The Exchanges

Q Not at all. This is a very special 20 Sales episode, and I want to start with a little bit of context. So tell me, how did you make your way into the world of sales? How did you make your way into the world of solutions, engineering, and most recently, you know, end up at the wonder that is rippling?

A Sure. So long story short, I started, uh, university with the idea that, uh, I was going to complete a computer science degree, uh, because it was around, it was 1999, right before the bubble burst, and, uh, that was the best way or the best path to making great money. Halfway through it, I realized I didn't want to spend all my time in a lab because that was most of the, you know, initial course for, for the computer science degree. I pivoted and said, I'm going to be a lawyer. So I did political science instead, but you never got away from technology. I always loved the intersection of business and technology. And frankly, I sort of stumbled into technology sales. I started a company in college. I'd had no idea what I was doing, but it was sort of on like the business and technology side. I worked for a company that got me to San Francisco. I Luckily got a job at Salesforce. I knew nothing about the company, knew nothing about the job, was just happy to get paid a little bit more than what I was paid previously. And, uh, again, long story short, I'm in a training room. I started my job at Salesforce. I was like a premier support person basically. So I had a set of accounts. I was the Salesforce expert, helped them set up their Salesforce instance and manage it. On one, one side of the room, there were the technical support people like myself. On the other side of the room, th…

AI assessment note: “I sort of stumbled into technology sales. I started a company in college.”

Q When should we hire our first? You know, often we hear about kind of hiring the first sales rep and doing it two by two. When do we hire the first SE?

A It depends on the sales process, of course, and how technical the product, because, you know, as I mentioned, like you may have a product that you, an AE can't sell it without some sort of technical expertise, so that would be very early on. But I would say on average across a wide variety of products, when you get to about like five to seven reps, Because, you know, you're starting your first sales team. You probably, you know, need to hire more capable multifaceted AEs for the first five, but then you get to a point where, you know, they can't be handling all of the demos and handling all of the follow-up and handling all of the technical details and solutioning. You're gonna achieve scale by adding another sort of central resource at like a five to one ratio, looking at scale beyond and handle some of the back office stuff as well. Um, and a great example, I joined a company called Get Satisfaction long ago. Uh, I was the first SE, and I think we had about five or seven reps or so.

AI assessment note: “when you get to about like five to seven reps”

Q of their comp is based around, you know, closing customers and closing dollars. When you have an SE in the room, it makes their life a lot easier, and it takes a lot of weight off them. How does that impact comp for sales reps? And does that mean the comp is then in the hands of the SE? How does comp change when incorporating an SE into the process?

A Well, if, uh, you're going to invest in SE resources, you get to have larger quotas for the AEs, for sure. Because the idea is, is you have to believe that by adding additional resources to the equation, that they'll be able to execute On a much larger quota at the same rate with additional SE resources. And the SEs, you know, from an SE comp perspective, I believe should always have a variable component. You want them to have some skin in the game, but there's less risk involved. So, you know, typically you've got the AE was fifty-fifty, uh, you know, 50 base, 50 variable, and the SE in an ideal world is like seventy-thirty. Um, and you want the SE, in my opinion, to have as much skin in the game As possible and be connected to the same number as the sales executive, because they need to have a shared destiny and they need to be considered salespeople as well, in my opinion.

AI assessment note: “you get to have larger quotas for the AEs, for sure”

Q What are the biggest red flags I should look out for in the first three to six months of the SE starting? What are the signs where you're like, ugh, it's not working?

A If they can't work with their AEs, that's red flag number one. If they're, you know, sometimes you get folks with like a deep technical background who, uh, don't have a tolerance for salespeople and, uh, are running into personal conflict or professional conflict. I mean, that's red flag number one. If, if that's not working, it's never going to work. It doesn't matter how smart the person is. Red flag number two is that, you know, especially in early stage companies, The person that you hire has to be an absolute self-starter and somebody who's both a builder and willing to work on deals. Um, and I remember my first job at, uh, as the, the loan SE at Get Satisfaction was, uh, I was building the demo environments. I was building all of the decks. I was working on deals. I was working with business development. Like you just have to be really upfront in describing that that's what the job's about and people have to be excited about if they aren't willing to participate in all those activities and they're not going to work out.

