The Exchanges

Q too, because like boards are very significant in terms of deciding where to go. What are the top one or two markets? You mentioned Belgium earlier. And I was like, why, why is he even going to Belgium? And you were like, oh, the transport. And that was why in like shipping. And so what are the core determinants that decide why you choose a market as attractive or not?

A So we try to reason from probability of Generating success as in Euro values. And if all probabilities in every countries would be the same, then you would just start with the biggest country. Yet that's not, not the case. So the equation is a product of probability of success and the size of a country. And then probability of success is defined by practically the level of competition, the level of development of infrastructure and shipping in payments and maturity of e-commerce market. And based on such variables, you then come to a probability that you are going to be successful. Then you rank those probabilities of success times the value of the market in a little Excel, and then you have your prioritization. When we are talking about France, second margin market, Belgium, it was just the first time we were, after a long time, folks in France were going out and we said, let's just take a market that is the easiest. And thus we took Belgium. Kind of to warm up and have the lowest probability of failure. So we first went for a couple of safe bets and then we started to rank it as it is.

AI assessment note: “the equation is a product of probability of success and the size of a country”

Q Now I want to start with a bit of a weird one, but Thomas, I heard that you never intended to be the CEO. So can I ask how did the opportunity actually come to be given that as a starting point?

A Yeah. So I, um, I got involved with, with FJ Labs, and we, we, we built a company there that we sold to, um, uh, to Wallapop. Then we ran that for a while, and there you had Investors Insight and Accel on the board. And then when we sold off to Letgo, I was kind of like without a job, had nothing to do, but I was really enjoying it. Living in New York, I was skating a little bit and thinking about what to do next. And actually the plan was to build something again with Fabrice, because I don't know, me and Fabrice clicked and I was good. So then I had LOD from Inside Ventures who came to me and said, Thomas, come for breakfast. I have this amazing company. You gotta come. And I asked about the company and it's kind of like, really didn't look good. I'm like, come on, I'm not gonna go to Lithuania while I live here in New York. And like, it's like, no, I'm not gonna do this. Another breakfast, another pitch of LOD. And I'm like, okay, I'll take a call. So I took a call with, um, Mantas, Justus, and Vidas. And I remember these guys coming in. And they first told their stories about, you know, how they grew up in Lithuania, meaning growing up in the Soviet Union, like Soviet Union falls apart, like big chaos. These guys, brilliant, start building tech companies in Lithuania at the age of 1314, 15. Mantas built like a server company by himself that he sold. He was a data expert. Ju…

AI assessment note: “LOD from Inside Ventures who came to me and said, Thomas, come for breakfast”

Q too, because like boards are very significant in terms of deciding where to go. What are the top one or two markets? You mentioned Belgium earlier. And I was like, why, why is he even going to Belgium? And you were like, oh, the transport. And that was why in like shipping. And so what are the core determinants that decide why you choose a market as attractive or not?

A So we try to reason from probability of Generating success as in Euro values. And if all probabilities in every countries would be the same, then you would just start with the biggest country. Yet that's not, not the case. So the equation is a product of probability of success and the size of a country. And then probability of success is defined by practically the level of competition, the level of development of infrastructure and shipping in payments and maturity of e-commerce market. And based on such variables, you then come to a probability that you are going to be successful. Then you rank those probabilities of success times the value of the market in a little Excel, and then you have your prioritization. When we are talking about France, second margin market, Belgium, it was just the first time we were, after a long time, folks in France were going out and we said, let's just take a market that is the easiest. And thus we took Belgium. Kind of to warm up and have the lowest probability of failure. So we first went for a couple of safe bets and then we started to rank it as it is.

AI assessment note: “the equation is a product of probability of success and the size of a country”

Q But it wasn't. And it wasn't because of the international expansion. And so I want to discuss that and understand that you've shown that your ability to build market share and now multiple geos from start. It's a really shit question. So I'm really sorry for asking it, but how did you broach the chicken and egg problem of a new part marketplace in a new country?

