The Exchanges

Q to be talking about all things audio, creators, communities, social. So why don't we just start out because both of you have been podcasting for the last couple of years on your Good Time show, which started in 2020. What made you start that show? Was it the fact that you wanted to build a network? Was it just for fun? What was going through your mind at the time?

A Kind of a happy accident. So this is 2020 December, kind of the thick of the pandemic, and we're all working from home. We miss seeing our friends. We used to go home to India once a year, and we didn't do that that year. And, you know, we basically thought, wouldn't it be nice to kind of host like a virtual dinner party kind of thing? Because we used to host all like these founders at home. Uh, once a month or so and just have conversations about building companies and startups and stuff. And we just didn't do that in person anymore. So we thought, you know, we, we could maybe host this as a live audio session. We started this on Clubhouse and that's kind of how the whole show started.

AI assessment note: “we basically thought, wouldn't it be nice to kind of host like a virtual dinner party”

Q to be talking about all things audio, creators, communities, social. So why don't we just start out because both of you have been podcasting for the last couple of years on your Good Time show, which started in 2020. What made you start that show? Was it the fact that you wanted to build a network? Was it just for fun? What was going through your mind at the time?

A Kind of a happy accident. So this is 2020 December, kind of the thick of the pandemic, and we're all working from home. We miss seeing our friends. We used to go home to India once a year, and we didn't do that that year. And, you know, we basically thought, wouldn't it be nice to kind of host like a virtual dinner party kind of thing? Because we used to host all like these founders at home. Uh, once a month or so and just have conversations about building companies and startups and stuff. And we just didn't do that in person anymore. So we thought, you know, we, we could maybe host this as a live audio session. We started this on Clubhouse and that's kind of how the whole show started.

AI assessment note: “wouldn't it be nice to kind of host like a virtual dinner party”

Q you've ventured into recently is these in-person events and, and really translating what you're doing Digitally into something physically. Audience is kind of unidirectional. Um, a bunch of people listening to your podcast, but a community, there's connections within the communities of listeners to other listeners. Um, and then also in reverse from you as hosts back to the community as well. And so how are you thinking about that?

A That's the goal. That's the longterm goal. Uh, we want to have these cohorts of people when they engage with us, it's not just value from our show and our content, but from each other being in that same cohort, right? Like that's, I think, The ideal in-state for us. That day, that evening, when we had people coming in, that's, I think, kind of when it hit both of us where we were like, This is really cool. We have a couple hundred people here who showed up for no reason other than to just come see us in person and hang out with us. And to us, we were like, wait a second, like we've kind of gone from just being these podcast hosts who are like goofy, getting guests to like show up to being like, we can now have these people and a lot of them there, I think like 70% of them are like founders. And, uh, it was great because they all got value from just talking to each other.

AI assessment note: “That's the goal. That's the longterm goal. Uh, we want to have these cohorts”

Q you've ventured into recently is these in-person events and, and really translating what you're doing Digitally into something physically. Audience is kind of unidirectional. Um, a bunch of people listening to your podcast, but a community, there's connections within the communities of listeners to other listeners. Um, and then also in reverse from you as hosts back to the community as well. And so how are you thinking about that?

A That's the goal. That's the longterm goal. Uh, we want to have these cohorts of people when they engage with us, it's not just value from our show and our content, but from each other being in that same cohort, right? Like that's, I think, The ideal in-state for us. That day, that evening, when we had people coming in, that's, I think, kind of when it hit both of us where we were like, This is really cool. We have a couple hundred people here who showed up for no reason other than to just come see us in person and hang out with us. And to us, we were like, wait a second, like we've kind of gone from just being these podcast hosts who are like goofy, getting guests to like show up to being like, we can now have these people and a lot of them there, I think like 70% of them are like founders. And, uh, it was great because they all got value from just talking to each other.

AI assessment note: “That's the goal. That's the longterm goal. Uh, we want to have these cohorts”

Q the top podcasts, the charts, um, they're all people who had large distribution, who were already successful, Um, who already had reach, uh, who are really dominating there. And you could say that's partially because of the discoverability or monetization that exists within audio. But do you have any thoughts there on whether we're really going to be able to build this quote unquote creator middle class within audio specifically?

