The Exchanges

Q Jeffrey, you said about your 40 years there and that incredible career. Respectfully, for someone like both of you with incredible stellar backgrounds, I would be leaning into the, operators make the best investors, and look at us with our CVs, but you guys have said to me before, operating experience becomes irrelevant very fast. Wasn't where I thought you were gonna take that. Why does it become irrelevant fast?

A So, it becomes irrelevant fast because the world changes. The tools you use, the platforms you're building on, the platforms you're marketing on, the competitive dynamics, all of those things change really quickly. When someone sees a marketing trick work, Immediately, thousands of people pile into that tactic, and they commoditize it, or they make it irrelevant, or the platform gets frustrated by the tactic and the way they perceive it as abuse, and they shut it down. I'll give you one example. I get asked all the time about something that Drew had done early in Dropbox about the referral program. If I recommended Dropbox to you and used it, we would both get extra storage. I said, yeah, it's great. I mean, I can't think of another company at scale that's been successful with that, but it was an amazing tactic, and it was responsible for, you know, a reasonable chunk of early growth.

AI assessment note: “it becomes irrelevant fast because the world changes.”

Q Jeffrey, you said about your 40 years there and that incredible career. Respectfully, for someone like both of you with incredible stellar backgrounds, I would be leaning into the, operators make the best investors, and look at us with our CVs, but you guys have said to me before, operating experience becomes irrelevant very fast. Wasn't where I thought you were gonna take that. Why does it become irrelevant fast?

A So, it becomes irrelevant fast because the world changes. The tools you use, the platforms you're building on, the platforms you're marketing on, the competitive dynamics, all of those things change really quickly. When someone sees a marketing trick work, Immediately, thousands of people pile into that tactic, and they commoditize it, or they make it irrelevant, or the platform gets frustrated by the tactic and the way they perceive it as abuse, and they shut it down. I'll give you one example. I get asked all the time about something that Drew had done early in Dropbox about the referral program. If I recommended Dropbox to you and used it, we would both get extra storage. I said, yeah, it's great. I mean, I can't think of another company at scale that's been successful with that, but it was an amazing tactic, and it was responsible for, you know, a reasonable chunk of early growth.

AI assessment note: “So, it becomes irrelevant fast because the world changes.”

Q Yeah. Do you agree when there's doubt, there's no doubt?

A Look, if you're a rigorous, like, if you have super high expectations, everyone's gonna come up short at some moment in time. You can't use that as a generic standard, especially when you're early and you haven't managed many people, and you're an empathetic person. So let's just take that as a, because there are many people in our business who are not empathetic, and for them, for their little Aspergerian, they can fire someone without thinking too hard about it. But for people who are empathetic, which I think Jeffrey is and I think I am, firing people is It's brutal. You can't sleep. You're thinking about it all the time. Cause it's, it's like their life, their families, their reputation, all that stuff you're thinking about. So it's really hard. And if you've never done it before, it's even harder. The first person I ever fired, it was a person in a leadership role at Dropbox and was clearly not delivering results. Sequoia basically staged intervention with me. So Brian Schreier, who was on our board was like, what is wrong? He's like, what's wrong with you? Why are you not? And I had all sorts of excuses, which there was some basis to them, but they were excuses. And he said, listen, Alfred and I are going to come up and have dinner with you. We just want to talk to you about it. We're sitting down for two minutes, and Alfred's like, okay, just walk, CJ, just walk me throu…

AI assessment note: “You can't use that as a generic standard, especially when you're early”

Q you said about your 40 years there and that incredible career. Respectfully, for someone like both of you with incredible stellar backgrounds, I would be leaning into the operators make the best investors and look at us with our CVs, but you guys have said to me before, operating experience becomes irrelevant very fast. Wasn't where I thought you were going to take that. Why does it become irrelevant fast?

