The Exchanges

Q Can you unpack that? When you ask that, how do the best display themselves? What are the varying responses?

A And like, and to be honest, like, this is a trick, this is a trick that, that I stole from, ah, Yuri Milner. So, I was, I was having breakfast with Yuri. And I was like, hey, like, what makes you a good investor? And he was telling me like, oh, you know, when I met a founder, I asked him like, hey, what's your day like? But it's not like, oh, what, tell me two, three things. No, no, no. What time you wake up? What is the first thing you do? And then walk through the entire day, and they're like, what time you go to bed, and what are you doing in bed? And these choices that people, the choices that people make on their free time are the ones that, that really tell you who they are. And for Pedro, it's like, hey, on my free time, man, I love sitting in front of my computer and tracking the packages that iOS, uh, that the iPhones send to servers, because I really understand, like, how that architecture is done, because if I pay enough attention, then I'm, I get a chance to, like, hack it. Like, that's how he, he found, like, one of the, one of the jailbreaks that, that That, like, back in the day, he was, he was the first person to find one of the jail breaks for the iPhone, right? But he did that for, like, no reason. Like, you know, like, he didn't make money out of it. It's just like, you know, like, it's just, okay, I like going very deep on this, on this technical thing. And …

AI assessment note: “these choices that people make on their free time are the ones that really tell you”

Q excited by, you know, transitions, um, by improvements in human lives and how we won't be doing mundane tasks that we all kind of hate doing anyway. But then it's very easy to get caught up in the kind of short term. Do you think we overestimate adoption in the short term and underestimate it in the long? Or do you think this will happen much quicker than we think?

A Yeah, I think, I think there's a lot of wisdom and saying like, hey, we, we, we overestimate what we can do in a year and underestimate what we can do in 10, right? I think, I think there's a lot of truth to that. I still think in AI, you look at How much, like, three years ago, like, we didn't have, we didn't have ChatGPT, and now there's, like, close to a billion people that, that use it every month, and they have, like, a meaningful different experience, right? So I personally think that in the next, not in the next year, but in the next five years, like, lives will be meaningfully changed. So I think AI is gonna happen, like, way faster than, than people believe.

AI assessment note: “I think AI is gonna happen, like, way faster than, than people believe.”

Q I don't think it's gonna going to happen. Don't worry. That's just too funny. You can buy and hold one public company stock for 10 years. What do you buy and hold?

A Duolingo. Man, AI is gonna going to change people's lives in you know, a very, in really important ways. And I think one really important thing is, like, the way we're gonna going to learn is gonna going to be through AI teachers. And, and Duolingo, like, I think it's very sneaky. Sneaky in a good way. Like they started with like this language app, but they're making like, they're making your AI friend that teaches languages, and then they're going to teach more stuff. And, and, and Luis, the founder, like he's a, like he's a total genius. So I think, I think he's going to make a free AI tutor for everyone. That's going to be incredibly important to humanity. And it's going to be a very valuable company.

AI assessment note: “Duolingo. Man, AI is gonna going to change people's lives”

Q have that. Can we ask, when we go back to McCaw and Brex, as you said there, revenue scaling, I think Brex was 18 months to a hundred million, McCaw was 11 months. Insane. The challenge that I have is, have revenue rules broken in terms of scaling expectations? And have we lied to a generation of founders that triple, triple, double, double, and now that's just not the case?

A Yeah, I do think that I think SaaS was a moment in time where, like, rule-based investing worked really well. You know, like, you get to ten million dollars in revenue, like, you're a category winner. I think this is no longer true. So... Why? I think it's because the nature of the revenue. I think a lot of the AI revenue is experimental. And the reality is, it's now incredibly easy to take ChatGPT and say, okay, what are companies using ChatGPT for? Let's say their lawyers are using ChatGPT to write, ah, demand letters. So, okay, I'm gonna make this very thin workflow around ChatGPT, and then I'm gonna go after, like, every law firm that, that writes demand letters and say, hey, like, buy my tool. And you are going to get revenue. Like, you're gonna get, you're gonna get millions of dollars in revenue. But if that's all you're doing, it's, there's just no, like, enterprise value. Because the reality is, like, as the models get better, like, the workflow you're building becomes less valuable. So, so one task that we always do is, company comes in and pitches, first, you have revenue growth, like, it's still worth something. It's not worth what, what it was worth before. But it's like, hey, you have, you have revenue growth, okay, we should pay attention. But then the first question that we ask is, if models get a lot better, is your company worse? Or is your company better? Rig…

AI assessment note: “I think SaaS was a moment in time where, like, rule-based investing worked really well.”