A Yeah, I think it's, it's an, um, it all comes down to focusing on what's causal driver of success. And, and when you, when you look at Vinted, it's, it's purely that you create successful buyers and sellers. So, so the seller needs to become successful. Then he comes back, becomes a buyer. So you really need to ensure That you build success for the people that come to your platform. So that means that the conversion rates are, are high and that there are multiple drivers behind that. So the first one obviously is that your recommendation engines are working well so that the right buyers see the right content. So that's basic fix number one. Number two, very, very important is that all the negative effects are mitigated. So that's really ensuring that all the security, trust and safety stuff is, is in place. And then The third element is practically that all the things that facilitate the transaction are completely seamless. So shipping, payments, the wallet, the transaction, everything. So those are practically your hygiene factors. And then you need to have an ability to kind of like see around the corner in terms of how you're going to deploy your marketing investments. And there you have to be in the beginning, you have to be a bit brave. So you have to practically map out for yourself. If, if I can get to this point, Then that means I can, we'll have that efficiency, and fr…

AI assessment note: “all comes down to focusing on what's causal driver of success”

Q I got you. Well, you know, you hope regulates better than anyone else. So we'll get to that. Can I, can I ask you what's the run totally weird and random one, but actually first we talked about like the difference between resale and, you know, what shine and, um, team who do, how do you think about breadth versus depth in each new geo? That's a really difficult decision.

A The type of marketplace that we are, we are two sided. Network effect marketplace. Buyers and sellers, two sides. And the bigger we become, the more valuable the marketplace becomes. So you clearly see more listings. The more listings you have, the faster you sell those listings. So for us to get a bit, a model working in a country, it is crucial to get the depth, because that's driving the, the network effects, and thereby we go practically, in Europe, region by region, creating these working two-sided marketplace, And then moving on to the next. And that not only goes for, let's say a country, it also goes for a category. So also within our categories, depth is the most interesting thing. So I would say in our business, two-sided network effects, depth is what drives the fundaments to then go wider.

AI assessment note: “crucial to get the depth, because that's driving the, the network effects”

Q Do you worry about going public because of the education that would ensue for retail investors, for the street, to understand the nuances of what we said there, to understand some other nuances of the business which aren't as obvious to everyone else as they are to someone like us?

A I think when we go public and, and It's the same as when now talking to venture capitalists, your numbers needs to be obviously clear on that. It's working like it needs to be obvious. And, and I think if it's not, then you can be lucky that you raise around at a good valuation, but it needs to be razor sharp on like how you're converting cash into future cash flows and how you are growing your business and how you're building defensibility. And I think I'm not worried about it because. Every time I talk to somebody about Vinted that they didn't know our financials, they were very skeptical about it. Secondhand, who's buying secondhand? Is this ever going to be a business? And then you show the financials and they're like, holy crap, how many people are doing this? And so, so I think like you need to be very specific to be able to explain how you gonna create value and, and, and yeah, so, so, so I'm not worried about it. I think it will be the same game as in private.

AI assessment note: “so I'm not worried about it. I think it will be the same game”

Q I want to just ask on that, Thomas, because you going specifically, why did the business model break and go upside down? And what did you do to turn it around as specifically as possible?

A Yeah, it's practically the value that the user gets out of it and the cost that you're asking. So they were asking something in the tune of 15 to 20% seller fee, which is like the standard thing that eBay and Poshmark were doing for years, But then in Europe, you had all these free classifieds where you could meet on the streets like Greg's list practically, and that's big in Europe. So they were launching this fee model while all the other also well working platforms were practically giving higher liquidity at lower cost. So practically the value proposition was inferior. So then that's where actually that were the fundamentals where our research started. Okay. How can we create a value proposition that is superior to what it is in terms of liquidity and pricing? And then gives a lot more comfort in terms of safety, transactional services, everything that's there. And therefore we build it like these three revenue streams instead of only one revenue stream that enabled us to bring the cost of the transaction completely down and then generate extra cash out of other revenue streams. So practically economies of scope created the ability to create a proposition.

