The Exchanges

Q When did you realize that this was the way you were going to build a company? That, that, like, how did you intuit, like, hey, distribution is a scarcity, distribution is what matters, and that, because there's a lot of creators out there, but they're not combining it with a tech company. Like, how did you, how and when did you put this together?

A I guess, I guess there was a certain point where I kept going viral that I sort of realized that I know something that ex-LinkedIn people don't know yet, and it is sort of like mastery of the algorithm. Um, Um, and I think, like, the, everything started with the Interview Coder situation. Um, Interview Coder was the earliest prototype of Cluey, and it was a tool to let you cheat on technical interviews. And I used it to cheat my way through an Amazon interview. I made it super public. I posted it everywhere and ended up getting me, like, blacklisted from Big Tech and kicked out of school. Um, and that situation was inherently viral. Like, when's the last time someone got kicked out of an Ivy League and raised five million dollars? Like, this has probably never happened in the history of humanity. Um, so that situation was inherently viral. And at that time, I had no idea that this was, like, a repeatable thing that I could do. Um, but then the launch video happened, and I had my intuitions about the virality of launch video, and I just kept scrolling on Twitter, and I was wondering, like, man, why is nobody doing what Avi Schiffman with friend.com showed the world you could do a year ago? Like, why has nobody done this, done this yet? And it worked. And then I did the 50 interns thing, and it worked, and like, like, I kept doing viral video after viral video, and at a certain p…

AI assessment note: “there was a certain point where I kept going viral that I sort of realized”

Q When did you realize that this was the way you were going to build a company? That, that, like, how did you intuit, like, hey, distribution is a scarcity, distribution is what matters, and that, because there's a lot of creators out there, but they're not combining it with a tech company. Like, how did you, how and when did you put this together?

A I guess, I guess there was a certain point where I kept going viral that I sort of realized that I know something that ex-LinkedIn people don't know yet, and it is sort of like mastery of the algorithm. Um, Um, and I think, like, the, everything started with the Interview Coder situation. Um, Interview Coder was the earliest prototype of Cluey, and it was a tool to let you cheat on technical interviews. And I used it to cheat my way through an Amazon interview. I made it super public. I posted it everywhere and ended up getting me, like, blacklisted from Big Tech and kicked out of school. Um, and that situation was inherently viral. Like, when's the last time someone got kicked out of an Ivy League and raised five million dollars? Like, this has probably never happened in the history of humanity. Um, so that situation was inherently viral. And at that time, I had no idea that this was, like, a repeatable thing that I could do. Um, but then the launch video happened, and I had my intuitions about the virality of launch video, and I just kept scrolling on Twitter, and I was wondering, like, man, why is nobody doing what Avi Schiffman with friend.com showed the world you could do a year ago? Like, why has nobody done this, done this yet? And it worked. And then I did the 50 interns thing, and it worked, and like, like, I kept doing viral video after viral video, and at a certain p…

AI assessment note: “there was a certain point where I kept going viral that I sort of realized”

Q redefining kind of what a minimum viable product is to some degree, like people have to spend, you know, other people, other companies will spend many months building this thing and then seeing how people use it. But for you, if you can create, you know, sort of draft the right content, you can test out the idea in a much quicker way to see, Hey, is this really resonating?

A Yeah, exactly. I mean, we didn't even have, like when we launched the video, like we barely had a functioning product. Like we, the day before is when we finished our final test and we're like, okay, we think this works. Now, let's just launch the video as soon as possible. And we launched the video, and like, all of a sudden, tens of thousands, we just said, hey, let's just throw sales calls in the videos to see if people use it for sales calls, because that seems like a pretty lucrative space. All of a sudden, we have, like, over a million dollars of enterprise revenue coming in from people using it for sales calls, and this is just, ah, like, you can shot in the dark distribution a lot quicker and a lot more accurately than you can shot in the dark, um, product. And you don't need, like, a million product integrations, like, like, it's just so much quicker. And what's even better about it is that the, the iteration loop is much faster too, because the algorithm will literally tell you via a number, which is number of views, like shares, whatever, like how well your, your strategy is going to work. So it's like, it's, it's much, much easier to test. Is this viral? Does this have viral fit rather than does this have like, you know, market fit?

AI assessment note: “we didn't even have, like when we launched the video, like we barely had a functioning product.”

Q redefining kind of what a minimum viable product is to some degree, like people have to spend, you know, other people, other companies will spend many months building this thing and then seeing how people use it. But for you, if you can create, you know, sort of draft the right content, you can test out the idea in a much quicker way to see, Hey, is this really resonating?