AI assessment note: “If they can't work with their AEs, that's red flag number one.”

Q of their comp is based around, you know, closing customers and closing dollars. When you have an SE in the room, it makes their life a lot easier, and it takes a lot of weight off them. How does that impact comp for sales reps? And does that mean the comp is then in the hands of the SE? How does comp change when incorporating an SE into the process?

A Well, if, uh, you're going to invest in SE resources, you get to have larger quotas for the AEs, for sure. Because the idea is, is you have to believe that by adding additional resources to the equation, that they'll be able to execute On a much larger quota at the same rate with additional SE resources. And the SEs, you know, from an SE comp perspective, I believe should always have a variable component. You want them to have some skin in the game, but there's less risk involved. So, you know, typically you've got the AE was fifty-fifty, uh, you know, 50 base, 50 variable, and the SE in an ideal world is like seventy-thirty. Um, and you want the SE, in my opinion, to have as much skin in the game As possible and be connected to the same number as the sales executive, because they need to have a shared destiny and they need to be considered salespeople as well, in my opinion.

AI assessment note: “you get to have larger quotas for the AEs, for sure.”

Q When should we hire our first? You know, often we hear about kind of hiring the first sales rep and doing it two by two. When do we hire the first SE?

A It depends on the sales process, of course, and how technical the product, because, you know, as I mentioned, like you may have a product that you, an AE can't sell it without some sort of technical expertise, so that would be very early on. But I would say on average across a wide variety of products, when you get to about like five to seven reps, Because, you know, you're starting your first sales team. You probably, you know, need to hire more capable multifaceted AEs for the first five, but then you get to a point where, you know, they can't be handling all of the demos and handling all of the follow-up and handling all of the technical details and solutioning. You're gonna achieve scale by adding another sort of central resource at like a five to one ratio, looking at scale beyond and handle some of the back office stuff as well. Um, and a great example, I joined a company called Get Satisfaction long ago. Uh, I was the first SE, and I think we had about five or seven reps or so.

AI assessment note: “on average across a wide variety of products, when you get to about like five to seven reps”

Q much more of the sales funnel where bluntly the prospect knows that they want to buy rippling very quickly in the process because they've been sold the content, the story, the vision before they've ever engaged with a rep. Do you agree with me in terms of this blurring of sales and marketing and how do we see the future of sales as a result of that complete blurring actually?

A Yeah, no, it's a really good point. And that's where I see, especially in my world where the solutions engineering function was predominantly like a really guarded function or resource where you couldn't even talk to somebody on my team, 10 years ago, unless you've gone through like an hour discovery call and you've been well-qualified. Uh, we're starting to encroach earlier in the process and that's okay. Like we want our team to develop content that will be consumed earlier in the process. So we're creating like things like short form videos and demo vignettes, um, and slides that are easier to consume in new formats in a way that helps the customer educate themselves earlier in that process. So by the time they get to us, we're very well aligned on what they're trying to do, what they're trying to accomplish. Uh, it makes our jobs easier, more precise and more valuable, and it makes the buying experience much more, uh, enjoyable as well and effective.

AI assessment note: “helps the customer educate themselves earlier in that process”

Q When you're evaluating SE talent in the interview process, when you review your own process, are there common questions that you ask? Are there common ways that you try to identify talent or characteristics?