AI assessment note: “we build it like these three revenue streams instead of only one revenue stream”

Q But, but I just want to understand, like, why did it work the sixth time when it didn't work the prea, prea, fucking hell, prior five times?

A Yeah, so I think we always want explanations that are kind of like binary. We fix this and then it worked. Yet, if you look at an ecosystem of Vinted, it is a multi-multivariate system. So even within Vinted itself, you have all these factors, like the different type of buyers, the different regions, then you have this different shipping companies, the different payment companies, then you have outside factors, Which is like your competitors, uh, the fashion macro trends, all these kind of things. So there are many, many things that have impact. So you never know exactly which of these things had the most impact. So the things that I know that we really, really improved on in the last time I went into it is that we really improved our shipping proposition. We fixed a couple of fundamental things within payment. And then what we were very lucky with is that COVID opened a window of opportunity, that the marketing prices went down, people went more online, and then we actually saw that our improvements that we did before gave some organic growth, and then we felt bullish enough to put money behind that, and then it really took off. And then we just, then when we saw those numbers, we saw like, hey, now it fits our market phase model. And then we just, then we went all in, like the whole company just focused and just go in.

AI assessment note: “we really improved our shipping proposition. We fixed a couple of fundamental things within payment.”

Q So Thomas, when you're a pro podcaster, you'll really get professional note taking when someone speaks. Uh, but I was writing things, uh, that I really wanted to double click on. You said about like, uh, recommendation driven for on the buy side. I'm intrigued. How much do you want it to be demand search driven versus recommendation driven on the buy side? And what does that look like today?

A Yeah. So people come with a certain intention usually. And then they start clicking. So in that moment, the, the, the, the software needs to ensure that next to, let's say the most relevant results, you also get other recommendations. So when you look at, um, like look at vintage, you'll see a feed that has, when you search for something, you get specifically what you want. But then when you go, for example, to the item, to the item, you also see what other items this user has. So you have, let's say a mix of the both. And that really works because then people are Inspired to also look at other things that person has. And very likely when you are liking a certain sweater that a person has, this person probably has a certain style that you like, and probably the other items that they have are relevant, but random in terms of what you were searching for. So it is a mix of both that you need to, uh, need to, uh, address.

AI assessment note: “you have, let's say a mix of the both”

Q I want to just ask on that, Thomas, because you going specifically, why did the business model break and go upside down? And what did you do to turn it around as specifically as possible?

A Yeah, it's practically the value that the user gets out of it and the cost that you're asking. So they were asking something in the tune of 15 to 20% seller fee, which is like the standard thing that eBay and Poshmark were doing for years, But then in Europe, you had all these free classifieds where you could meet on the streets like Greg's list practically, and that's big in Europe. So they were launching this fee model while all the other also well working platforms were practically giving higher liquidity at lower cost. So practically the value proposition was inferior. So then that's where actually that were the fundamentals where our research started. Okay. How can we create a value proposition that is superior to what it is in terms of liquidity and pricing? And then gives a lot more comfort in terms of safety, transactional services, everything that's there. And therefore we build it like these three revenue streams instead of only one revenue stream that enabled us to bring the cost of the transaction completely down and then generate extra cash out of other revenue streams. So practically economies of scope created the ability to create a proposition.

AI assessment note: “therefore we build it like these three revenue streams instead of only one”

Q So Thomas, when you're a pro podcaster, you'll really get professional note taking when someone speaks. Uh, but I was writing things, uh, that I really wanted to double click on. You said about like, uh, recommendation driven for on the buy side. I'm intrigued. How much do you want it to be demand search driven versus recommendation driven on the buy side? And what does that look like today?