Q this shift in budget from labor to technology spend, something that I just worry inherently about is like the increasing chasm between rich and poor and the inequality that comes as a result. Even if there are 5000 people in that company that's worth a trillion dollars, It could replace a trillion dollars of spend on labor. Do you share my concern and, and is that just an inevitable progression?

A 100%. What percentage of knowledge work as we know today will exist in 10 years? Like if you define work, knowledge work as work you do behind a computer, I think it's probably like one percent. You know, the thing that I worry most about is if you're college, if you're someone coming out of college, What are the things that you can do, like, if you're coming out of law school, like, what are the things that you can do that, that a model won't be able to do, like, in three years? You know, there's not gonna be that many things, and at the same time, like, companies will be more valuable because they, they're gonna reduce costs so much, so people that own companies, people that own shares will get richer, founders will get way richer, you're gonna have this, 300 dollar companies being done by very small teams. So that's a very destabilizing force. And that's something that, that is something to worry about. And I think, and people All these things are controversial, so you see these big leaders talking, like the big companies still talking about, like, oh, no, AI is not replacing people. AI is actually augmenting people's abilities, like this is bullshit, you know, like it's fully replacing people, right?

AI assessment note: “100%. What percentage of knowledge work as we know today will exist”

Q Does, like, Brett Taylor come in and pitch to partnership? Like, he's a special dude. Sierra's a special company. Does he, like, come in and be like,

A So I think, I think on Brad's, I think on Brad's case is like, I think he had dinner with the partners. It was more like a conversation than, uh, than a pitch. I think, like, Brad Taylor's case, you know, I think it's a good example. It's like, hey, the guy's so accomplished, like, he could praise from anyone, he could do whatever he wanted, but I think he valued, like, he valued the relationship with Peter and said, hey, like, I think it's gonna be valuable to, like, have you along this way, right? And because it's an equal partnership, it's like, hey, these people, they're gonna be my partners in this company, so It's like, it's like, it's a get to know you much more than like, hey, like I'm pitching you, right?

AI assessment note: “It was more like a conversation than, uh, than a pitch.”

Q Everyone thinks you join Benchmark or you join Sequoia and just deals come to you. Deals just come. Does that happen?

A So there's a lot of things that come to you, but, but the question is, are the deals that, that you want to do, are they coming to you or not? And in my, I think as you build, like, as you build your network, and like, I'm not from Silicon Valley, and frankly, like, I've been a founder for 13 years, and I've been an investor for like a year and a half, so a lot of people don't think me, don't think of me as an investor. So, so very little of what I want to do just comes inbound and sounds like, hey, go meet this company. Most of the time, it's like, you're talking to really high quality people, and you ask them like, hey, what has impressed you mostly? Or you get, you get super interested in a, in a sector, and then you say, okay, like, what are all the, we go to someone and say, hey, like, what are all the companies in the sector? And you do a little bit of homework. And then it's like, oh, okay, this is, this is an interesting company. Yeah, so I've done, I've done, so I mean, I've done four companies since I started at Benchmark. Three have been this way. And then the fourth one, the fourth one, I actually, I'm a co-founder. So I started the company with someone that, that I knew for a long time.

AI assessment note: “very little of what I want to do just comes inbound”

Q have that. Can we ask, when we go back to McCaw and Brex, as you said there, revenue scaling, I think Brex was 18 months to a hundred million, McCaw was 11 months. Insane. The challenge that I have is, have revenue rules broken in terms of scaling expectations? And have we lied to a generation of founders that triple, triple, double, double, and now that's just not the case?

A Yeah, I do think that I think SaaS was a moment in time where, like, rule-based investing worked really well. You know, like, you get to ten million dollars in revenue, like, you're a category winner. I think this is no longer true. So... Why? I think it's because the nature of the revenue. I think a lot of the AI revenue is experimental. And the reality is, it's now incredibly easy to take ChatGPT and say, okay, what are companies using ChatGPT for? Let's say their lawyers are using ChatGPT to write, ah, demand letters. So, okay, I'm gonna make this very thin workflow around ChatGPT, and then I'm gonna go after, like, every law firm that, that writes demand letters and say, hey, like, buy my tool. And you are going to get revenue. Like, you're gonna get, you're gonna get millions of dollars in revenue. But if that's all you're doing, it's, there's just no, like, enterprise value. Because the reality is, like, as the models get better, like, the workflow you're building becomes less valuable. So, so one task that we always do is, company comes in and pitches, first, you have revenue growth, like, it's still worth something. It's not worth what, what it was worth before. But it's like, hey, you have, you have revenue growth, okay, we should pay attention. But then the first question that we ask is, if models get a lot better, is your company worse? Or is your company better? Rig…

AI assessment note: “SaaS was a moment in time where, like, rule-based investing worked really well.”