A You are kind of what you measure, right? And, uh, with audio, there's just not a whole lot that's, uh, measurable right now. A lot of it is just like hidden behind these big black boxes. Right at the beginning, we played this game. You're looking at like 4500 downloads an episode to make it to one percent. So where does the chart fall off? Like, what is distribution like? Who's getting that? There's no transparency of metrics. I think if you have better metrics and better discoverability, just helping creators be successful with more tools, I think you're going to get there. But I think the other part of it is, at the end of the day, if you're making money through brands or sponsorships or any of these, brands need to start seeing value, right? And I think that feedback loop is not quite there yet, where it's like, well, okay, This person talked about this product. They gave a coupon code and the attribution system behind it. Like a lot of it is still super early days. We haven't kind of cracked that feedback loop, so it's going to happen, but I think it's just going to be a while. And just like any other, like, you know, social networks, a lot of the, you know, the, the top percentile or couple percentile creators are going to have like an outsized kind of return and impact. And then there's this big long tail of folks that you're going to see.

AI assessment note: “it's going to happen, but I think it's just going to be a while.”

Q the top podcasts, the charts, um, they're all people who had large distribution, who were already successful, Um, who already had reach, uh, who are really dominating there. And you could say that's partially because of the discoverability or monetization that exists within audio. But do you have any thoughts there on whether we're really going to be able to build this quote unquote creator middle class within audio specifically?

A You are kind of what you measure, right? And, uh, with audio, there's just not a whole lot that's, uh, measurable right now. A lot of it is just like hidden behind these big black boxes. Right at the beginning, we played this game. You're looking at like 4500 downloads an episode to make it to one percent. So where does the chart fall off? Like, what is distribution like? Who's getting that? There's no transparency of metrics. I think if you have better metrics and better discoverability, just helping creators be successful with more tools, I think you're going to get there. But I think the other part of it is, at the end of the day, if you're making money through brands or sponsorships or any of these, brands need to start seeing value, right? And I think that feedback loop is not quite there yet, where it's like, well, okay, This person talked about this product. They gave a coupon code and the attribution system behind it. Like a lot of it is still super early days. We haven't kind of cracked that feedback loop, so it's going to happen, but I think it's just going to be a while. And just like any other, like, you know, social networks, a lot of the, you know, the, the top percentile or couple percentile creators are going to have like an outsized kind of return and impact. And then there's this big long tail of folks that you're going to see.

AI assessment note: “so it's going to happen, but I think it's just going to be a while.”

Q you effectively, as you're going into these interviews with people who are so media trained and have done so many interviews, likely a lot of those interviews have the same questions being asked. And I've found, at least listening to both of your shows, Like, you do somehow find a way to get them off their talk track. Do you have any thoughts on how you've managed to do that?

A Our job here is to, one, make sure that the guest feels like this is a good use of their time. They're here for an hour. They're usually really busy people. Our other job is to, you know, we have all these people, and we know our cohorts of audience who are, like, listening, watching, you know, the show. They often tend to be, you know, not from the same world that we are, but aspirationally, they want to be here. They're typically founders or aspiring founders. They're young. A lot of them are very geographically distributed. And so for a lot of them, like, I think of our job as to be in service of them and to make sure that we are able to bridge the gap between what would they want and what, what is interesting to them and getting the guests to feel like they can convey that in that timeframe that they have. It sounds really clinical when I put it that way, but really like an hour every week of somebody spending the time to listen is a huge investment on their part. And we want to make sure that It is actually valuable to them. I know what this person is working on, or what they're doing, or what their day-to-day looks like, or the book that they wrote, or anything of that sort. But I think it is still worth it to ask the question so that the person who's listening on the other end gets the value out of it, because I can't assume that they know. And so some of the questions m…

AI assessment note: “it sounds so basic, but sometimes that's kind of where... you get interesting answers”

Q If you put your founder hat on, are there certain companies or gaps that you think really need to be addressed that could help podcasters like you and I?

A There are a few parts to look at this, right? One is the content, the guest booking, like we look at the whole funnel of the podcast, right? And if you look at it, there's an initial part, which is like the prep, getting the guest booked on our show, you know, actually hosting the conversation, recording it, the tools for recording it, all of that. There, if you look at it initially, it used to be super manual. You know, the tools were not that great. Uh, guest booking was, like, calendly chaos of, like, going back and forth between the three of us. And so, like, a lot of that has gotten a bit more streamlined. Then, uh, post-recording, we used to struggle with, like, okay, transcripts, what do we do now? Break this into clips so that it's bite-sized and consumable. We want Insta Reels. What do we do there? TikTok has to look different, feel different. Shorts is a little bit different. Like, it has to be under a minute. Now, Reels are, like, can be a little bit longer. So you kind of sort of have to figure this out. And now I think things, tools like Descript has been helpful. There are lots of other tools that are, like, now coming and playing a really good role there. And then post, right, like looking at metrics and stuff, um, we use Anchor, we use Simplecast, we look at, like, podcast download numbers. YouTube has been really good. Like, I really like the Studio metrics pag…

AI assessment note: “There are a lot of these, like, tools that are now coming in”

Q If you put your founder hat on, are there certain companies or gaps that you think really need to be addressed that could help podcasters like you and I?