A Yeah. So people come with a certain intention usually. And then they start clicking. So in that moment, the, the, the, the software needs to ensure that next to, let's say the most relevant results, you also get other recommendations. So when you look at, um, like look at vintage, you'll see a feed that has, when you search for something, you get specifically what you want. But then when you go, for example, to the item, to the item, you also see what other items this user has. So you have, let's say a mix of the both. And that really works because then people are Inspired to also look at other things that person has. And very likely when you are liking a certain sweater that a person has, this person probably has a certain style that you like, and probably the other items that they have are relevant, but random in terms of what you were searching for. So it is a mix of both that you need to, uh, need to, uh, address.

AI assessment note: “So you have, let's say a mix of the both.”

Q Did you mispredict because of Inaccurate cohorts due to COVID?

A We did not, uh, because like we got quite a boost to it and we know that we have this summer effect and these autumn effects and we see just in summer, people go to the beach and then they're buying a lot less. It's very obvious. Then autumn comes, weather changes, people are starting trading again and whop, all the metric goes up. So we saw kind of like people were locked up in the rooms and we saw a bit of a boost due to that. And it was very clear, like it's because of that. So, and what we all also knew was like, at a certain point in time, these people are going to go out again into the parks and enjoy their lives. So we were actually very scared of like the after COVID dip, and thereby we predicted quite conservatively, and therefore we were in a good place. But I think Lithuania We have a very paranoid mindset. It's a country that's been run over by the Soviets, the Germans, and like, you know, if you live between Kalingrad, Belarus and Latvia, you, you kind of like are always aware that maybe something goes wrong. And, and us, like when things go really well, you're kind of like, okay, this feels too good to be true. Let's be very careful.

AI assessment note: “We did not, uh, because like we got quite a boost to it”

Q Do you worry about going public because of the education that would ensue for retail investors, for the street, to understand the nuances of what we said there, to understand some other nuances of the business which aren't as obvious to everyone else as they are to someone like us?

A I think when we go public and, and It's the same as when now talking to venture capitalists, your numbers needs to be obviously clear on that. It's working like it needs to be obvious. And, and I think if it's not, then you can be lucky that you raise around at a good valuation, but it needs to be razor sharp on like how you're converting cash into future cash flows and how you are growing your business and how you're building defensibility. And I think I'm not worried about it because. Every time I talk to somebody about Vinted that they didn't know our financials, they were very skeptical about it. Secondhand, who's buying secondhand? Is this ever going to be a business? And then you show the financials and they're like, holy crap, how many people are doing this? And so, so I think like you need to be very specific to be able to explain how you gonna create value and, and, and yeah, so, so, so I'm not worried about it. I think it will be the same game as in private.

AI assessment note: “I'm not worried about it... I think it will be the same game”

Q But, but I just want to understand, like, why did it work the sixth time when it didn't work the prea, prea, fucking hell, prior five times?

A Yeah, so I think we always want explanations that are kind of like binary. We fix this and then it worked. Yet, if you look at an ecosystem of Vinted, it is a multi-multivariate system. So even within Vinted itself, you have all these factors, like the different type of buyers, the different regions, then you have this different shipping companies, the different payment companies, then you have outside factors, Which is like your competitors, uh, the fashion macro trends, all these kind of things. So there are many, many things that have impact. So you never know exactly which of these things had the most impact. So the things that I know that we really, really improved on in the last time I went into it is that we really improved our shipping proposition. We fixed a couple of fundamental things within payment. And then what we were very lucky with is that COVID opened a window of opportunity, that the marketing prices went down, people went more online, and then we actually saw that our improvements that we did before gave some organic growth, and then we felt bullish enough to put money behind that, and then it really took off. And then we just, then when we saw those numbers, we saw like, hey, now it fits our market phase model. And then we just, then we went all in, like the whole company just focused and just go in.

AI assessment note: “we really improved our shipping proposition. We fixed a couple of fundamental things within payment.”

Q I got you. Well, you know, you hope regulates better than anyone else. So we'll get to that. Can I, can I ask you what's the run totally weird and random one, but actually first we talked about like the difference between resale and, you know, what shine and, um, team who do, how do you think about breadth versus depth in each new geo? That's a really difficult decision.