Q excited by, you know, transitions, um, by improvements in human lives and how we won't be doing mundane tasks that we all kind of hate doing anyway. But then it's very easy to get caught up in the kind of short term. Do you think we overestimate adoption in the short term and underestimate it in the long? Or do you think this will happen much quicker than we think?

A Yeah, I think, I think there's a lot of wisdom and saying like, hey, we, we, we overestimate what we can do in a year and underestimate what we can do in 10, right? I think, I think there's a lot of truth to that. I still think in AI, you look at How much, like, three years ago, like, we didn't have, we didn't have ChatGPT, and now there's, like, close to a billion people that, that use it every month, and they have, like, a meaningful different experience, right? So I personally think that in the next, not in the next year, but in the next five years, like, lives will be meaningfully changed. So I think AI is gonna happen, like, way faster than, than people believe.

AI assessment note: “I think AI is gonna happen, like, way faster than, than people believe.”

Q Really? If you, I, I agree with you, but like officially the job of a board member is to, you know, have a fiduciary duty to shareholders. Fiduciary duty to shareholders is not always the same as maximizing a founder's ambition. How do you think about that?

A If you're taking a lot of, uh, decisions in isolation, it's like, oh, okay, like in this case, I believe that If we do this, like, it's gonna be better for the shareholders. But if you look at an aggregate, like your policy is, I'm gonna, I'm gonna choose the best founders, and I'm gonna trust them. And my fiduciary duty comes in at the moment where I write the check. It's like, I'm underwriting that person. It's like, hey, do I think this guy will be a good CEO? And once you're there, it's like, I'm just, I'm here to enable this guy. And like, even when I disagree with him, I'm just gonna, like, help him do what he wants to do.

AI assessment note: “my fiduciary duty comes in at the moment where I write the check.”

Q I bluntly spoke to so many people about you, there was one relationship in particular which struck me, which was when I spoke to Pedro at Brice about you, and he mentioned a number of things which just really highlighted the depth of your friendship. You invested pre-product Pre-revenue. Can you take me to that, and what that journey has taught you about investing, company trajectory, and shaped you actually?

A So the way I met Pedro is, so I was building my company in Brazil, and you know, as I said, we started, ah, we bootstrapped the business, like, we eventually grew it. Uh, to over a billion users, and there were very few people building technology companies in Brazil at the time, and then Pedro, he had a problem with a, with an investor. He was, when he was 16, he, he created his first, uh, payments company in Brazil, and turns out that he signed a, a, a deal that he shouldn't have, and he lost control of the company, and the investors made it impossible for him to capture any value. So I spent a ton of time with him, and, like, with lawyers, and saying, hey, how, how do we get out of this? And after, after, and I had no shares, like, I was just like, man, I was just, hey, this kid is so smart, like, this kid is so, so good, he deserves To succeed, right? So I really wanted him to succeed. And then after a while, like, I was like, hey, man, I'm selling, like, my mobile gaming company will sell things in the U.S., and the U.S. is a much better market. And You should just, you should just, like, let go of the company that you have, and you should go build something similar in the U.S. Uh, and so eventually he agreed to it, and so he moved to the U.S., and he started Brex, and then when he started Brex, he's like, hey, like, can you, can you invest on my seed round, and like, can y…

AI assessment note: “he moved to the U.S., and he started Brex... can you invest on my seed round”

Q Everyone thinks you join Benchmark or you join Sequoia and just deals come to you. Deals just come. Does that happen?

A So there's a lot of things that come to you, but, but the question is, are the deals that, that you want to do, are they coming to you or not? And in my, I think as you build, like, as you build your network, and like, I'm not from Silicon Valley, and frankly, like, I've been a founder for 13 years, and I've been an investor for like a year and a half, so a lot of people don't think me, don't think of me as an investor. So, so very little of what I want to do just comes inbound and sounds like, hey, go meet this company. Most of the time, it's like, you're talking to really high quality people, and you ask them like, hey, what has impressed you mostly? Or you get, you get super interested in a, in a sector, and then you say, okay, like, what are all the, we go to someone and say, hey, like, what are all the companies in the sector? And you do a little bit of homework. And then it's like, oh, okay, this is, this is an interesting company. Yeah, so I've done, I've done, so I mean, I've done four companies since I started at Benchmark. Three have been this way. And then the fourth one, the fourth one, I actually, I'm a co-founder. So I started the company with someone that, that I knew for a long time.

