The Exchanges

Q What does it look like from there? Does usage just go skyrocket from the moment you start?

A No, no. So when we released it, nothing happens. Cause no one knew about it. Right. So it was a very anticlimactic, uh, uh, anticlimactic moment. Um, but the, the, what, what we started doing at a certain point, you know, sitting with the team and it's like, Hey, we built this great product. We know there's something special here. What the fuck do we do? And I think as an entrepreneur, you sort of have to like work with the resources that are around you. You have to make the most of what you have. And for us, it's like, we all had friends. So I was like, alright, let's just start there. Everyone take out your phone. Text. 300 friends. Or whoever you have. Text your entire address book. Um, and I think the thing that we texted was, uh, download this app and thank me later. Sort of wanted to create this, like, FOMO mysteriousness. Um, and I think in total we texted 500 people. Over the course of a few days, uh, We, we had, I think it was like, 700 signups. I sort of looked at the team, like, did anyone text anyone else? Like, where did this additional come from? And we realized that it started going viral amongst our close group of friends. And then what we started to see, which was sort of confirmation of this thesis that we had, That we could uncover connections that would have never existed if we remove these barriers. We started hearing that friends who already knew each othe…

AI assessment note: “No, no. So when we released it, nothing happens. Cause no one knew about it.”

Q So we have 700 people then. We have the initial spark, and we start to see that outgrow from the core. What happens then? How do we grow fuel on the fire?

A So then, so first of all, Tinder, Tinder was a relatively complicated product to market because it is very much location specific and you're building network effects, right? So, you know, you, this, the strength of the network, you don't want random people just sort of downloading the app and never opening it again. Right? So, so you need a sort of strong connection amongst So we kept thinking, like, what are, what are areas where, um, groups of friends or, or similar people sort of gather and congregate? And one of those are parties. And, um, an intern of ours was, was, uh, in college at the time and his friend who was sort of like, she was the, one of the most popular people at USC was having a big birthday party with like, you know, I think it was like a thousand people were invited to this party. So we, we told her, we're like, look, we'll, we'll pay for the party. We'll throw the party. Um, but in exchange under one condition, Um, you have to do it at another location. So we shuttled all the students to another location where we had a bigger venue and we can invite more people. But the other, the other condition was that no one gets into the door unless they have Tinder on their phone. So we literally had bouncers at the door that, you know, whether you were invited or not, anyone can come in, but you needed to have Tinder installed on your phone. Now, no one even knew wha…

AI assessment note: “no one gets into the door unless they have Tinder on their phone”

Q How effective was paid in the early days? I'm just thinking about what you said there on constraints. If you don't have the constraints, you could have spent a lot of money on paid.

A It was highly effective. Our perspective on paid features was the only reason we would charge you Is if charging you for that feature made the ecosystem better, meaning if we gave that capability to free to everyone, it would actually dilute the quality of the ecosystem. The first feature we launched that really started making a lot of money was the super link. So we wanted to have this signal that you're not just someone I swiped right on, you're extra special. I'm not just, like, any Joe Schmo. Like, I actually, it's sort of, like, in the real world, I can walk up to someone and say, hey, what's up? Or I can walk up to someone and maybe this might not be a good idea and say, you know what, like, I feel this strong connection. Like, I really, really, like, please, you know, like, I really like you. Like, there was sort of, like, the next level of romance. So that was what the, um, that was what the super like was. But if we actually gave it to free, for free to everyone, It would have no value. So we gave one free to everyone, and then we charged if you wanted to super like again. So what the one free did is it took away the desperation. So someone didn't know, did I use my one free on you or did actually spend money to get your attention, which could make me look desperate. So it gave me the sort of excuse like the out, but then I can spend money to buy more super likes and s…

AI assessment note: “It was highly effective. Our perspective on paid features was the only reason we would charge”

Q So we have 700 people then. We have the initial spark, and we start to see that outgrow from the core. What happens then? How do we grow fuel on the fire?

A So then, so first of all, Tinder, Tinder was a relatively complicated product to market because it is very much location specific and you're building network effects, right? So, you know, you, this, the strength of the network, you don't want random people just sort of downloading the app and never opening it again. Right? So, so you need a sort of strong connection amongst So we kept thinking, like, what are, what are areas where, um, groups of friends or, or similar people sort of gather and congregate? And one of those are parties. And, um, an intern of ours was, was, uh, in college at the time and his friend who was sort of like, she was the, one of the most popular people at USC was having a big birthday party with like, you know, I think it was like a thousand people were invited to this party. So we, we told her, we're like, look, we'll, we'll pay for the party. We'll throw the party. Um, but in exchange under one condition, Um, you have to do it at another location. So we shuttled all the students to another location where we had a bigger venue and we can invite more people. But the other, the other condition was that no one gets into the door unless they have Tinder on their phone. So we literally had bouncers at the door that, you know, whether you were invited or not, anyone can come in, but you needed to have Tinder installed on your phone. Now, no one even knew wha…

AI assessment note: “we literally had bouncers at the door that... you needed to have Tinder installed”

Q What was the thing that didn't work biggest and what did you learn from it?