A Yeah, exactly. I mean, we didn't even have, like when we launched the video, like we barely had a functioning product. Like we, the day before is when we finished our final test and we're like, okay, we think this works. Now, let's just launch the video as soon as possible. And we launched the video, and like, all of a sudden, tens of thousands, we just said, hey, let's just throw sales calls in the videos to see if people use it for sales calls, because that seems like a pretty lucrative space. All of a sudden, we have, like, over a million dollars of enterprise revenue coming in from people using it for sales calls, and this is just, ah, like, you can shot in the dark distribution a lot quicker and a lot more accurately than you can shot in the dark, um, product. And you don't need, like, a million product integrations, like, like, it's just so much quicker. And what's even better about it is that the, the iteration loop is much faster too, because the algorithm will literally tell you via a number, which is number of views, like shares, whatever, like how well your, your strategy is going to work. So it's like, it's, it's much, much easier to test. Is this viral? Does this have viral fit rather than does this have like, you know, market fit?

AI assessment note: “when we launched the video, like we barely had a functioning product.”

Q And when did you figure out the translucent overlay was the, was the right thing?

A Yeah, I mean, I was just in my dorm with Neil, and we were just, like, we literally spent every day thinking about how can you make InterviewCoder more invisible to interviews, and, and, and we, we, we played around, and there's probably like, 20 to 30 versions of InterviewCoder in the past that just, we thought didn't work, but, you know, you, you, you, essentially, it feeds you a code answer, like, like an answer to a coding problem, and you need to overlay that on top of your code, and we're just like, man, I really need this integrated into my code. I need to see what I'm doing as well as see the answer that AI is giving me. And eventually we just landed on translucency and this was like, wow, this is like a magical moment. This is what the product needed. And like very soon we realized like, why are we only thinking about coding interviews and like software engineering coding interviews? This is such a small market. Like, like this is true for everything. AI should not feel like a separate window. Like it should be integrated seamlessly and that, that, that, that looks like translucency.

AI assessment note: “I was just in my dorm with Neil... eventually we just landed on translucency”

Q And so do you think this is a strategy that other companies should also be employing of basically having, whether it's intern based or just like having an army of creators and sort of deploying them towards, towards their end?

A Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll go a bit deeper in the interns. So, so, so cool. We made a pretty viral video announcing that we were hiring 50 interns and you'd be in here making content all day. And, um, Essentially, that, that, that's almost what we do. We have, like, over 60 contractors. These contractors get paid per video, and they just are forced to sit in front of a camera and make TikTok and Instagram videos about Cluelay. And this is what marketing looked like. This job does not exist five years ago. Like, like, how do you explain the job if you sit in front of a camera and you make five, 10 second videos that make, seemingly make no sense to anybody, but, but just consistently generate millions of views. Like, that, that's not a job that makes sense to people. Um, but that, That is our internship. That's what, like, a modern day marketing internship looks like. Look, we pay very little money for the amount of views that we get, and different companies, like, like, they're, they're paying literally millions of dollars for Super Bowl ads when you can get the same quality and quantity of views. 20,000 dollars.

AI assessment note: “different companies, like, like, they're, they're paying literally millions of dollars for Super Bowl ads”

Q And when did you figure out the translucent overlay was the, was the right thing?

A Yeah, I mean, I was just in my dorm with Neil, and we were just, like, we literally spent every day thinking about how can you make InterviewCoder more invisible to interviews, and, and, and we, we, we played around, and there's probably like, 20 to 30 versions of InterviewCoder in the past that just, we thought didn't work, but, you know, you, you, you, essentially, it feeds you a code answer, like, like an answer to a coding problem, and you need to overlay that on top of your code, and we're just like, man, I really need this integrated into my code. I need to see what I'm doing as well as see the answer that AI is giving me. And eventually we just landed on translucency and this was like, wow, this is like a magical moment. This is what the product needed. And like very soon we realized like, why are we only thinking about coding interviews and like software engineering coding interviews? This is such a small market. Like, like this is true for everything. AI should not feel like a separate window. Like it should be integrated seamlessly and that, that, that, that looks like translucency.

AI assessment note: “eventually we just landed on translucency and this was like, wow”

Q And so do you think this is a strategy that other companies should also be employing of basically having, whether it's intern based or just like having an army of creators and sort of deploying them towards, towards their end?

A Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll go a bit deeper in the interns. So, so, so cool. We made a pretty viral video announcing that we were hiring 50 interns and you'd be in here making content all day. And, um, Essentially, that, that, that's almost what we do. We have, like, over 60 contractors. These contractors get paid per video, and they just are forced to sit in front of a camera and make TikTok and Instagram videos about Cluelay. And this is what marketing looked like. This job does not exist five years ago. Like, like, how do you explain the job if you sit in front of a camera and you make five, 10 second videos that make, seemingly make no sense to anybody, but, but just consistently generate millions of views. Like, that, that's not a job that makes sense to people. Um, but that, That is our internship. That's what, like, a modern day marketing internship looks like. Look, we pay very little money for the amount of views that we get, and different companies, like, like, they're, they're paying literally millions of dollars for Super Bowl ads when you can get the same quality and quantity of views. 20,000 dollars.