A The type of marketplace that we are, we are two sided. Network effect marketplace. Buyers and sellers, two sides. And the bigger we become, the more valuable the marketplace becomes. So you clearly see more listings. The more listings you have, the faster you sell those listings. So for us to get a bit, a model working in a country, it is crucial to get the depth, because that's driving the, the network effects, and thereby we go practically, in Europe, region by region, creating these working two-sided marketplace, And then moving on to the next. And that not only goes for, let's say a country, it also goes for a category. So also within our categories, depth is the most interesting thing. So I would say in our business, two-sided network effects, depth is what drives the fundaments to then go wider.

AI assessment note: “depth is what drives the fundaments to then go wider”

Q And when you made that transition, did you see the immediate impact in terms of the resurgence of the business?

A Yeah. So we did, we practically did AB tests all around. So we had a lot of countries and we just Throw it around different propositions for a couple of days in different countries and you immediately saw it. So practically price elasticity on the fee was determined in multiple countries. And then we kind of like, you can corner it out where you need to be with your fee. And then that was very low. So it was quite scary. And actually a good, ah, a thing is like, yes, we did all the maths, but then we had Modestas, our You know, the person who was leading product and, and he was like, we calculated it and he was like, okay, this is probably the point, but let's be a little bit more safer and we make it five percent plus 70 cents. And it was a bit of like a, well, let's just do it a bit higher and a bit higher now. It's 85% of our revenue and practically all the gross margin. So, so, you know, there are a lot of, a lot of statistics definitely, but also a bit of luck with that, that we priced it there, obviously.

AI assessment note: “Yeah. So we did... and you immediately saw it.”

Q But it wasn't. And it wasn't because of the international expansion. And so I want to discuss that and understand that you've shown that your ability to build market share and now multiple geos from start. It's a really shit question. So I'm really sorry for asking it, but how did you broach the chicken and egg problem of a new part marketplace in a new country?

A Yeah, I think it's, it's an, um, it all comes down to focusing on what's causal driver of success. And, and when you, when you look at Vinted, it's, it's purely that you create successful buyers and sellers. So, so the seller needs to become successful. Then he comes back, becomes a buyer. So you really need to ensure That you build success for the people that come to your platform. So that means that the conversion rates are, are high and that there are multiple drivers behind that. So the first one obviously is that your recommendation engines are working well so that the right buyers see the right content. So that's basic fix number one. Number two, very, very important is that all the negative effects are mitigated. So that's really ensuring that all the security, trust and safety stuff is, is in place. And then The third element is practically that all the things that facilitate the transaction are completely seamless. So shipping, payments, the wallet, the transaction, everything. So those are practically your hygiene factors. And then you need to have an ability to kind of like see around the corner in terms of how you're going to deploy your marketing investments. And there you have to be in the beginning, you have to be a bit brave. So you have to practically map out for yourself. If, if I can get to this point, Then that means I can, we'll have that efficiency, and fr…

AI assessment note: “you create successful buyers and sellers. So, so the seller needs to become successful.”

Q And when you made that transition, did you see the immediate impact in terms of the resurgence of the business?

A Yeah. So we did, we practically did AB tests all around. So we had a lot of countries and we just Throw it around different propositions for a couple of days in different countries and you immediately saw it. So practically price elasticity on the fee was determined in multiple countries. And then we kind of like, you can corner it out where you need to be with your fee. And then that was very low. So it was quite scary. And actually a good, ah, a thing is like, yes, we did all the maths, but then we had Modestas, our You know, the person who was leading product and, and he was like, we calculated it and he was like, okay, this is probably the point, but let's be a little bit more safer and we make it five percent plus 70 cents. And it was a bit of like a, well, let's just do it a bit higher and a bit higher now. It's 85% of our revenue and practically all the gross margin. So, so, you know, there are a lot of, a lot of statistics definitely, but also a bit of luck with that, that we priced it there, obviously.

AI assessment note: “Yeah. So we did, we practically did AB tests all around.”

Q Did you mispredict because of Inaccurate cohorts due to COVID?