A Yeah. I mean, uh, over time we've developed like a competency-based hiring model, which I think is really important, especially, you know, as you know, you can't rely on resumes, uh, as you know, the only proxy for success, as we all know, and it doesn't matter what company somebody came from. We like to have them really talk through experiences where they have demonstrated value. If they're early in their career, they may not have many of those examples, but the way they sort of are, can articulate how they approach Learning about something, taking that information and putting it into sort of presentation form and articulating the value of something, be it a, you know, an app on their phone or a piece of software that they've supported in the past. That can be really telling about whether or not they are, uh, capable and have the competencies to be really successful in the role. And then another component that's critical, especially in this role, is that it doesn't matter how smart or good of a presenter, Or how technical an SE is. If they can't work with their AE counterparts, they're never going to be successful. So we really want to make sure that they have a history of collaborating with people of all different types, and that's really important.

AI assessment note: “over time we've developed like a competency-based hiring model”

Q How do you think about the challenge of multiple buyers? And what I mean by that is, especially today, we're seeing CFOs become a lot more involved in buying decisions across every different software product that their teams are buying. How do you think about the challenge of incorporating suddenly multiple different buyers, including the CFO?

A Yeah, I mean, I think it is a healthy forcing function. Like, we're all scared about the current macroeconomic climate, but You know, we also are aware that this is, you know, this is where the greatest companies emerge and it creates some real business fitness, I think, particularly in sales. Like now we're forced to really think about how we're going to sell this if a CFO is scrutinizing every detail. Having the CFO involved is always tough, but it forces you to think about true like ROI, dollarized ROI, which is not always easy, especially for early stage founders. That should be an exercise that they go through. Like if you had a CFO, uh, come into this conversation and had to justify the spend on this amongst all the other software that they're purchasing or investing in, how would you do it? So that same exercise where you would like identify a primary buyer, you could identify, you can sort of do the same thing for every potential buyer or influencer as a part of the process. Um, and if that's the case, it's something that's required and necessary.

AI assessment note: “forces you to think about true like ROI, dollarized ROI”

Q What are the biggest red flags I should look out for in the first three to six months of the SE starting? What are the signs where you're like, ugh, it's not working?

A If they can't work with their AEs, that's red flag number one. If they're, you know, sometimes you get folks with like a deep technical background who, uh, don't have a tolerance for salespeople and, uh, are running into personal conflict or professional conflict. I mean, that's red flag number one. If, if that's not working, it's never going to work. It doesn't matter how smart the person is. Red flag number two is that, you know, especially in early stage companies, The person that you hire has to be an absolute self-starter and somebody who's both a builder and willing to work on deals. Um, and I remember my first job at, uh, as the, the loan SE at Get Satisfaction was, uh, I was building the demo environments. I was building all of the decks. I was working on deals. I was working with business development. Like you just have to be really upfront in describing that that's what the job's about and people have to be excited about if they aren't willing to participate in all those activities and they're not going to work out.

AI assessment note: “If they can't work with their AEs, that's red flag number one.”

Q Is there really a solution to opening up you and your colleagues so earlier in the process? Because, Bluntly, you are a much more valuable resource that is constrained in terms of availability. As, if I'm your CEO, I couldn't put you front and center or much more available because we don't have the resources or bandwidth.

A Yeah, and that's where, especially now, we have to think about scale, and, uh, we think about, like, what we do on a weekly basis, how we're engaging with customers, And how we might, uh, productize some of those engagements in a way that can be scaled earlier in the process. So it's not us physically getting on a call with the customer earlier. It's us creating content and messaging and solution material that can be leveraged earlier in a sales process. And we still get the benefit of a sales engineer earlier, and it feels more tailored and targeted, and it is, it's for the benefit of the customer, but we don't have to get involved directly when we do it at scale.

AI assessment note: “It's us creating content and messaging and solution material that can be leveraged earlier”

Q times. You've worked with and mentored many early stage tech companies and startups. In terms of sales and product market fit, you said before to me that in sales and product market fit, it isn't as hard as many technical founders make it. Naturally, I was incredibly inquisitive, but also going, tell me more. So tell me more, Zach. Why isn't it as hard as many technical founders make it?