AI assessment note: “very little of what I want to do just comes inbound”

Q this shift in budget from labor to technology spend, something that I just worry inherently about is like the increasing chasm between rich and poor and the inequality that comes as a result. Even if there are 5000 people in that company that's worth a trillion dollars, It could replace a trillion dollars of spend on labor. Do you share my concern and, and is that just an inevitable progression?

A 100%. What percentage of knowledge work as we know today will exist in 10 years? Like if you define work, knowledge work as work you do behind a computer, I think it's probably like one percent. You know, the thing that I worry most about is if you're college, if you're someone coming out of college, What are the things that you can do, like, if you're coming out of law school, like, what are the things that you can do that, that a model won't be able to do, like, in three years? You know, there's not gonna be that many things, and at the same time, like, companies will be more valuable because they, they're gonna reduce costs so much, so people that own companies, people that own shares will get richer, founders will get way richer, you're gonna have this, 300 dollar companies being done by very small teams. So that's a very destabilizing force. And that's something that, that is something to worry about. And I think, and people All these things are controversial, so you see these big leaders talking, like the big companies still talking about, like, oh, no, AI is not replacing people. AI is actually augmenting people's abilities, like this is bullshit, you know, like it's fully replacing people, right?

AI assessment note: “100%... people that own shares will get richer, founders will get way richer”

Q worked with 21 year olds. As brilliant as they are, and as insightful as they are, in my mind, you gain scar tissue, nuance, just a little bit of wisdom with age, and you can plant that with great mentors, but do you find you have to change the type of investor that you are, the board member that you are, the coach that you are, with a younger founder?

A Yes. Like, I think a hundred percent. And, you know, I think a lot about what's the, what's the role of a board member? I think it's related to, like, what's, what's special about Silicon Valley? And, you know, I was trying to come up with a number, but if you start a company in the west coast of the United States, like, you are a thousand times more likely to build a tech giant in the west coast of the United States than you are anywhere else in the world, right? So, and, like, the, the, the raw math is, um, like, 70% of the largest tech comp, 70% of, like, all companies in the world were starting the west coast of the United States, like, like, Bayer, Seattle, and I think 0.1% of people live there, so, like, you do the math, it's, like, roughly, like, a thousand times more, more likely, right? So, so why is that? Because, because people are just as smart, like, in Silicon Valley that they are in Europe or, like, in Brazil, but the big difference here is, There's so much knowledge about how companies are built. And when someone starts a company, like he's able to access all that knowledge, right? So when, when Zuck did, uh, Facebook, like he hired a bunch of people from Google and like had board members that had been at other places. So I think a lot of the, The role of a board member is, how do you help, like, how do you catalyze that? How do you help a founder access all the…

AI assessment note: “Yes. Like, I think a hundred percent.”

Q Is that a world that you want your kids to grow up in?

A I think that's, like, that's where I disagree with a lot of people. I think we're always very afraid of technology. Like, humans are always very afraid of what's coming next. I actually think it's going to be wonderful. You know, I think people feel isolated, and, like, being isolated is bad for a bunch of reasons, because, like, you feel like you don't understand yourself, like, and if, and if you have a challenge, you have a hard time thinking about this challenge, like, imagine you have this hyper-capable friend that helps you understand yourself, like, knows everything about you, and whatever situation you have, he helps you, like, figure that out, so you feel supported, like, you feel like you're never alone. Even more than that, like, I think a lot of people say, oh, this is very dystopic, because, like, once you have this AI friends, like, you won't have, like, regular friends. I, I think, I think this is very untrue, because in the end, like, this is, we still want to see people in person, and your AI friend, not only, not only, Will help you, like, understand yourself, but it will help you connect with great people. It will help you, like, find out, like, hey, I know you really well, and turns out that there's, there's a hundred million people that I know really well, and I'm gonna connect you guys, but it's gonna function, like, very much in the way that a person intr…

AI assessment note: “I actually think it's going to be wonderful.”

Q What crazy thing Well, what thing do we do today that we will look back on and go, that's crazy. Like, do you remember, like, hey, you'll find your loved one on a dating app. Bullshit, you won't. Hey, you'd put your credit card details into the internet. No way. What, what's that?

