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Jan 2, 2019 · 25m · a16z

a16z Podcast | A Whirlwind Tour of Policy Issues in Tech

Mike Masnick · 11m spoken Julie Samuels · 7m spoken Sonal Chokshi · 5m spoken
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In this episode of the a16z podcast, host Sonal Chokshi sits down with policy experts Julie Samuels and Mike Masnick to explore how tech startups navigate government regulation, public mobilization, and software patent reform.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The host holds 21.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

The host as informed peer 4.2 Guest teaching 2.4 Guest disagreement 2.0 The host pushing back 2.8
05100:0010:0020:001:01–6:32 · The host as informed peer 3/10 Why Technology and Policy Are Intertwined Today Sonal sets the stage for the discussion on tech policy and asks the guests to define acronyms like SOPA for the audience. The guests collaboratively explain how tech growth and public activism stopped bills like SOPA.6:32–10:20 · The host as informed peer 4/10 Consumer Impact and Business Disputes in Regulatory Fights Sonal references a previous interview with Zenefits founder Parker Conrad to contextualize regulatory fights. The guests discuss consumer awareness in policy battles using examples like Uber and ADP.10:20–15:53 · The host as informed peer 4/10 Finding a 'Third Way' Beyond Traditional Lobbying Sonal presses Mike on why adopting legacy lobbying tactics would mean tech has failed. The guests outline a middle path between total political avoidance and traditional DC lobbying.15:53–20:12 · The host as informed peer 4/10 Lightning Round: The Software Patent Problem In a lightning round on software patents, Julie contrasts software patent volumes with pharmaceuticals. Mike mildly dissents, arguing that patents do not work well in any industry.20:12–25:39 · The host as informed peer 6/10 Measuring Innovation, Patent Inflation, and Alternatives Sonal directly challenges Julie's claim that Silicon Valley has a dangerous patent-hoarding culture, arguing modern engineers do not care about patents. Sonal also highlights network effects as superior competitive moats.1:01–6:32 · Guest teaching 3/10 Why Technology and Policy Are Intertwined Today Sonal sets the stage for the discussion on tech policy and asks the guests to define acronyms like SOPA for the audience. The guests collaboratively explain how tech growth and public activism stopped bills like SOPA.6:32–10:20 · Guest teaching 2/10 Consumer Impact and Business Disputes in Regulatory Fights Sonal references a previous interview with Zenefits founder Parker Conrad to contextualize regulatory fights. The guests discuss consumer awareness in policy battles using examples like Uber and ADP.10:20–15:53 · Guest teaching 2/10 Finding a 'Third Way' Beyond Traditional Lobbying Sonal presses Mike on why adopting legacy lobbying tactics would mean tech has failed. The guests outline a middle path between total political avoidance and traditional DC lobbying.15:53–20:12 · Guest teaching 3/10 Lightning Round: The Software Patent Problem In a lightning round on software patents, Julie contrasts software patent volumes with pharmaceuticals. Mike mildly dissents, arguing that patents do not work well in any industry.20:12–25:39 · Guest teaching 2/10 Measuring Innovation, Patent Inflation, and Alternatives Sonal directly challenges Julie's claim that Silicon Valley has a dangerous patent-hoarding culture, arguing modern engineers do not care about patents. Sonal also highlights network effects as superior competitive moats.1:01–6:32 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Why Technology and Policy Are Intertwined Today Sonal sets the stage for the discussion on tech policy and asks the guests to define acronyms like SOPA for the audience. The guests collaboratively explain how tech growth and public activism stopped bills like SOPA.6:32–10:20 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Consumer Impact and Business Disputes in Regulatory Fights Sonal references a previous interview with Zenefits founder Parker Conrad to contextualize regulatory fights. The guests discuss consumer awareness in policy battles using examples like Uber and ADP.10:20–15:53 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Finding a 'Third Way' Beyond Traditional Lobbying Sonal presses Mike on why adopting legacy lobbying tactics would mean tech has failed. The guests outline a middle path between total political avoidance and traditional DC lobbying.15:53–20:12 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Lightning Round: The Software Patent Problem In a lightning round on software patents, Julie contrasts software patent volumes with pharmaceuticals. Mike mildly dissents, arguing that patents do not work well in any industry.20:12–25:39 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Measuring Innovation, Patent Inflation, and Alternatives Sonal directly challenges Julie's claim that Silicon Valley has a dangerous patent-hoarding culture, arguing modern engineers do not care about patents. Sonal also highlights network effects as superior competitive moats.1:01–6:32 · The host pushing back 1/10 Why Technology and Policy Are Intertwined Today Sonal sets the stage for the discussion on tech policy and asks the guests to define acronyms like SOPA for the audience. The guests collaboratively explain how tech growth and public activism stopped bills like SOPA.6:32–10:20 · The host pushing back 2/10 Consumer Impact and Business Disputes in Regulatory Fights Sonal references a previous interview with Zenefits founder Parker Conrad to contextualize regulatory fights. The guests discuss consumer awareness in policy battles using examples like Uber and ADP.10:20–15:53 · The host pushing back 3/10 Finding a 'Third Way' Beyond Traditional Lobbying Sonal presses Mike on why adopting legacy lobbying tactics would mean tech has failed. The guests outline a middle path between total political avoidance and traditional DC lobbying.15:53–20:12 · The host pushing back 2/10 Lightning Round: The Software Patent Problem In a lightning round on software patents, Julie contrasts software patent volumes with pharmaceuticals. Mike mildly dissents, arguing that patents do not work well in any industry.20:12–25:39 · The host pushing back 6/10 Measuring Innovation, Patent Inflation, and Alternatives Sonal directly challenges Julie's claim that Silicon Valley has a dangerous patent-hoarding culture, arguing modern engineers do not care about patents. Sonal also highlights network effects as superior competitive moats.

speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · the host 51% · guest 49%0:00 · the host 51% · guest 49%3:00 · the host 12.6% · guest 87.4%3:00 · the host 12.6% · guest 87.4%6:00 · the host 22.4% · guest 77.6%6:00 · the host 22.4% · guest 77.6%9:00 · the host 18.3% · guest 81.7%9:00 · the host 18.3% · guest 81.7%12:00 · the host 13.7% · guest 86.3%12:00 · the host 13.7% · guest 86.3%15:00 · the host 21.2% · guest 78.8%15:00 · the host 21.2% · guest 78.8%18:00 · the host 12.9% · guest 87.1%18:00 · the host 12.9% · guest 87.1%21:00 · the host 19.3% · guest 80.7%21:00 · the host 19.3% · guest 80.7%24:00 · the host 23% · guest 77%24:00 · the host 23% · guest 77%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 18:07 Mike dissents on pharma patent efficacy

Mike explicitly dissents from Julie's premise that patents work well for pharmaceuticals, arguing that the patent system is broken across all industries.

 Hardest push from the host ▶ 22:40 Sonal rejects Julie's claim about Valley patent culture

Sonal directly rejects Julie's assertion that Silicon Valley fosters a dangerous patent-hoarding culture, arguing that modern engineers care little about patents.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:29 Julie contrasts software and pharma patent density

Julie provides clear industry data explaining that a smartphone involves 250,000 patents compared to 30 for a typical drug, demonstrating why software patents create unique friction.

 The host holds their own ▶ 23:22 Sonal explains network effects as alternative moats