A Yeah, it always, you know, boggles my mind. I think, and I was thinking about this this morning as well. I think it's because the, the process of starting a company, developing a product is, is a very personal journey, right? You're really wrapped up in yourself, how it's going to impact your life, your friends, your family, and how this company is going to change your world. So you're thinking about yourself all the time, and you sometimes don't take the time to empathize with the actual customers that you're selling the solution to. So when I talk to a lot of early stage founders, they have a really great idea that's been validated by other technical co-founders who have mentored them. The technology is sound. Um, they have been validated by investors who are excited at the potential of working with a really smart person, but they haven't taken the time. And it really, it doesn't take much time to sit down and think, who is the actual customer? Let me find an actual person, even on just LinkedIn that would buy this. Who is that person? What is their role? What do they care about? Uh, what are their pains and challenges that they have, uh, in their job and in life? And, and sort of map that out in a way that help you describe what product market fit might look like for a particular ideal customer profile. And there's almost no time spent on that early in, in, um, company build…

AI assessment note: “it doesn't take much time to sit down and think, who is the actual customer?”

Q Can you, can you, can you talk to me about it and how we should use it?

A It's, uh, it's just, it's a really empathetic exercise that anybody can walk through where they identify who their customer is as an individual and a business person, uh, the pains that that customer has, uh, the gains your product potentially could provide. And you essentially You, you connect your potential customer with your product and solution, and essentially just try to map what your solution does to the outcomes that your customer is trying to achieve. That's a vast oversimplification there, but it is a really powerful exercise to walk through. And you imagine the power if you actually have that sort of visual in your head as you're developing your product and talking to customers and talking to investors, makes things a lot easier.

AI assessment note: “map what your solution does to the outcomes that your customer is trying to achieve”

Q ask, in terms of demonstrating the craft, the thing I find really hard is, if they demonstrate a product that you don't know so well, you'll just be easier to impress, but if you get them to demonstrate your product, you know it so well, you'll automatically think less of them. How do you get them to demonstrate their product in a neutral environment where they have a fair chance?

A That's an age-old question, Harry. It's, it's, uh, I debate that, like, every year. Ultimately, where I stand today is you get them to demonstrate your product, because You know, and understand the value prop better than anybody. Like you understand the target customer and you just have to, um, do so with the understanding that it's not going to be the best demo of your product that you've ever seen, but you have to understand how to measure for competency or evaluate for competency as it relates to that. So what we do and what I've done in the past is you give them sort of, uh, um, a stripped down scenario, something that would be easy for any, you know, technologist to grok and to understand. But helps them demonstrate whether or not they can connect value to what your product does. And I think it, it, it can be structured in a way that's fair to anybody and fair to the right candidate.

AI assessment note: “where I stand today is you get them to demonstrate your product”

Q Do you ever get problems with, like, traditional sales reps in terms of people thinking, stepping on their toes, feeling a little bit of encroachment in terms of their role and how SEs play into it?

A Yes. Yeah, uh, especially when you hire the first one, or especially at a company that has grown up from, you know, very, very quickly. You've had a lot of capable reps who have done All of what SEs are doing and perhaps more, um, because they had to, they didn't have those resources in the past. And it's something that just takes some time to work out of. They have to, you have to help with the, help those folks understand the value of having an additional resource and also understand the value of team selling. Because even if one thing that I think is important to understand about SEs and team selling in general, but even if both people can do exactly the same thing, there's a lot of value in having just two people on a call because A prospect or customer is going to answer questions differently coming from an SE than they would from an account executive, because they, they, they have sort of this, this, this perception that the account executive just wants to, uh, get them to close the deal, and the A, the SE truly cares about the business, which is true, but it's just this, this dynamic that continues to play out.

AI assessment note: “Yes. Yeah, uh, especially when you hire the first one”

Q You've seen and reviewed many, many different hiring processes for many different sales teams and sales people. When you review them now, what are some of the biggest lessons learned from hiring hundreds of sales pros across your career now?

