be and actually implementing them and making sure that they're phased into the organization?

A The, these things that I'm about to say are not remote specific again, but you know, it's like, one is you gotta believe in your values and, uh, and you have to be a great example of them and then you have to hire for them and then you have to reward, uh, uh, them in kind of, in how you, you know, promote and build people in your organization. You have to kind of reiterate them and make choices based on them. So like when people see, You know, it's kind of like, you know, when people talk about, oh no, this is a soft value. What they mean is it doesn't matter. So then your values aren't being disseminated. But if people can see, you know, like in SafeTwing, we might, for example, say, oh yeah, no, we ended the relationship with this vendor because we were not able to kind of lift them up to the, what we want to do on the value of authenticity because they were just, you know, giving us this, you know, um, Um, bonus, uh, like bullshit marketing language or something like that. That was offensive. Sorry. Uh, but, uh, uh, you know, when people can see that, that this is not just, you know, uh, you know, a vague aspiration, but it's, uh, it's actually a hard constraint. It's something that we're willing to take costs to achieve. Then it becomes, uh, you know, uh, enforced and it, it's something to emulate. And then it becomes, you know, also something people can rely on, because th…

AI assessment note: “you have to hire for them and then you have to reward”

Q Got it. And I want to hear from both Darren and Sandra because you operate companies at scale with many employees distributed all across the world, across dozens of countries. So Sandra, why don't we start with you? How do you think about that within your organization?

A Yeah. Well, so we have opted for a flat, you know, the argument for it would go something like this, you know, remote has made the world into a global labor market and most people just haven't realized that yet. So when you, when we hire, you know, an extremely talented, you know, Bosnian genius software engineer, you know, at the moment we hire them, there may be like partly in their local labor market, but by the time they have, you know, Safe doing on their LinkedIn and they know about working remotely as a software engineer and they're very good. They're in the remote labor market and they can apply to other jobs. So then they're, I would say like suddenly they're underpaid because it is a different labor market. You know, the labor market is what are the participating employers and employees in a particular market? Um, and they are of course affected because they also have the local employers, right? That are competing at their salaries. But the global ones is where it's at. So I would say that's the direction. So we say we chose to kind of like skip to the, the end of the market equilibrium immediately, and we have a flat salary. There's also some fairness and I can understand, you know, there's pros and cons like the fairness argument, favor of local pays. Living conditions, but you know, with the people who work in safe doing, they're so mobile. So they, they move aroun…

AI assessment note: “we chose to kind of like skip to the, the end of the market equilibrium immediately, and we have a flat salary”

Q how stating those on a page, and I'm not saying this is what you're articulating, but that's, that's often what people imagine, right? That's sitting on them on a page does not actually disseminate within an organization. And so how did you actually go about these kind of high level ideas of what your culture should be and actually implementing them and making sure that they're phased into the organization?

A The, these things that I'm about to say are not remote specific again, but you know, it's like, one is you gotta believe in your values and, uh, and you have to be a great example of them and then you have to hire for them and then you have to reward, uh, uh, them in kind of, in how you, you know, promote and build people in your organization. You have to kind of reiterate them and make choices based on them. So like when people see, You know, it's kind of like, you know, when people talk about, oh no, this is a soft value. What they mean is it doesn't matter. So then your values aren't being disseminated. But if people can see, you know, like in SafeTwing, we might, for example, say, oh yeah, no, we ended the relationship with this vendor because we were not able to kind of lift them up to the, what we want to do on the value of authenticity because they were just, you know, giving us this, you know, um, Um, bonus, uh, like bullshit marketing language or something like that. That was offensive. Sorry. Uh, but, uh, uh, you know, when people can see that, that this is not just, you know, uh, you know, a vague aspiration, but it's, uh, it's actually a hard constraint. It's something that we're willing to take costs to achieve. Then it becomes, uh, you know, uh, enforced and it, it's something to emulate. And then it becomes, you know, also something people can rely on, because th…

AI assessment note: “you gotta believe in your values and, uh, and you have to be a great example”

Q you How you've seen culture in particular be facilitated remotely? Because this is one of the things that I hear the most from people who are trying to make the pivot from the office to online is that they're really seeing that that culture is lacking. So, Sandra, why don't we start with you as you've, you know, built up your company? How have you been able to facilitate that?

A Well, I mean, the basics of, I think, you know, a great culture is the same remote, which is, you know, your vision and values, you know, are they worthwhile and, you know, are they conducive to joy and productivity? Uh, and then it's like, how, how do you reinforce that? And, you know, and ensure that, you know, the norms and the way people treat each other in the company is in a way that, you know, that you want to work. Um, so a lot of it does kind of translate. I think what you have to do in addition is you do need more norms of written communication because more, more stuff is done in writing. So you need a culture of written communication, not just the culture of verbal communication. And so, you know, um, so, so we will talk a lot about that. I also think you need to build a more broader lattice, like a framework. So, you know, we were, we're a small company, but we're a 180 people from 70 different countries. We're really in many places. And so they are in all kinds of different locations. When you build a company in a city, you can sort of build on top of the cultural lattice in that city, and you kind of don't have to say those things that are shared cultural norms. When you are global, you have to build that, like, foundation for everyone. So I do think that culture becomes more important. You have to emphasize the kind of full shared cultural lattice that people can…

AI assessment note: “you do need more norms of written communication because more, more stuff is done in writing”

Q Got it. And I want to hear from both Darren and Sandra because you operate companies at scale with many employees distributed all across the world, across dozens of countries. So Sandra, why don't we start with you? How do you think about that within your organization?