Sonal demonstrates domain knowledge by pushing back against investor patent demands and pointing to network effects as the true competitive moat for software startups.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicThe host as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementThe host pushing backWhy
Why Technology and Policy Are Intertwined Today 3311 Sonal sets the stage for the discussion on tech policy and asks the guests to define acronyms like SOPA for the audience. The guests collaboratively explain how tech growth and public activism stopped bills like SOPA.
Consumer Impact and Business Disputes in Regulatory Fights 4212 Sonal references a previous interview with Zenefits founder Parker Conrad to contextualize regulatory fights. The guests discuss consumer awareness in policy battles using examples like Uber and ADP.
Finding a 'Third Way' Beyond Traditional Lobbying 4223 Sonal presses Mike on why adopting legacy lobbying tactics would mean tech has failed. The guests outline a middle path between total political avoidance and traditional DC lobbying.
Lightning Round: The Software Patent Problem 4332 In a lightning round on software patents, Julie contrasts software patent volumes with pharmaceuticals. Mike mildly dissents, arguing that patents do not work well in any industry.
Measuring Innovation, Patent Inflation, and Alternatives 6236 Sonal directly challenges Julie's claim that Silicon Valley has a dangerous patent-hoarding culture, arguing modern engineers do not care about patents. Sonal also highlights network effects as superior competitive moats.

Statements from this episode (13)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Julie Samuels: Tech companies no longer fly under government radar due to scale
“Tech companies are getting a lot bigger, so they're not flying under the radar of government anymore.”
Julie Samuels Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 1:24
Insight
Julie Samuels: Regulation is unavoidable because every business is now a tech company
“In a lot of ways, every company is a tech company and everyone uses tech. And so policy, regulation legislation, like all of these things are unavoidable.”
Julie Samuels Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 1:38
Assertion Supported
Samuels: Four Million People Contacted Government During 2015 Net Neutrality Debate
“And then we had the net neutrality fight earlier this year, but again, it was a time when the users, when individuals, four million individuals reached out to make their voice heard on that.”
Julie Samuels Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 4:01
Assertion Supported
Samuels: Zenefits ultimately prevailed in regulatory battle against Utah
“When you see those kinds of battles with Zenefits and Utah and Zenefits. Ultimately prevailed.”
Julie Samuels Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 9:05
Opinion
Masnick: Adopting traditional corporate lobbying would mark a tech industry failure
“I think, you know, one of the things, you know, if it turns out that the tech industry, that the answer for them on policy questions is to build up a giant lobbying system, Set up an apparatus in the nature of like the telcos and the pharmaceuticals and a numb…”
Mike Masnick Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 11:49
Opinion
Samuels: Tech startup community cares about candidates' ideas, not political party
“This community is not, ah, kind of wedded to traditional political parties in the way that a lot of people are. Like, I really believe that most people you meet in this tech community, particularly in the startup community, are looking for the best ideas from …”
Julie Samuels Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 14:45
Assertion Partly supported
Samuels: Smartphones touch 250,000 patents while drugs touch only 30-40
“The average smartphone is covered by 250,000 patents. The average drug by 30 or 40 patents.”
Julie Samuels Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 17:15
Opinion
Masnick: Independent invention defense would eliminate most patent system issues
“I think you would wipe out so many of the problems of the patent system if you had a real independent invention defense”
Mike Masnick Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 19:18
Insight
Chokshi: The best tech companies are founded in crowded markets
“And the best companies were actually started in spaces where it was very crowded.”
Sonal Chokshi Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 20:06
Assertion Supported
China reduced prison sentences for inmates who filed patents
“China was incentivizing people in their prisons that they would give them shorter prison sentences if they were able to file patents.”
Mike Masnick Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 21:09
Opinion
Samuels: Patent pressure in Silicon Valley produces weak patents exploited by bad actors
“I think it's actually led to a really dangerous culture in the Valley and in tech companies in general, where there's this pressure to get as many patents as possible, as quickly as possible. And then what you end up with is a bunch of really crappy patents an…”
Julie Samuels Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 22:20
Insight
Masnick: Startups prioritizing early patent downside protection are making a mistake
“The only thing that patents really do is protect you on the downside. And if you're protecting on the downside at the beginning, you've, again, I think you've just done something wrong.”
Mike Masnick Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 23:47
Opinion
Masnick: Having no patent system would be better than the current system
“I might feel pretty strongly that no patent system would probably be better than the patent system that we have today.”
Mike Masnick Jan 2, 2019 ▶ 24:53
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