A I think this thing that will happen quite soon is, like, we're gonna have an app, and like, you're gonna wake up, and you're gonna look at your app, and you're gonna read what it says, and you're just gonna do it. Like, the app will tell us, like, go do this. You're not gonna understand, but you're just gonna do it. And you're gonna do it, and it turns out that you're gonna be happier after you do this thing. And over time, like, you just learn to trust the app. It's gonna be a complete reversal, like, you're not going to apps to make it easier To do the things you want to do. For example, like, oh, I go on Instacart to, like, get my groceries. Like, you know what you want to do. You go there, and it just makes it easier for that to be, to happen. It's like, you go to the app for the app to tell you what to do. And it just blindly trusts and does whatever the app says.

AI assessment note: “you go to the app for the app to tell you what to do”

Q worked with 21 year olds. As brilliant as they are, and as insightful as they are, in my mind, you gain scar tissue, nuance, just a little bit of wisdom with age, and you can plant that with great mentors, but do you find you have to change the type of investor that you are, the board member that you are, the coach that you are, with a younger founder?

A Yes. Like, I think a hundred percent. And, you know, I think a lot about what's the, what's the role of a board member? I think it's related to, like, what's, what's special about Silicon Valley? And, you know, I was trying to come up with a number, but if you start a company in the west coast of the United States, like, you are a thousand times more likely to build a tech giant in the west coast of the United States than you are anywhere else in the world, right? So, and, like, the, the, the raw math is, um, like, 70% of the largest tech comp, 70% of, like, all companies in the world were starting the west coast of the United States, like, like, Bayer, Seattle, and I think 0.1% of people live there, so, like, you do the math, it's, like, roughly, like, a thousand times more, more likely, right? So, so why is that? Because, because people are just as smart, like, in Silicon Valley that they are in Europe or, like, in Brazil, but the big difference here is, There's so much knowledge about how companies are built. And when someone starts a company, like he's able to access all that knowledge, right? So when, when Zuck did, uh, Facebook, like he hired a bunch of people from Google and like had board members that had been at other places. So I think a lot of the, The role of a board member is, how do you help, like, how do you catalyze that? How do you help a founder access all the…

AI assessment note: “Yes. Like, I think a hundred percent.”

Q What crazy thing Well, what thing do we do today that we will look back on and go, that's crazy. Like, do you remember, like, hey, you'll find your loved one on a dating app. Bullshit, you won't. Hey, you'd put your credit card details into the internet. No way. What, what's that?

A I think this thing that will happen quite soon is, like, we're gonna have an app, and like, you're gonna wake up, and you're gonna look at your app, and you're gonna read what it says, and you're just gonna do it. Like, the app will tell us, like, go do this. You're not gonna understand, but you're just gonna do it. And you're gonna do it, and it turns out that you're gonna be happier after you do this thing. And over time, like, you just learn to trust the app. It's gonna be a complete reversal, like, you're not going to apps to make it easier To do the things you want to do. For example, like, oh, I go on Instacart to, like, get my groceries. Like, you know what you want to do. You go there, and it just makes it easier for that to be, to happen. It's like, you go to the app for the app to tell you what to do. And it just blindly trusts and does whatever the app says.

AI assessment note: “we're gonna have an app... you're gonna read what it says, and you're just gonna do it.”

Q Do you think an investor can move the needle for a founder? You know, Keith Raboi says that, you know, the best founders don't need you.

A If you call the people that I work with, you should, and you should call them. And it's like, I did. I think you can. Right. And like, so, so one thing that made me very happy is like a few months back, like Peter came to me and said, Hey, Uh, man, I'm so grateful that, that you've been a partner on this, and that you're the closest thing that I have to a co-founder outside of the company, right? So, can you make, can you make a difference? I think it's actually very hard to make a significant difference from the outside, but the way you do it is founders need a thought partner, and founders need a way to, like, access all the knowledge in the ecosystem, and you can catalyze that. But I think, like, the good founders, like, they have access to a bunch of people, like, the, the good, the good founders, like, they don't work on isolation, they have access to a bunch of people, but the difference, like, the thing that you can do as a board member that is very hard for other people to do is, You know, like, I've been at the Brexport for, I don't know, like, seven years, and for every important hire that he did, like, I discussed that with him, and I've done, like, so many, say, like, close calls with candidates, that once he has a problem, like, he calls me just because I have way more context than he does, than, than, than other people do, right? So I think, like, how do you add v…

AI assessment note: “I think you can... can you make a difference? I think it's actually very hard”

Q If our jobs is to solve humanity's biggest problems, what's going, where's the disconnect?