A We did not, uh, because like we got quite a boost to it and we know that we have this summer effect and these autumn effects and we see just in summer, people go to the beach and then they're buying a lot less. It's very obvious. Then autumn comes, weather changes, people are starting trading again and whop, all the metric goes up. So we saw kind of like people were locked up in the rooms and we saw a bit of a boost due to that. And it was very clear, like it's because of that. So, and what we all also knew was like, at a certain point in time, these people are going to go out again into the parks and enjoy their lives. So we were actually very scared of like the after COVID dip, and thereby we predicted quite conservatively, and therefore we were in a good place. But I think Lithuania We have a very paranoid mindset. It's a country that's been run over by the Soviets, the Germans, and like, you know, if you live between Kalingrad, Belarus and Latvia, you, you kind of like are always aware that maybe something goes wrong. And, and us, like when things go really well, you're kind of like, okay, this feels too good to be true. Let's be very careful.

AI assessment note: “We did not”

Q And then why did that, why did, why did they fail?

A Yeah, I mean, if I knew, then we would have a working model now in the US. But I think mostly, like, if you look at the product vintage in France, 2016, 2017, January, 2017, we launched the new proposition. That product is like a hundred times worse than what we have right now. And, and we were lucky that this worked in France and that we then took, I think it's very good That the US and the UK gave like horrible numbers after some marketing tests there, that we really started to focus to make vintage France really, really work well. We said, okay, let's just really go into the details. Everything must be better. Customer support, recommendations, shipping costs, payment costs. We, like two years, we were like grinding, grinding, grinding. And then we said, okay, let's go Belgium. And then that was because Mondial Relais said, You know, we actually have a network in Belgium as well. Do you want to go there? It will be very easy with shipping. And I said, okay, we have confidence now. Let's do it. And then Belgium went quite easy. Um, but, but yeah, so, so along the way, many failures and many failed launches, like the UK took, I don't know if it's six or five times before it worked. And the last time, I mean, Alec, you were, you were by then in the board. It was like, Thomas, really? Again the UK? Like, you know that Depop is there. You're not gonna win this market. I mean, com…

AI assessment note: “That product is like a hundred times worse than what we have right now.”

Q Can I just ask, why did Germany fail?

A Because, uh, we, we, we believe that in Germany the shipping infrastructure is different than it is in, in France, so that really didn't help. Uh, so, so France, we had this beautiful company Mondial Real that really wanted to work with us, really gave us good prices, really helped us, and both of us, Mondial Realais and us, we magically grew together. It was really a symbiotic, uh, collaboration. If you look at France, why it took off, that relation with Mondial Realais, The relation with mango pay, both of these French companies believed in us, gave us good contracts and worked very closely with us. And then the marketing pricing in France was favorable. So those three things together helped us to do that. And then, then we got really excited and I was like, okay, let's just test some, uh, some stuff in the UK and the U S which horribly failed. And we're like, okay, let's get back to, let's get back to focus.

AI assessment note: “in Germany the shipping infrastructure is different than it is in, in France”

Q I agree. Why is Europe losing in your mind?

A Yeah, I mean, it's, it's very hard, right? I ask myself this question a lot, and I, I'm, it actually makes me anxious because, I mean, as a continent, you need great companies that generate a lot of jobs and pay taxes to build highways and hospitals and institutes to train society. And it scares me a lot when I see that, like, like the statistics about value we create versus what the U.S. is doing. It's, it's, it really is, it's difficult to see. I don't know what it is. Exactly. But there are a couple of things that are quite different. Like, for example, in, in, in the Netherlands, If I'm back at home, I love my friends. They're, they're amazing people. But when I'm around them, it always feels like I'm an enormous workaholic. And, and, uh, people are telling me like, come on, dude, like take it a step slower and like take a Friday's off and, uh, I don't know, start do, uh, whatever. And when I'm in New York or when I'm in Silicon Valley and I'm surrounded by people like Alex and the people there, I feel like I'm the lazy guy. So there's, there's definitely a difference in between like, uh, because you've, you know, the work ethics is very different. And I think Lithuania has a bit of an exception because it's a very young country. They really want to build themselves up, want to prove themselves. So there's a very strong work ethic there. Therefore I feel very much at home i…

AI assessment note: “in Europe, this work ethic is different.”