A Okay, so I'll explain why it becomes irrelevant fast, and then I'll also tell you why we're kind of talking our own book at the same time, because that, that's a piece of it we didn't talk about. So it becomes irrelevant fast because the world changes, right? The tools you use, the platforms you're building on, the platforms you're marketing on, uh, the competitive dynamics, all of those things change really quickly, right? So when someone sees, uh, a marketing trick work, Immediately, thousands of people pile into that, into that tactic, and they commoditize it, or they make it irrelevant, or the platform gets frustrated by the, by the tactic and the, in the way they perceive it as abuse, and they shut it down. And so, what ends up happening is, you know, I'll give you one example. I get asked all the time about something that, um, that Drew had done early in Dropbox about, um, you know, the referral program. Where, hey, you know, you know, that model where, um, it was a mutual referral program where if, uh, if, if I recommended Dropbox to you and used it, we would both get extra storage. And I said, yeah, it's great. I mean, I can't think of another company at scale that's been successful with that, but it was an amazing tactic and it was responsible for a lot of, you know, or, or good, you know, reasonable chunk of early growth. Um, but you know, we also had like 50 other th…

AI assessment note: “it becomes irrelevant fast because the world changes, right? The tools you use”

Q Yeah. Do you agree when there's doubt, there's no doubt?

A Look, if you're a rigorous, like, if you have super high expectations, everyone's gonna come up short at some moment in time. You can't use that as a generic standard, especially when you're early and you haven't managed many people, and you're an empathetic person. So let's just take that as a, because there are many people in our business who are not empathetic, and for them, for their little Aspergerian, they can fire someone without thinking too hard about it. But for people who are empathetic, which I think Jeffrey is and I think I am, firing people is It's brutal. You can't sleep. You're thinking about it all the time. Cause it's, it's like their life, their families, their reputation, all that stuff you're thinking about. So it's really hard. And if you've never done it before, it's even harder. The first person I ever fired, it was a person in a leadership role at Dropbox and was clearly not delivering results. Sequoia basically staged intervention with me. So Brian Schreier, who was on our board was like, what is wrong? He's like, what's wrong with you? Why are you not? And I had all sorts of excuses, which there was some basis to them, but they were excuses. And he said, listen, Alfred and I are going to come up and have dinner with you. We just want to talk to you about it. We're sitting down for two minutes, and Alfred's like, okay, just walk, CJ, just walk me throu…

AI assessment note: “You can't use that as a generic standard, especially when you're early”

Q You said about recruiting people there. What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you started hiring and recruiting top talent?

A So, you know, the, the person who I actually thought was the most insightful interviewer of, um, you know, normal team members was Arash. Uh, who was the co-founder and CTO at Dropbox. Arash is the most, um, you know, most challenging interviewer I think most, you know, most people interviewed with him have ever experienced, because he'd be on his laptop the whole time, he wouldn't look at you, and somehow he would intuit things about you that you probably didn't even know about yourself. It was, he's a pretty remarkable guy in that sense, and he was actually the person who kept the talent bar at Dropbox as high as he did. Like, like Dropbox has that well-earned reputation for being a place where lots of talented people worked, and it, it would have, the bar would have easily come down if it wasn't for him. So I would say that, you know, being rigorous on keeping that talent bar high is super important, and then beyond that, work ethic, passion, intensity, finding people who are working for you because they're really excited about what you're doing, and not because you're a hot company, that's, that, I mean, if I was to say one thing, that would be That would be the one thing.

AI assessment note: “being rigorous on keeping that talent bar high is super important”

Q of companies that are at Series B stage with money, like capital reserves, because they've raised preemptive rounds and they have no product market fit. We're going to see a wave of Series B investors ask for their cash back. My question to you is, though, we're going to see, kind of, the living dead in this new generation. What do you do if you're a living dead company today?

A This is the hardest part of the whole thing, is there is no doubt That one or two of those living dead companies will figure out a spectacular pivot over the next decade and builds unbelievable products that millions or tens of millions or hundreds of millions of people use. That's one or two out of probably what will end up being like a thousand living dead companies. And so the irony of it, you basically have a situation where the people that should fight on, God bless, go for it, keep trying. But there's a whole bunch of people who are doing it for the wrong reasons. Not that they have some sort of profound idea or some belief in the future, but rather feel some social pressure, or they don't know what else they'll do with their life, and that's gonna be a really bad thing for a lot of people.

AI assessment note: “the people that should fight on, God bless, go for it, keep trying.”

Q get much love back for that. But my question to you. No, no, I know. I agree with you totally. My question to you is though, when you think about that, when you think about that, um, you know, we're going to see kind of the living dead in this new generation. What do you do if you're a living dead company today? I'm too interested to hear your thoughts.