A I wouldn't even make like a, a larger claim. And the claim is humanity, like what do people want? And like, and then people just want to be happy. And there's a lot of study on like what makes someone happy, right? And turns out that wealth makes people happier. Like the, the, the more material wealth you have, the happier you are. But it's actually, it's not like a linear relationship. It's like log linear, right? So if you get to like 75,000 dollars a year for a U.S. household, like you start to taper off. And so making people wealthier actually does not affect their happiness that much. And then what does technology do? Like technology helps us be more productive, which is like, hey, it makes us wealthier, and it makes us achieve the goals that we want, like, better, right? So it makes us more productive. But research shows that the biggest predictor of your happiness is like the quality and depth of your relationships, right? And technology has not attacked that. But I think that the really cool thing now is we're able to have a digital friend, and I think that would be fantastic. I think you look at the studies and like, like religious people on average are happier than the non-religious people. A lot of the difference is explained because like religious people, like they have the stronger Really ties with the community, but also religious people, they have a relationship …

AI assessment note: “research shows that the biggest predictor of your happiness is like the quality”

Q Can you unpack that? When you ask that, how do the best display themselves? What are the varying responses?

A And like, and to be honest, like, this is a trick, this is a trick that, that I stole from, ah, Yuri Milner. So, I was, I was having breakfast with Yuri. And I was like, hey, like, what makes you a good investor? And he was telling me like, oh, you know, when I met a founder, I asked him like, hey, what's your day like? But it's not like, oh, what, tell me two, three things. No, no, no. What time you wake up? What is the first thing you do? And then walk through the entire day, and they're like, what time you go to bed, and what are you doing in bed? And these choices that people, the choices that people make on their free time are the ones that, that really tell you who they are. And for Pedro, it's like, hey, on my free time, man, I love sitting in front of my computer and tracking the packages that iOS, uh, that the iPhones send to servers, because I really understand, like, how that architecture is done, because if I pay enough attention, then I'm, I get a chance to, like, hack it. Like, that's how he, he found, like, one of the, one of the jailbreaks that, that That, like, back in the day, he was, he was the first person to find one of the jail breaks for the iPhone, right? But he did that for, like, no reason. Like, you know, like, he didn't make money out of it. It's just like, you know, like, it's just, okay, I like going very deep on this, on this technical thing. And …

AI assessment note: “these choices that people make on their free time are the ones that really tell you”

Q If our jobs is to solve humanity's biggest problems, what's going, where's the disconnect?

A I wouldn't even make like a, a larger claim. And the claim is humanity, like what do people want? And like, and then people just want to be happy. And there's a lot of study on like what makes someone happy, right? And turns out that wealth makes people happier. Like the, the, the more material wealth you have, the happier you are. But it's actually, it's not like a linear relationship. It's like log linear, right? So if you get to like 75,000 dollars a year for a U.S. household, like you start to taper off. And so making people wealthier actually does not affect their happiness that much. And then what does technology do? Like technology helps us be more productive, which is like, hey, it makes us wealthier, and it makes us achieve the goals that we want, like, better, right? So it makes us more productive. But research shows that the biggest predictor of your happiness is like the quality and depth of your relationships, right? And technology has not attacked that. But I think that the really cool thing now is we're able to have a digital friend, and I think that would be fantastic. I think you look at the studies and like, like religious people on average are happier than the non-religious people. A lot of the difference is explained because like religious people, like they have the stronger Really ties with the community, but also religious people, they have a relationship …

AI assessment note: “technology helps us be more productive... But research shows that the biggest predictor of your happiness is like the quality”

Q Really? If you, I, I agree with you, but like officially the job of a board member is to, you know, have a fiduciary duty to shareholders. Fiduciary duty to shareholders is not always the same as maximizing a founder's ambition. How do you think about that?

A If you're taking a lot of, uh, decisions in isolation, it's like, oh, okay, like in this case, I believe that If we do this, like, it's gonna be better for the shareholders. But if you look at an aggregate, like your policy is, I'm gonna, I'm gonna choose the best founders, and I'm gonna trust them. And my fiduciary duty comes in at the moment where I write the check. It's like, I'm underwriting that person. It's like, hey, do I think this guy will be a good CEO? And once you're there, it's like, I'm just, I'm here to enable this guy. And like, even when I disagree with him, I'm just gonna, like, help him do what he wants to do.