Q Okay, so the first two transactions are the most important, ah, totally get that. When you think about the, the markets that you've entered now, which one didn't go to plan, and what did you learn from it?

A I mean, like, the reality is, is that many things didn't go to plan, right? So, ah, like, the story from outside looks like, okay, they had friends, and they went to Belgium, they went easily to Spain, then the Netherlands, that looks like a very smooth, well thought, true story. But the reality was we actually first tried the proposition in Germany, and that went like, mwah, ok, ok, ok. And then we kind of had board approval that we, you know, could test also in other things, and we saw France go, we did the case, and then we thought, let's just go. We're not going to wait for the next board meeting. They kind of gave the direction approval, and we tried France and took off. So it started already with one failure, and then France came. Then after France went,

AI assessment note: “we actually first tried the proposition in Germany, and that went like, mwah”

Q I agree. Why is Europe losing in your mind?

A Yeah, I mean, it's, it's very hard, right? I ask myself this question a lot, and I, I'm, it actually makes me anxious because, I mean, as a continent, you need great companies that generate a lot of jobs and pay taxes to build highways and hospitals and institutes to train society. And it scares me a lot when I see that, like, like the statistics about value we create versus what the U.S. is doing. It's, it's, it really is, it's difficult to see. I don't know what it is. Exactly. But there are a couple of things that are quite different. Like, for example, in, in, in the Netherlands, If I'm back at home, I love my friends. They're, they're amazing people. But when I'm around them, it always feels like I'm an enormous workaholic. And, and, uh, people are telling me like, come on, dude, like take it a step slower and like take a Friday's off and, uh, I don't know, start do, uh, whatever. And when I'm in New York or when I'm in Silicon Valley and I'm surrounded by people like Alex and the people there, I feel like I'm the lazy guy. So there's, there's definitely a difference in between like, uh, because you've, you know, the work ethics is very different. And I think Lithuania has a bit of an exception because it's a very young country. They really want to build themselves up, want to prove themselves. So there's a very strong work ethic there. Therefore I feel very much at home i…

AI assessment note: “So there's definitely a difference in between like, because you've, you know, the work ethics”

Q question is subsequently, And the UK, I think it's particularly bad. You know, we can thank ourselves for, you know, regulating Figma. But my point being, what can we do about it? Like, when we think about the taxation policies towards US, China, other nations outside of the EU, and when we think about regulatory on M&A competition, what could we do to change it, and what would you suggest?

A I think there are two elements in this. It is our own behavior as CEOs and For profit companies to, uh, show the way in how we can be constructive for society. So it's building fair companies to a certain extent that give their fair value to society in terms of taxation, in terms of kind of revenues back go into society. And, and that, that all helps to, to, to, to support society. So actually as a company, be grateful for the society that allows you to build there, because then if you do that, you're in a position That, I don't know, governments and society will trust you. So then when you will signal that certain things are harmful, not good for society, not good for your business or, uh, the economy, then there will be trust and there will be listened to and then act upon, I think. So I think it's important to show as a company that you have the best intentions and although showing it by doing it in the right way, And then getting trust from governments and then have an open, transparent conversations with governments to help them to structure it. Because it's not that these people in politics are like, oh, let's build some nasty regulations to bring this continent down. They're trying really to do their best. And it's a complex job. And I think only if we collaborate with high integrity with each other, we can get there because it's complex. Like, I don't know exactly what …

AI assessment note: “have an open, transparent conversations with governments to help them to structure it.”

Q Okay, so the first two transactions are the most important, ah, totally get that. When you think about the, the markets that you've entered now, which one didn't go to plan, and what did you learn from it?