A Here, this is the hardest part of the whole thing is there is no doubt that one or two of those living dead companies will figure out a spectacular pivot over the next decade and builds unbelievable products that millions or tens of millions or hundreds of millions of people use. And that's one or two out of probably what will end up being like a thousand living dead companies. And so the irony of it is that You basically have a situation where, um, the, the, the people that should fight on, You know, God bless. Go for it. Keep, keep trying. But, but there's a whole bunch of people who are doing it for the wrong reasons. Not that they have some sort of profound idea or some belief in the future, but rather feel some social pressure or they don't know what else they'll do with their life or things of that nature. And that's going to be a really bad thing for a lot of people.

AI assessment note: “the people that should fight on, You know, God bless. Go for it.”

Q And he's like, he's, he's like, who are you?

A So, so the, so basically he gets in the one night, Jeffrey and I had had a full day of work at that point. And the next morning, Jeffrey and I are both in the gym at, you know, whatever, you know, I think it was actually like five-thirty or something like that. And we're cranking away. We were in there for probably an hour at this point. And he rolls in. And he just looks at us, and he was like, oh, you guys are already here? And it was like, you could see, like, he was like, oh, this is crazy. And then, and then he left after some period of time, and we were still there. And afterwards he was laughing. He was like, you know, he's like, I guess I just realized there's another gear. And I think that's actually the biggest thing that's missing from, from remote work is there, there are things that I learned from watching, um, working for some of the best people in our business or other businesses, you know, someone you had on a few months ago, Harry, uh, Scott Sandell. Uh, from NEA. So I worked for Scott, um, and started in 2008, from 2008 to 2010. One of the most amazing people I've ever worked with. Four. And Scott was the kind of guy who could connect dots Like, just the fastest I've ever seen. But if I wasn't with him all the time, the reason he and I got so close is I was one of the later people, I mean it's venture, so I would stay, I was later in the office, and he would a…

AI assessment note: “he just looks at us, and he was like, oh, you guys are already here?”

Q thank you so much for joining me today. I'm going to start, and I'm going to direct questions, quite strictly state, because it's a very rare time for us to have two people on the show. I want to start with, how did you make your way into the world of tech, and come to both co-found Wanda? And so, Sujay, let's start with you, and then move to Jeffrey.

A I grew up in tech area. I was basically born into it. My dad was an immigrant engineer. Your classic Silicon Valley story came with very little. Started a company in 1988 in an era where it was really hard for folks with his background to get venture funding, so he actually, he and his three co-founders, they were Taiwanese, he was Indian, couldn't raise a dime, they bootstrapped it, and five years later it was the world's largest chipset maker. 40% of the personal computers in the world had their chipset. The funny thing about the Valley is these stories get forgotten really fast because of creative destruction, and then he started a software company in 1996, Which, crazy story, went public on the day the NASDAQ peaked in 2000, the same day. And so it was not too dissimilar than this last year. It was 90, something like that million or so of what you would call ARR today. Mega enterprise accounts, Cisco, BMW, IBM, LVMH, accounts like that. In the first day, its market cap was about five billion dollars. They raised something like two hundred million dollars in the IPO. Two years later, it was trading for a market cap of two hundred million dollars.

AI assessment note: “I grew up in tech area. I was basically born into it.”

Q get much love back for that. But my question to you. No, no, I know. I agree with you totally. My question to you is though, when you think about that, when you think about that, um, you know, we're going to see kind of the living dead in this new generation. What do you do if you're a living dead company today? I'm too interested to hear your thoughts.

A Here, this is the hardest part of the whole thing is there is no doubt that one or two of those living dead companies will figure out a spectacular pivot over the next decade and builds unbelievable products that millions or tens of millions or hundreds of millions of people use. And that's one or two out of probably what will end up being like a thousand living dead companies. And so the irony of it is that You basically have a situation where, um, the, the, the people that should fight on, You know, God bless. Go for it. Keep, keep trying. But, but there's a whole bunch of people who are doing it for the wrong reasons. Not that they have some sort of profound idea or some belief in the future, but rather feel some social pressure or they don't know what else they'll do with their life or things of that nature. And that's going to be a really bad thing for a lot of people.