A I think the biggest lessons learned is I think as you're thinking about building your own sales process at every stage, you should feel like you're receiving data and information on that candidate. It's going to help you make a decision one way or the other. And especially as you get to the end of that process, however you design the presentation should be done in a way that is going to help you make an objective decision on the candidate. I say that because where I've seen it fail or fall down as we go through this process that we've designed for probably our own benefit and for the benefit of the candidate feeling like they're going through a professional process with a company. But at the end of the process, we're basically just justifying our own bias. Um, we're just like, oh yeah, you know, I kind of like that person. They come from Salesforce. Let's hire them. And it didn't matter how they performed or what they did. And that happens all the time, I think. And I think it's really critical for you to say, be really objective at the end of the process and be able to like surface those, uh, any objections or, or conflict at the end to make a decision effectively.

AI assessment note: “the biggest lessons learned is I think as you're thinking about building your own sales process”

Q Where, where does the AE's role end and the SE's role end when it comes to actually closing the deal? So they bring the credibility, the product now, the technical ability. Do they then kind of hand back to the AE to close? Do they close? How, how does that closing process work with SE's involved?

A I believe that the, you know, it is the AE's responsibility to close. So we have the concept of like a solution win that we work towards as SE's. And our job is to ensure that the technology aligns to what the customer is trying to accomplish from a business perspective, and depending on the product or service you offer, there are certain check boxes that you just need to check. As evaluations, sometimes that's like a security questionnaire that everybody has to fill out, or they have to have received the, you know, security presentation, and we would have to ensure that they have, you know, all the right requirements and technical requirements, that they are a fit for the solution or product that we, uh, or service that we provide. And then it is the AE's responsibility to close.

AI assessment note: “it is the AE's responsibility to close. So we have the concept of like a solution win”

Q Is there really a solution to opening up you and your colleagues so earlier in the process? Because, Bluntly, you are a much more valuable resource that is constrained in terms of availability. As, if I'm your CEO, I couldn't put you front and center or much more available because we don't have the resources or bandwidth.

A Yeah, and that's where, especially now, we have to think about scale, and, uh, we think about, like, what we do on a weekly basis, how we're engaging with customers, And how we might, uh, productize some of those engagements in a way that can be scaled earlier in the process. So it's not us physically getting on a call with the customer earlier. It's us creating content and messaging and solution material that can be leveraged earlier in a sales process. And we still get the benefit of a sales engineer earlier, and it feels more tailored and targeted, and it is, it's for the benefit of the customer, but we don't have to get involved directly when we do it at scale.

AI assessment note: “It's us creating content and messaging and solution material that can be leveraged earlier”

Q Okay, so if we use that as a start point, we now know where SEs sit in the process. We know when to hire them. I need to hire them now. I got five to seven, and you're gonna help me hire my first. Thank you so much. How do I structure the hiring process for an SE?

A Uh, it's pretty simple. Like, I, I believe that, uh, you need to have, you know, a process that helps you get to know that person, of course, as well. There was something that we did at Slack. Which we haven't yet implemented at Rippling. I'm not sure if we will, uh, which is, uh, sort of a chronological interview. And it seems like it's a lot of time to spend, but we would spend an hour and a half going through a person's background job by job to understand their motivations, why they joined a company and why they left the company. You know, especially if you're in a lot of interviews, it's really difficult to get to know somebody and really get to know their motivations and the work they've done and whether or not Uh, you know, their resume is actually reflective of the impact that they've had over time. Um, so that was a really helpful exercise. That's not just unique to SEs, but that's something we did and I thought it was really effective and helped us get to know and hire really great people from basically zero to 200 across the board. And then you also want to have an opportunity for the demonstrate the craft because there's very much like part art and science in this role. Like you, deep expertise is important, but what's also important and what makes SEs the most successful is if They also are great presenters and can articulate value, so you need to give them an oppor…

AI assessment note: “sort of a chronological interview... And then you also want to have an opportunity for the demonstrate the craft”

Q You've seen and reviewed many, many different hiring processes for many different sales teams and sales people. When you review them now, what are some of the biggest lessons learned from hiring hundreds of sales pros across your career now?