AI assessment note: “they're paying literally millions of dollars for Super Bowl ads when you can get”

Q Or behind the other platforms. Talk a little bit about, well first, just like when your sort of provocativeness sort of translated over to Twitter or just like the digital mediums, like how did that strategy evolve? And let's talk about the difference in the platform.

A I think... And this, this goes way back, but, but, but many years ago when YouTube first came out as a platform, this was like the turning point of everything. This democratized, essentially content, and now you weren't paying for commercials, uh, and, and the visibility and publicity and content was not gated by amount of money you're willing to spend on ads or, or, or, or TV space. It's, it's just gated by the quality of content. And five years ago when TikTok came out and, and short form algorithms really started taking over, that shifted the, the, The, the, the frame once again. So now it's not about how much good content you make. It's literally just about how much content can you make. There is simply not enough good content out there for the average person to consume, which is why you see like, like, like the same brain rot reels over and over and over again, over and over again. You see the same Minecraft parkour video over and over just cause there's literally not enough content for the average consumer to, to, to consume. And people have not caught on to a few things. First, you just need to make more content that A consumer will, like, most people don't know how to make viral content. Content that any person can watch, consume, and is digestible. And everyone on, on xLinkedIn is trying to go for like, be like the most intellectual, like, like thoughtful person, and t…

AI assessment note: “when YouTube first came out as a platform, this was like the turning point”

Q Or behind the other platforms. Talk a little bit about, well first, just like when your sort of provocativeness sort of translated over to Twitter or just like the digital mediums, like how did that strategy evolve? And let's talk about the difference in the platform.

A I think... And this, this goes way back, but, but, but many years ago when YouTube first came out as a platform, this was like the turning point of everything. This democratized, essentially content, and now you weren't paying for commercials, uh, and, and the visibility and publicity and content was not gated by amount of money you're willing to spend on ads or, or, or, or TV space. It's, it's just gated by the quality of content. And five years ago when TikTok came out and, and short form algorithms really started taking over, that shifted the, the, The, the, the frame once again. So now it's not about how much good content you make. It's literally just about how much content can you make. There is simply not enough good content out there for the average person to consume, which is why you see like, like, like the same brain rot reels over and over and over again, over and over again. You see the same Minecraft parkour video over and over just cause there's literally not enough content for the average consumer to, to, to consume. And people have not caught on to a few things. First, you just need to make more content that A consumer will, like, most people don't know how to make viral content. Content that any person can watch, consume, and is digestible. And everyone on, on xLinkedIn is trying to go for like, be like the most intellectual, like, like thoughtful person, and t…

AI assessment note: “when TikTok came out and, and short form algorithms really started taking over, that shifted”

Q How does it feel? The, the, the announcement the other day, uh, a lot of love, a little bit of hate. Maybe more than a little myth. Um, and any reactions? How do you react to this?

A I mean, it's, it's pretty crazy. Uh, I think, like, literally six months ago, I was some random college kid in a dorm, and now I feel like I'm at the center of the tech universe. And, um, It's, the more astonishing thing is how correct my assumptions on virality have been. I think it's growing increasingly clear that, uh, people on ex-LinkedIn are behind, and there's such a very, extremely small intersection of people who understand how developed the algorithm is on, like, Instagram, TikTok, and people on tech, like, Twitter, LinkedIn, ex-LinkedIn, and there's just such a small intersection that it's inevitable that my, my predictions will be right, and, um, it's been crazy to see that play out in real time.

AI assessment note: “now I feel like I'm at the center of the tech universe.”

Q So how, how do you think about this?

A Yeah, I mean, I, I guess we're first to move in a pretty novel UX, and I think, like, we did get to translucent, like, I think everyone's going to inevitably get the translucent overlay. This is how an integrated AI should feel, and, like, Apple shows everyone that, like, liquid glass is the translucent overlay that, that, that, that will be the form factor of AI in the future. Right now, I feel like it's just a land grab, and, um, if the question is about distribution, then I think there's actually, like, a pretty strong case for us to make that we will actually end up distributing better than OpenAI, and, um, It's enough that you could probably bet on us at like, well, like a 30,000 X discount. Um, and, and, and I, I'm actually not, not worried about distribution, and I think the quant, the quality of the product, I mean, it's, it's quite simple. Um, I, I really feel like this is just a land grab right now to see who can convince as many consumers and enterprise first that they are the guy who deserves to win the translucent overlay. And right now we're making so much noise. I mean, like with the translucent overlay, like, like, why would it not be us?

AI assessment note: “if the question is about distribution, then I think there's actually, like, a pretty strong case”