AI assessment note: “the people that should fight on, You know, God bless. Go for it.”

Q thank you so much for joining me today. I'm going to start, and I'm going to direct questions, quite strictly state, because it's a very rare time for us to have two people on the show. I want to start with, how did you make your way into the world of tech, and come to both co-found Wanda? And so, Sujay, let's start with you, and then move to Jeffrey.

A I grew up in tech area. I was basically born into it. My dad was an immigrant engineer. Your classic Silicon Valley story came with very little. Started a company in 1988 in an era where it was really hard for folks with his background to get venture funding, so he actually, he and his three co-founders, they were Taiwanese, he was Indian, couldn't raise a dime, they bootstrapped it, and five years later it was the world's largest chipset maker. 40% of the personal computers in the world had their chipset. The funny thing about the Valley is these stories get forgotten really fast because of creative destruction, and then he started a software company in 1996, Which, crazy story, went public on the day the NASDAQ peaked in 2000, the same day. And so it was not too dissimilar than this last year. It was 90, something like that million or so of what you would call ARR today. Mega enterprise accounts, Cisco, BMW, IBM, LVMH, accounts like that. In the first day, its market cap was about five billion dollars. They raised something like two hundred million dollars in the IPO. Two years later, it was trading for a market cap of two hundred million dollars.

AI assessment note: “I grew up in tech area. I was basically born into it. My dad”

Q Awesome. Well, listen, I'm going to start, and I'm going to direct questions quite strictly today, because we're going to have, it's a very rare time for us to have two people on the show. So I want to start with, how did you make your way into the world of tech and come to both co-found wonder? And so Sujay, let's start with you and then move to Jeffrey.

A Well, I, I grew up in tech, Harry. I've been, I was basically born into it. My dad was an immigrant engineer. Uh, you know, your classic Silicon Valley story came with very little, um, started a company, uh, in an era where it was really hard, uh, for, for folks with his background to, to get venture funding. So he actually, he and his three co-founders who were, they were Taiwanese, he was Indian, uh, couldn't raise a dime Um, they bootstrapped it, and five years later it was the world's largest chipset maker. 40% of the personal computers in the world had their chipset. You know, the funny thing about the Valley is these stories get forgotten really fast because of creative destruction. Um, and then he started a software company in 1996, which, um, crazy story, went public on the day the Nasdaq peaked in 2000. The, the single, the same day. And so it was, Uh, not too dissimilar than this last year. It was a hundred, you know, called 90, something like that million or so of, of what you would call ARR today. Mega enterprise accounts, Cisco, BMW, IBM, LVMH, accounts like that. And in the first day, its market cap was about five billion dollars. And they raised something like two hundred million dollars in the IPO. Two years later, it was trading for a market cap of two hundred million dollars. The cash, cash in the bank. So I've seen the, you know, I grew up, I grew up in this …

AI assessment note: “I grew up in tech, Harry. I've been, I was basically born into it.”

Q CJ, what about you? Zomash said that you'd have different answers.

A So, uh, when I was at Dropbox, one of the large, I won't say who, but one of the largest investors in the world In tech, uh, told me that they had run a survey of all the investments they'd ever made. And, uh, the founders that didn't actually talk to them, refused to take their calls, were the ones that were the most successful, and they didn't, they didn't really know how to process that emotionally. I'm a Silicon Valley guy. I've been around this game for a long time, and the way you would launch a company in, in my, in, you know, in my universe is a little bit different, as Jeffrey knows, and he and I would disagree on this, uh, at the time.

AI assessment note: “the way you would launch a company in, in my, in, you know, in my universe”

Q CJ, what about you? Zomash said that you'd have different answers.

A So, uh, when I was at Dropbox, one of the large, I won't say who, but one of the largest investors in the world In tech, uh, told me that they had run a survey of all the investments they'd ever made. And, uh, the founders that didn't actually talk to them, refused to take their calls, were the ones that were the most successful, and they didn't, they didn't really know how to process that emotionally. I'm a Silicon Valley guy. I've been around this game for a long time, and the way you would launch a company in, in my, in, you know, in my universe is a little bit different, as Jeffrey knows, and he and I would disagree on this, uh, at the time.

AI assessment note: “the way you would launch a company in, in my, in, you know, in my universe is a little bit different”