AI assessment note: “my fiduciary duty comes in at the moment where I write the check”

Q Do you think an investor can move the needle for a founder? You know, Keith Raboi says that, you know, the best founders don't need you.

A If you call the people that I work with, you should, and you should call them. And it's like, I did. I think you can. Right. And like, so, so one thing that made me very happy is like a few months back, like Peter came to me and said, Hey, Uh, man, I'm so grateful that, that you've been a partner on this, and that you're the closest thing that I have to a co-founder outside of the company, right? So, can you make, can you make a difference? I think it's actually very hard to make a significant difference from the outside, but the way you do it is founders need a thought partner, and founders need a way to, like, access all the knowledge in the ecosystem, and you can catalyze that. But I think, like, the good founders, like, they have access to a bunch of people, like, the, the good, the good founders, like, they don't work on isolation, they have access to a bunch of people, but the difference, like, the thing that you can do as a board member that is very hard for other people to do is, You know, like, I've been at the Brexport for, I don't know, like, seven years, and for every important hire that he did, like, I discussed that with him, and I've done, like, so many, say, like, close calls with candidates, that once he has a problem, like, he calls me just because I have way more context than he does, than, than, than other people do, right? So I think, like, how do you add v…

AI assessment note: “I think it's actually very hard to make a significant difference from the outside”

Q I asked Peter, what should I ask him? He said, the one question I'd really want to know from Victor is, if you look back in 10 years, in what ways do you want to have meaningfully changed benchmark to prevent its extinction?

A I, I don't know if like, Prevents the extinction is the, is the function we're trying to maximize. I think the function we're trying to maximize is like, there's going to be 10 trillion dollar companies created in the next decade. How do we make it so that we're in a large number of them, and we have a deep relationship with those founders? Like, I think that's, I think that's a maximizing function. And to me, it's just like, it works backwards from how are you, like, obviously the right choice for the founders that have a ton of choices. And right now, Benchmark, like, when we want to do something, like, we typically do it. You know, like, typically, we have the chance to partner with the companies that we want to partner. But the problem is, because we're a small firm, there's a lot of stuff that we don't even see. And like, there's a lot of stuff that, and then sometimes people are raising a round that doesn't look like a benchmark round. And I think, I think that is the thing that is most important for us to change. It's like a lot of times people think, oh, this is a benchmark round. Like, this is not a benchmark round. So I think What it means, like, it needs to be clear to everyone's like, hey, what, what's a benchmark round? And a benchmark round is when there's a founder that is very capable going after a very big market, and as long as you have that, like, that's a be…

AI assessment note: “I think that is the thing that is most important for us to change.”

Q Wow, that's absolutely nuts. Okay, so you're like, shit, we can't fundraise, no one's giving us money, we need to build this business just naturally. What happens then?

A I think that the core, like, the core insights, like, the core thing that made us, uh, so I started the company when I brought them, like, the core thing that made us choose to do mobile games is, like, in college we, we loved video games, And initially we said, hey, like, let's, let's build a company that's competing with Nintendo, but that sounded like a really bad business idea. But then, like, we came, like, we looked around and was like, hey, like, what's working in the world? And we saw that app downloads, like, this was in the market, and app downloads had grown 42 times. From 29, from 2008 to 2009, happy downloads, mobile app downloads had grown, like, 42 times. I was like, wow, like, this is, like, this growth is insane. So, so we should make mobile apps, and we love games, so, like, let's, let's make mobile games, right? So, like, I think that was the, that was, like, a great insight. And so we started the company, and the first few games we did everything ourselves, like we didn't have any employees.

AI assessment note: “the first few games we did everything ourselves, like we didn't have any employees”

Q Is that a world that you want your kids to grow up in?

A I think that's, like, that's where I disagree with a lot of people. I think we're always very afraid of technology. Like, humans are always very afraid of what's coming next. I actually think it's going to be wonderful. You know, I think people feel isolated, and, like, being isolated is bad for a bunch of reasons, because, like, you feel like you don't understand yourself, like, and if, and if you have a challenge, you have a hard time thinking about this challenge, like, imagine you have this hyper-capable friend that helps you understand yourself, like, knows everything about you, and whatever situation you have, he helps you, like, figure that out, so you feel supported, like, you feel like you're never alone. Even more than that, like, I think a lot of people say, oh, this is very dystopic, because, like, once you have this AI friends, like, you won't have, like, regular friends. I, I think, I think this is very untrue, because in the end, like, this is, we still want to see people in person, and your AI friend, not only, not only, Will help you, like, understand yourself, but it will help you connect with great people. It will help you, like, find out, like, hey, I know you really well, and turns out that there's, there's a hundred million people that I know really well, and I'm gonna connect you guys, but it's gonna function, like, very much in the way that a person intr…

AI assessment note: “I actually think it's going to be wonderful.”