A I think the biggest lessons learned is I think as you're thinking about building your own sales process at every stage, you should feel like you're receiving data and information on that candidate. It's going to help you make a decision one way or the other. And especially as you get to the end of that process, however you design the presentation should be done in a way that is going to help you make an objective decision on the candidate. I say that because where I've seen it fail or fall down as we go through this process that we've designed for probably our own benefit and for the benefit of the candidate feeling like they're going through a professional process with a company. But at the end of the process, we're basically just justifying our own bias. Um, we're just like, oh yeah, you know, I kind of like that person. They come from Salesforce. Let's hire them. And it didn't matter how they performed or what they did. And that happens all the time, I think. And I think it's really critical for you to say, be really objective at the end of the process and be able to like surface those, uh, any objections or, or conflict at the end to make a decision effectively.

AI assessment note: “the biggest lessons learned is I think as you're thinking about building your own sales process”

Q much more of the sales funnel where bluntly the prospect knows that they want to buy rippling very quickly in the process because they've been sold the content, the story, the vision before they've ever engaged with a rep. Do you agree with me in terms of this blurring of sales and marketing and how do we see the future of sales as a result of that complete blurring actually?

A Yeah, no, it's a really good point. And that's where I see, especially in my world where the solutions engineering function was predominantly like a really guarded function or resource where you couldn't even talk to somebody on my team, 10 years ago, unless you've gone through like an hour discovery call and you've been well-qualified. Uh, we're starting to encroach earlier in the process and that's okay. Like we want our team to develop content that will be consumed earlier in the process. So we're creating like things like short form videos and demo vignettes, um, and slides that are easier to consume in new formats in a way that helps the customer educate themselves earlier in that process. So by the time they get to us, we're very well aligned on what they're trying to do, what they're trying to accomplish. Uh, it makes our jobs easier, more precise and more valuable, and it makes the buying experience much more, uh, enjoyable as well and effective.

AI assessment note: “we want our team to develop content that will be consumed earlier in the process.”

Q times. You've worked with and mentored many early stage tech companies and startups. In terms of sales and product market fit, you said before to me that in sales and product market fit, it isn't as hard as many technical founders make it. Naturally, I was incredibly inquisitive, but also going, tell me more. So tell me more, Zach. Why isn't it as hard as many technical founders make it?

A Yeah, it always, you know, boggles my mind. I think, and I was thinking about this this morning as well. I think it's because the, the process of starting a company, developing a product is, is a very personal journey, right? You're really wrapped up in yourself, how it's going to impact your life, your friends, your family, and how this company is going to change your world. So you're thinking about yourself all the time, and you sometimes don't take the time to empathize with the actual customers that you're selling the solution to. So when I talk to a lot of early stage founders, they have a really great idea that's been validated by other technical co-founders who have mentored them. The technology is sound. Um, they have been validated by investors who are excited at the potential of working with a really smart person, but they haven't taken the time. And it really, it doesn't take much time to sit down and think, who is the actual customer? Let me find an actual person, even on just LinkedIn that would buy this. Who is that person? What is their role? What do they care about? Uh, what are their pains and challenges that they have, uh, in their job and in life? And, and sort of map that out in a way that help you describe what product market fit might look like for a particular ideal customer profile. And there's almost no time spent on that early in, in, um, company build…

AI assessment note: “it doesn't take much time to sit down and think, who is the actual customer?”

Q Can you, can you, can you talk to me about it and how we should use it?

A It's, uh, it's just, it's a really empathetic exercise that anybody can walk through where they identify who their customer is as an individual and a business person, uh, the pains that that customer has, uh, the gains your product potentially could provide. And you essentially You, you connect your potential customer with your product and solution, and essentially just try to map what your solution does to the outcomes that your customer is trying to achieve. That's a vast oversimplification there, but it is a really powerful exercise to walk through. And you imagine the power if you actually have that sort of visual in your head as you're developing your product and talking to customers and talking to investors, makes things a lot easier.