A I mean, like, the reality is, is that many things didn't go to plan, right? So, ah, like, the story from outside looks like, okay, they had friends, and they went to Belgium, they went easily to Spain, then the Netherlands, that looks like a very smooth, well thought, true story. But the reality was we actually first tried the proposition in Germany, and that went like, mwah, ok, ok, ok. And then we kind of had board approval that we, you know, could test also in other things, and we saw France go, we did the case, and then we thought, let's just go. We're not going to wait for the next board meeting. They kind of gave the direction approval, and we tried France and took off. So it started already with one failure, and then France came. Then after France went,

AI assessment note: “we actually first tried the proposition in Germany, and that went like, mwah”

Q And then why did that, why did, why did they fail?

A Yeah, I mean, if I knew, then we would have a working model now in the US. But I think mostly, like, if you look at the product vintage in France, 2016, 2017, January, 2017, we launched the new proposition. That product is like a hundred times worse than what we have right now. And, and we were lucky that this worked in France and that we then took, I think it's very good That the US and the UK gave like horrible numbers after some marketing tests there, that we really started to focus to make vintage France really, really work well. We said, okay, let's just really go into the details. Everything must be better. Customer support, recommendations, shipping costs, payment costs. We, like two years, we were like grinding, grinding, grinding. And then we said, okay, let's go Belgium. And then that was because Mondial Relais said, You know, we actually have a network in Belgium as well. Do you want to go there? It will be very easy with shipping. And I said, okay, we have confidence now. Let's do it. And then Belgium went quite easy. Um, but, but yeah, so, so along the way, many failures and many failed launches, like the UK took, I don't know if it's six or five times before it worked. And the last time, I mean, Alec, you were, you were by then in the board. It was like, Thomas, really? Again the UK? Like, you know that Depop is there. You're not gonna win this market. I mean, com…

AI assessment note: “if I knew, then we would have a working model now in the US.”

Q Can I just ask, why did Germany fail?

A Because, uh, we, we, we believe that in Germany the shipping infrastructure is different than it is in, in France, so that really didn't help. Uh, so, so France, we had this beautiful company Mondial Real that really wanted to work with us, really gave us good prices, really helped us, and both of us, Mondial Realais and us, we magically grew together. It was really a symbiotic, uh, collaboration. If you look at France, why it took off, that relation with Mondial Realais, The relation with mango pay, both of these French companies believed in us, gave us good contracts and worked very closely with us. And then the marketing pricing in France was favorable. So those three things together helped us to do that. And then, then we got really excited and I was like, okay, let's just test some, uh, some stuff in the UK and the U S which horribly failed. And we're like, okay, let's get back to, let's get back to focus.

AI assessment note: “in Germany the shipping infrastructure is different than it is in, in France”

Q question is subsequently, And the UK, I think it's particularly bad. You know, we can thank ourselves for, you know, regulating Figma. But my point being, what can we do about it? Like, when we think about the taxation policies towards US, China, other nations outside of the EU, and when we think about regulatory on M&A competition, what could we do to change it, and what would you suggest?

A I think there are two elements in this. It is our own behavior as CEOs and For profit companies to, uh, show the way in how we can be constructive for society. So it's building fair companies to a certain extent that give their fair value to society in terms of taxation, in terms of kind of revenues back go into society. And, and that, that all helps to, to, to, to support society. So actually as a company, be grateful for the society that allows you to build there, because then if you do that, you're in a position That, I don't know, governments and society will trust you. So then when you will signal that certain things are harmful, not good for society, not good for your business or, uh, the economy, then there will be trust and there will be listened to and then act upon, I think. So I think it's important to show as a company that you have the best intentions and although showing it by doing it in the right way, And then getting trust from governments and then have an open, transparent conversations with governments to help them to structure it. Because it's not that these people in politics are like, oh, let's build some nasty regulations to bring this continent down. They're trying really to do their best. And it's a complex job. And I think only if we collaborate with high integrity with each other, we can get there because it's complex. Like, I don't know exactly what …

AI assessment note: “I don't know exactly what the silver bullet is, but that's the only way out”