Q of modern consumers, a community which consolidates beliefs and brings unity. Soul cycle. It is this feeling of togetherness, which is extraordinary to say that's replaced God, uh, maybe is the signifying of society. But I think about that a lot. Question, would you not say that social has brought more high quality and depth to relationships? If you think about your ability to follow your friend's wedding on Instagram?

A No, I think social, I think social is definitely positive. And, you know, I first, Like, I first started interacting with my wife. I met my wife, like, three years ago, and I first interacted with her, like, through Instagram. We had, like, friends in common, so I started following her and, like, commenting on her stories, and, you know, maybe our relationship wouldn't have happened because of Instagram, and, and she's the biggest source of joy in my life, so incredibly, incredibly grateful that, that, that these things exist, but I think This thing just scratches the surface. Like, I think the way Instagram is set up, like, it does not help you connect nowhere near the way it would be able to, right? When you think about why, why is it adaptive to have friends? And a lot of it is like, okay, we need to have A story that helps us understand what's happening with us, right? Like, we create our own, like, internal narrative, and when you have a friend, like, you explain your narrative to your friends, and your friends comments on your narrative and helps you shape it, and that, that makes you better able to understand yourself and where you're going, right? So humans, they have this intense need to feel seen and understood, and this is very adaptive. We're at a point where AI is able to do that for you. Like, AI is able to Help you shape, like, okay, what is your personal narrati…

AI assessment note: “I think social is definitely positive... but I think This thing just scratches the surface.”

Q Wow, that's absolutely nuts. Okay, so you're like, shit, we can't fundraise, no one's giving us money, we need to build this business just naturally. What happens then?

A I think that the core, like, the core insights, like, the core thing that made us, uh, so I started the company when I brought them, like, the core thing that made us choose to do mobile games is, like, in college we, we loved video games, And initially we said, hey, like, let's, let's build a company that's competing with Nintendo, but that sounded like a really bad business idea. But then, like, we came, like, we looked around and was like, hey, like, what's working in the world? And we saw that app downloads, like, this was in the market, and app downloads had grown 42 times. From 29, from 2008 to 2009, happy downloads, mobile app downloads had grown, like, 42 times. I was like, wow, like, this is, like, this growth is insane. So, so we should make mobile apps, and we love games, so, like, let's, let's make mobile games, right? So, like, I think that was the, that was, like, a great insight. And so we started the company, and the first few games we did everything ourselves, like we didn't have any employees.

AI assessment note: “first few games we did everything ourselves, like we didn't have any employees.”

Q I bluntly spoke to so many people about you, there was one relationship in particular which struck me, which was when I spoke to Pedro at Brice about you, and he mentioned a number of things which just really highlighted the depth of your friendship. You invested pre-product Pre-revenue. Can you take me to that, and what that journey has taught you about investing, company trajectory, and shaped you actually?

A So the way I met Pedro is, so I was building my company in Brazil, and you know, as I said, we started, ah, we bootstrapped the business, like, we eventually grew it. Uh, to over a billion users, and there were very few people building technology companies in Brazil at the time, and then Pedro, he had a problem with a, with an investor. He was, when he was 16, he, he created his first, uh, payments company in Brazil, and turns out that he signed a, a, a deal that he shouldn't have, and he lost control of the company, and the investors made it impossible for him to capture any value. So I spent a ton of time with him, and, like, with lawyers, and saying, hey, how, how do we get out of this? And after, after, and I had no shares, like, I was just like, man, I was just, hey, this kid is so smart, like, this kid is so, so good, he deserves To succeed, right? So I really wanted him to succeed. And then after a while, like, I was like, hey, man, I'm selling, like, my mobile gaming company will sell things in the U.S., and the U.S. is a much better market. And You should just, you should just, like, let go of the company that you have, and you should go build something similar in the U.S. Uh, and so eventually he agreed to it, and so he moved to the U.S., and he started Brex, and then when he started Brex, he's like, hey, like, can you, can you invest on my seed round, and like, can y…

AI assessment note: “when he started Brex, he's like, hey, like, can you, can you invest”