AI assessment note: “essentially just try to map what your solution does to the outcomes”

Q How do you think about the challenge of multiple buyers? And what I mean by that is, especially today, we're seeing CFOs become a lot more involved in buying decisions across every different software product that their teams are buying. How do you think about the challenge of incorporating suddenly multiple different buyers, including the CFO?

A Yeah, I mean, I think it is a healthy forcing function. Like, we're all scared about the current macroeconomic climate, but You know, we also are aware that this is, you know, this is where the greatest companies emerge and it creates some real business fitness, I think, particularly in sales. Like now we're forced to really think about how we're going to sell this if a CFO is scrutinizing every detail. Having the CFO involved is always tough, but it forces you to think about true like ROI, dollarized ROI, which is not always easy, especially for early stage founders. That should be an exercise that they go through. Like if you had a CFO, uh, come into this conversation and had to justify the spend on this amongst all the other software that they're purchasing or investing in, how would you do it? So that same exercise where you would like identify a primary buyer, you could identify, you can sort of do the same thing for every potential buyer or influencer as a part of the process. Um, and if that's the case, it's something that's required and necessary.

AI assessment note: “forces you to think about true like ROI, dollarized ROI”

Q me, when I think about incorporating this into the I, I like to think of these shows as, like, metaphorical discussions where you're an angel and an advisor to me as an early stage founder, because we have so many founders that listen. When we think about, like, solutions engineering and structuring our team today, why do we need solutions consultants, solutions engineers, fundamentally? Like, what is their need first?

A Well, there's two things. One, uh, if it's a highly technical product that requires deep expertise, Oftentimes you can't have the same person be the account executive who also is going to go to that level of depth with the customer. So there are some solutions where very, very early on you just have to have a technical expert on every call because it's that detailed and that technical product or solution. On the other hand, it's also, um, if you're competing in a market where your competing sales teams have a, a solutions engineer or consultant as part of the sales team's composition, That's when you had to think earlier about adding a solutions consultant to your team as well, because part of, uh, what we do is, you know, provide that deep expertise, solution expertise, presentation, uh, differentiation through process and approach, but also it's a competitive differentiator in how you approach a sales cycle, um, and how you appear to a customer. And if you show up and you know, there's only an AE who's trying to handle this end to end, um, and you're competing for a large, you know, ACV or dollar amount, uh, it's really difficult to compete without the right resources in place.

AI assessment note: “if it's a highly technical product that requires deep expertise”

Q ask, in terms of demonstrating the craft, the thing I find really hard is, if they demonstrate a product that you don't know so well, you'll just be easier to impress, but if you get them to demonstrate your product, you know it so well, you'll automatically think less of them. How do you get them to demonstrate their product in a neutral environment where they have a fair chance?

A That's an age-old question, Harry. It's, it's, uh, I debate that, like, every year. Ultimately, where I stand today is you get them to demonstrate your product, because You know, and understand the value prop better than anybody. Like you understand the target customer and you just have to, um, do so with the understanding that it's not going to be the best demo of your product that you've ever seen, but you have to understand how to measure for competency or evaluate for competency as it relates to that. So what we do and what I've done in the past is you give them sort of, uh, um, a stripped down scenario, something that would be easy for any, you know, technologist to grok and to understand. But helps them demonstrate whether or not they can connect value to what your product does. And I think it, it, it can be structured in a way that's fair to anybody and fair to the right candidate.

AI assessment note: “where I stand today is you get them to demonstrate your product”

Q Do you ever get problems with, like, traditional sales reps in terms of people thinking, stepping on their toes, feeling a little bit of encroachment in terms of their role and how SEs play into it?

