Jan 2, 2019 · 22m · a16z
a16z Podcast | Location, Location, Location -- and Mobile
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of the a16z Podcast, Benedict Evans and Steve Cheney of Estimote discuss how mobile location technology, indoor micro-positioning, and sensor heuristics are shifting computing from reactive search to proactive, context-aware user experiences.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. How this is scored →
The host as informed peer 5.8 Guest teaching 3.8 Guest disagreement 1.9 The host pushing back 2.6
speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 18:32 Netscape Layer Challenge
Steve pushes back on Benedict's historical comparison of PC operating systems versus smartphones, forcefully arguing that Netscape served as the actual platform layer on PCs.
Hardest push from the host ▶ 14:10 Rejecting App-Centric Indoor LocationBenedict rejects the premise that indoor location beacon adoption will come through individual retail apps, pointing out consumer app fatigue and insisting meta-layers will bypass standalone apps.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 4:15 GPS Physics and Building PenetrationSteve educates Benedict on the physical layer constraints of the internet stack, explaining why GPS signals cannot penetrate building walls regardless of Moore's Law progression.
The host holds their own ▶ 5:01 Historical Carrier Disruption AnalysisBenedict demonstrates deep industry authority by detailing how Apple bypassed telecom carrier dominance by ignoring physical layer optimizations and treating cellular as simple Wi-Fi, breaking AT&T's network.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The host as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The host pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Shift to Proactive Computing | 6 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Benedict frames the discussion around proactive computing and contrasting OS approaches, using Apple's motion sensors and Google Now as examples. Steve agrees and adds his perspective on predictive computing and indoor context. | |
| Physical Layer Limitations and GPS Penetration | 8 | 5 | 3 | 5 | Steve educates on the physics limitations of GPS penetration in indoor environments. Benedict counters with historical context on how Apple disrupted mobile carriers by completely ignoring the physical network layer, before pressing Steve on how to move beyond basic retail coupon use cases. | |
| Physical World as a Developer Canvas | 2 | 6 | 2 | 0 | Steve delivers an extended monologue using the PC mouse and canvas analogy to describe the physical world as a developer canvas. Benedict largely listens and lets Steve elaborate on his vision. | |
| Frictionless User Experiences and Wearable Superpowers | 7 | 2 | 1 | 3 | Benedict offers his own framing of smartphones as wearable 'superpowers' rather than mere remote controls, illustrating with a personal narrative of navigating NYC via Apple Watch. Steve acknowledges familiarity with Benedict's thesis. | |
| Developer Requirements and Indoor Location Challenges | 1 | 6 | 2 | 0 | Steve explains developer requirements for indoor coordinates and critiques Apple and Google for lack of indoor mapping updates at their developer conferences. Benedict does not intervene. | |
| OS Context Layers vs. Standalone Apps | 7 | 2 | 2 | 6 | Benedict pushes back on the app-centric model, arguing that users will not download dedicated apps for every store. He presents his thesis that OS context layers (Google Now, Siri/Proactive) solve this chicken-and-egg problem by serving information without requiring app downloads. | |
| Smartphone OS as the Core Internet Platform | 8 | 3 | 3 | 4 | Steve interjects to argue that Netscape was the primary platform layer on PCs. Benedict integrates this challenge into his analysis, explaining how smartphone operating systems moved the services platform down into the OS layer. | |
| Real-World Spatial Intelligence and Mapping Ground Truth | 7 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Benedict summarizes the discussion by asserting that location data acts as 'PageRank for the real world,' citing corporate bidding for Nokia Here maps and Apple's mapping car fleet. Steve agrees and reinforces the vision. |
Statements from this episode (14)
Evans: Computers should never ask questions they can calculate themselves
“A computer should never ask a question. It should be able to work out the answer to.”
Cheney: Mobile devices could become proactive 'first brains' for users
“The phone the watch and these devices, right, it's now an extension of us as a human being. So to some extent we think about this as like it could become the first brain. It could be something that it decides what's going on before you sort of tell it to.”
Cheney: Mobile tech lacks indoor contextual intelligence despite 80% indoor time
“There's a missing link there where there's still no layer of context in physical and indoor environments, which is where we spend, what, 80% of our time?”
Evans: Apple and Google approach context-aware computing from opposite directions
“Apple and Google are both kind of climbing the mountain. This is a thing I'm probably saying too often, but they're kind of climbing the mountain from the opposite side. So, on the one hand, you have all of these sensors, and you have beacons, which of course …”
Steve Cheney: GPS signals will not penetrate building walls by 2024
“In five years, I can guarantee you that the phone will still not understand it's in the building because of a new GPS signal that can now penetrate walls. It will not physically happen.”
Evans: Apple disrupted mobile by treating cellular networks as transparent data pipes
“One of the things that allowed Apple to disrupt everything was by saying, no, no, no, no, it's just a piece of wire, and we ignore it completely. We make zero effort to optimize bandwidth, and, you know, it's kind of an overstatement, but we just completely ig…”
Evans: Bluetooth beacons enable indoor location tracking within six inches
“The interesting thing about beacons is they give you this way of digging in and actually saying, actually, you know, you can know exactly where the phone is inside the store or inside the building... We've now got this kind of latent technology, it's almost as…”
Cheney: Starbucks will be entirely barista-less by 2024
“I would likely suggest that Starbucks will be like barista-less in five years.”
Evans: Removing friction transforms painful capabilities into ordinary daily habits
“And when the friction goes, suddenly the UX changes, and things that were possible but a pain become completely ordinary, and you just do them all the time.”
Cheney: Indoor location progress is stalled because calibrating venues is extremely difficult
“And a lot of this comes down to, it's just super challenging to calibrate an indoor venue.”
Evans: Consumers resist retail apps because companies overvalue their own importance
“You are the most important thing in a corporation's life, but the corporation is not the most important thing in your life. And so they want you to have the app, but that doesn't mean you want the app.”
Evans: OS Context Layers Bypass Mobile's App-Installation Bottleneck
“That's how you solve the binary problem of the app is installed or it's not installed, because you've got this intermediate layer where content can show up that doesn't have to be the app.”