A Yeah. Well, so we have opted for a flat, you know, the argument for it would go something like this, you know, remote has made the world into a global labor market and most people just haven't realized that yet. So when you, when we hire, you know, an extremely talented, you know, Bosnian genius software engineer, you know, at the moment we hire them, there may be like partly in their local labor market, but by the time they have, you know, Safe doing on their LinkedIn and they know about working remotely as a software engineer and they're very good. They're in the remote labor market and they can apply to other jobs. So then they're, I would say like suddenly they're underpaid because it is a different labor market. You know, the labor market is what are the participating employers and employees in a particular market? Um, and they are of course affected because they also have the local employers, right? That are competing at their salaries. But the global ones is where it's at. So I would say that's the direction. So we say we chose to kind of like skip to the, the end of the market equilibrium immediately, and we have a flat salary. There's also some fairness and I can understand, you know, there's pros and cons like the fairness argument, favor of local pays. Living conditions, but you know, with the people who work in safe doing, they're so mobile. So they, they move aroun…

AI assessment note: “we chose to kind of like skip to the, the end of the market equilibrium immediately”

Q So if you're choosing this flat approach, how are you setting that? Is that based on where your HQ is? And if it is, if it's not an SF, are you finding that it's tough to hire some of the talent that is at those upper echelons?

A Yeah. I mean, that, that kind of depends on, you know, what talent we're looking for. Right. So, uh, in our case we are within the SF band. Yes. You know, but we're not on the top of the SF band, you know, we're not competing with Who was it on top? Walmart, highest paid engineers. They have to pay more, but, uh, uh, it's, um, we are in that range. Yes. And, you know, I think that seems to be where it's going right now. I, I kind of like Alex a bit baffled by that. Uh, I saw some data from Carter last month, which saw that U S jurisdictions were actually converging on San Francisco salaries, uh, in their dataset, which is of course, uh, just a national Like a US data set, um, that, that it's possible. That is what will happen for the top, for top talent, right? In knowledge work. Because, you know, if, uh, you know, the, you know, even if you live in some tiny town with, uh, you know, 5000 people, if you are like an amazing machine learning engineer, you can still have a great job at Google, right? So And, and maybe it is the most productive companies, uh, like them that will, you know, that will compete for you. So that might be what will happen, that we will converge on the top talent on, on the Bay Area salary.

AI assessment note: “in our case we are within the SF band. Yes.”

Q So if you're choosing this flat approach, how are you setting that? Is that based on where your HQ is? And if it is, if it's not an SF, are you finding that it's tough to hire some of the talent that is at those upper echelons?

A Yeah. I mean, that, that kind of depends on, you know, what talent we're looking for. Right. So, uh, in our case we are within the SF band. Yes. You know, but we're not on the top of the SF band, you know, we're not competing with Who was it on top? Walmart, highest paid engineers. They have to pay more, but, uh, uh, it's, um, we are in that range. Yes. And, you know, I think that seems to be where it's going right now. I, I kind of like Alex a bit baffled by that. Uh, I saw some data from Carter last month, which saw that U S jurisdictions were actually converging on San Francisco salaries, uh, in their dataset, which is of course, uh, just a national Like a US data set, um, that, that it's possible. That is what will happen for the top, for top talent, right? In knowledge work. Because, you know, if, uh, you know, the, you know, even if you live in some tiny town with, uh, you know, 5000 people, if you are like an amazing machine learning engineer, you can still have a great job at Google, right? So And, and maybe it is the most productive companies, uh, like them that will, you know, that will compete for you. So that might be what will happen, that we will converge on the top talent on, on the Bay Area salary.

AI assessment note: “in our case we are within the SF band. Yes.”

Q you How you've seen culture in particular be facilitated remotely? Because this is one of the things that I hear the most from people who are trying to make the pivot from the office to online is that they're really seeing that that culture is lacking. So, Sandra, why don't we start with you as you've, you know, built up your company? How have you been able to facilitate that?

A Well, I mean, the basics of, I think, you know, a great culture is the same remote, which is, you know, your vision and values, you know, are they worthwhile and, you know, are they conducive to joy and productivity? Uh, and then it's like, how, how do you reinforce that? And, you know, and ensure that, you know, the norms and the way people treat each other in the company is in a way that, you know, that you want to work. Um, so a lot of it does kind of translate. I think what you have to do in addition is you do need more norms of written communication because more, more stuff is done in writing. So you need a culture of written communication, not just the culture of verbal communication. And so, you know, um, so, so we will talk a lot about that. I also think you need to build a more broader lattice, like a framework. So, you know, we were, we're a small company, but we're a 180 people from 70 different countries. We're really in many places. And so they are in all kinds of different locations. When you build a company in a city, you can sort of build on top of the cultural lattice in that city, and you kind of don't have to say those things that are shared cultural norms. When you are global, you have to build that, like, foundation for everyone. So I do think that culture becomes more important. You have to emphasize the kind of full shared cultural lattice that people can…

AI assessment note: “you do need more norms of written communication because more, more stuff is done in writing.”