A Yes. Yeah, uh, especially when you hire the first one, or especially at a company that has grown up from, you know, very, very quickly. You've had a lot of capable reps who have done All of what SEs are doing and perhaps more, um, because they had to, they didn't have those resources in the past. And it's something that just takes some time to work out of. They have to, you have to help with the, help those folks understand the value of having an additional resource and also understand the value of team selling. Because even if one thing that I think is important to understand about SEs and team selling in general, but even if both people can do exactly the same thing, there's a lot of value in having just two people on a call because A prospect or customer is going to answer questions differently coming from an SE than they would from an account executive, because they, they, they have sort of this, this, this perception that the account executive just wants to, uh, get them to close the deal, and the A, the SE truly cares about the business, which is true, but it's just this, this dynamic that continues to play out.

AI assessment note: “Yes. Yeah, uh, especially when you hire the first one”

Q When you're evaluating SE talent in the interview process, when you review your own process, are there common questions that you ask? Are there common ways that you try to identify talent or characteristics?

A Yeah. I mean, uh, over time we've developed like a competency-based hiring model, which I think is really important, especially, you know, as you know, you can't rely on resumes, uh, as you know, the only proxy for success, as we all know, and it doesn't matter what company somebody came from. We like to have them really talk through experiences where they have demonstrated value. If they're early in their career, they may not have many of those examples, but the way they sort of are, can articulate how they approach Learning about something, taking that information and putting it into sort of presentation form and articulating the value of something, be it a, you know, an app on their phone or a piece of software that they've supported in the past. That can be really telling about whether or not they are, uh, capable and have the competencies to be really successful in the role. And then another component that's critical, especially in this role, is that it doesn't matter how smart or good of a presenter, Or how technical an SE is. If they can't work with their AE counterparts, they're never going to be successful. So we really want to make sure that they have a history of collaborating with people of all different types, and that's really important.

AI assessment note: “we've developed like a competency-based hiring model”

Q I totally agree with you in terms of getting more and more data from every interview and instance. I do want to move to post the hiring process now. We've got this incredible SE. We're very excited to have them in our startup. I've never onboarded before, though. Fuck. What's the ideal onboarding process for SEs, and how do I structure it?

A It's, I think, pretty simple. You obviously will have some sort of product training, depending on, you know, what stage of growth you're at. When we were at Slack, we sort of built it from, from scratch. They had Uh, some well-documented like product documentation, et cetera. We use something called work ramp. Um, there are many tools like it, uh, to walk, uh, a candidate through like a six week process where basically they have some self-service training to go through. They get exposure to a lot of customer calls and they get a lot of exposure to the ideal customer profile as well. And sort of a blend of both, I think is critical. Like it can be done in a lot of different ways. I don't think it takes a number of months to, to get somebody ramped depending on the Uh, the technical depth of a product, but, and it's very easy to just to put together, you know, a product training and enablement and onboarding, customer training, enablement and onboarding, and you want them coming out, understanding and feeling confident in how to present and demonstrate the product and confident in understanding the ideal customer profile and who the buyer is.

AI assessment note: “walk a candidate through like a six week process where basically they have some self-service”

Q Where, where does the AE's role end and the SE's role end when it comes to actually closing the deal? So they bring the credibility, the product now, the technical ability. Do they then kind of hand back to the AE to close? Do they close? How, how does that closing process work with SE's involved?

A I believe that the, you know, it is the AE's responsibility to close. So we have the concept of like a solution win that we work towards as SE's. And our job is to ensure that the technology aligns to what the customer is trying to accomplish from a business perspective, and depending on the product or service you offer, there are certain check boxes that you just need to check. As evaluations, sometimes that's like a security questionnaire that everybody has to fill out, or they have to have received the, you know, security presentation, and we would have to ensure that they have, you know, all the right requirements and technical requirements, that they are a fit for the solution or product that we, uh, or service that we provide. And then it is the AE's responsibility to close.

AI assessment note: “I believe that the, you know, it is the AE's responsibility to close.”