A There are a few parts to look at this, right? One is the content, the guest booking, like we look at the whole funnel of the podcast, right? And if you look at it, there's an initial part, which is like the prep, getting the guest booked on our show, you know, actually hosting the conversation, recording it, the tools for recording it, all of that. There, if you look at it initially, it used to be super manual. You know, the tools were not that great. Uh, guest booking was, like, calendly chaos of, like, going back and forth between the three of us. And so, like, a lot of that has gotten a bit more streamlined. Then, uh, post-recording, we used to struggle with, like, okay, transcripts, what do we do now? Break this into clips so that it's bite-sized and consumable. We want Insta Reels. What do we do there? TikTok has to look different, feel different. Shorts is a little bit different. Like, it has to be under a minute. Now, Reels are, like, can be a little bit longer. So you kind of sort of have to figure this out. And now I think things, tools like Descript has been helpful. There are lots of other tools that are, like, now coming and playing a really good role there. And then post, right, like looking at metrics and stuff, um, we use Anchor, we use Simplecast, we look at, like, podcast download numbers. YouTube has been really good. Like, I really like the Studio metrics pag…

AI assessment note: “There are a lot of these, like, tools that are now coming in and just getting really good”

Q you effectively, as you're going into these interviews with people who are so media trained and have done so many interviews, likely a lot of those interviews have the same questions being asked. And I've found, at least listening to both of your shows, Like, you do somehow find a way to get them off their talk track. Do you have any thoughts on how you've managed to do that?

A Our job here is to, one, make sure that the guest feels like this is a good use of their time. They're here for an hour. They're usually really busy people. Our other job is to, you know, we have all these people, and we know our cohorts of audience who are, like, listening, watching, you know, the show. They often tend to be, you know, not from the same world that we are, but aspirationally, they want to be here. They're typically founders or aspiring founders. They're young. A lot of them are very geographically distributed. And so for a lot of them, like, I think of our job as to be in service of them and to make sure that we are able to bridge the gap between what would they want and what, what is interesting to them and getting the guests to feel like they can convey that in that timeframe that they have. It sounds really clinical when I put it that way, but really like an hour every week of somebody spending the time to listen is a huge investment on their part. And we want to make sure that It is actually valuable to them. I know what this person is working on, or what they're doing, or what their day-to-day looks like, or the book that they wrote, or anything of that sort. But I think it is still worth it to ask the question so that the person who's listening on the other end gets the value out of it, because I can't assume that they know. And so some of the questions m…

AI assessment note: “breaks them out of that mold of the PR spiel”

Q It really is this maze where you're like, I think something's working because people are listening, but it's really hard to tease out what is working. So where would you say the show is now? Like what, what kind of show are you trying to create?

A We didn't start out with, we want to be creators. I see a lot of people who are like starting podcasts now where they're like, this is a theme and this is a show. And I keep trying to tell them, That's fine, but there's a very good chance that it's all going to change over time, and you might not, like, see success right away with, with this exact vision that you have in mind. You know, if you had told us two years ago, oh, you have to have this, like, whole setup with lights and everything and this backdrop and video and all of that, we would have been like, yeah, I don't think so. Like, I just don't think we are that. But now, you know, it's given us the time and buffer to just, like, learn and grow through this and feel comfortable doing what we do. And so now I think the show, uh, how would you describe where we are now?

AI assessment note: “how would you describe where we are now?”

Q It really is this maze where you're like, I think something's working because people are listening, but it's really hard to tease out what is working. So where would you say the show is now? Like what, what kind of show are you trying to create?

A We didn't start out with, we want to be creators. I see a lot of people who are like starting podcasts now where they're like, this is a theme and this is a show. And I keep trying to tell them, That's fine, but there's a very good chance that it's all going to change over time, and you might not, like, see success right away with, with this exact vision that you have in mind. You know, if you had told us two years ago, oh, you have to have this, like, whole setup with lights and everything and this backdrop and video and all of that, we would have been like, yeah, I don't think so. Like, I just don't think we are that. But now, you know, it's given us the time and buffer to just, like, learn and grow through this and feel comfortable doing what we do. And so now I think the show, uh, how would you describe where we are now?

AI assessment note: “how would you describe where we are now?”