A So the, one of the biggest things, okay, so in, in the early days, very few people know this, but, but we had A lot of every user sort of got to the point where they had a lot of matches, where it was almost like you would open the app and you're like, I don't want to meet someone new. I need to make sense of all the people who already want to connect with me. So we started shifting our focus to like post-match and one of, and what we wanted to do is create more moments where you could get to know your matches and find opportunities for connection. So we created this product called moments. Which was sort of Instagram stories before Instagram stories. You could, uh, share a moment, like something you're doing in the real world, and it was an expiring, 24 hour moment, and people could reply to it, and your matches could be like, oh, you know, great. Um, and we, we all love the product so much that we were like, you know what? Maybe this could be for friends. Maybe we let Tinder be more than just You know, r, romantic connections. Maybe you can add your friends and you can share moments with your friends. So we sort of, we sort of tried to shift from a dating product to a social network, and we very quickly learned we have no business doing that. Our brand, our mission, our thesis is very much about creating new connections, introducing you to someone new. We weren't in the busin…

AI assessment note: “we sort of tried to shift from a dating product to a social network”

Q have to touch on, because you said that in a kind of wonderfully calm and cavalier manner, um, how do you feel about founder-led companies being so central to enduring success? This is something that, you know, we had Delian at Founders Fund really eulogize on in terms of the importance of it, and many do, but others say no. How do you feel about it has to be founder-led?

A Founders are really good at keeping and reiterating the mission. Because they care the most. Sometimes, you know, founder market fit, team market fit is essential. When it is your personal story, which it often is for founders, it's, it's, it's another level of storytelling. And it doesn't mean that the founder is the best person to execute it. I actually think great founders put the company before themselves and are intellectually honest and self-aware enough to say, Hey, you know what? Maybe I've taken it to this point and there's someone else better than me to take it to the next point. I don't believe that a founder is forever. I think the founder energy is required for success. And I think over time you can have different founders. You know, you, you, you, you could, you, you have people who can come into an organization with a new vision, a better vision. And I think you would call them a founder at that moment in time.

AI assessment note: “I don't believe that a founder is forever.”

Q ask, I was thinking this ever since you said it, but I so agree with you when you said about product market fit comes in kind of chapters. When you look back on the different chapters, which was the hardest one? Was it international expansion? New city? If so, what city? What country? Was it new product? If so, what product? What segment was the hardest in unlocking the next?

A International expansion was, was one of the hardest things to wrap our head around because first of all, building a global organization is not easy. Building a global team and making people in another country feel like they are part of the team, even though the executive team isn't there, you know, sitting with them. That's not an easy thing, but it was particularly difficult around the Tinder product because in the beginning, in the early days, we thought localization meant that the language of the app had to adapt to the language of the user, but localization is much more than that. Because particularly around social human connection and relationships, there are cultural differences in everywhere in the world, which means the product had to adapt to meet those cultural differences, which means Tinder was slightly different as a product in every country, which means we had many product organizations servicing the same core product

AI assessment note: “International expansion was, was one of the hardest things to wrap our head around”

Q What was the thing that didn't work biggest and what did you learn from it?

A So the, one of the biggest things, okay, so in, in the early days, very few people know this, but, but we had A lot of every user sort of got to the point where they had a lot of matches, where it was almost like you would open the app and you're like, I don't want to meet someone new. I need to make sense of all the people who already want to connect with me. So we started shifting our focus to like post-match and one of, and what we wanted to do is create more moments where you could get to know your matches and find opportunities for connection. So we created this product called moments. Which was sort of Instagram stories before Instagram stories. You could, uh, share a moment, like something you're doing in the real world, and it was an expiring, 24 hour moment, and people could reply to it, and your matches could be like, oh, you know, great. Um, and we, we all love the product so much that we were like, you know what? Maybe this could be for friends. Maybe we let Tinder be more than just You know, r, romantic connections. Maybe you can add your friends and you can share moments with your friends. So we sort of, we sort of tried to shift from a dating product to a social network, and we very quickly learned we have no business doing that. Our brand, our mission, our thesis is very much about creating new connections, introducing you to someone new. We weren't in the busin…

AI assessment note: “we very quickly learned we have no business doing that”

Q What do people not understand about wealth that they should do? Final one.

A I think if you're not careful, so first of all, wealth does not bring you happiness. Meaning brings you happiness. Wealth can create meaning up to a certain point. Um, or it could give you freedom to sort of create meaning up to certain points, but wealth on its own does not bring happiness. And I think the other thing people don't ask enough is what is wealth? Am I, if I have great relationships in my life, I have a job that I absolutely love. I feel like I'm making a contribution to those around me. I'm giving, I'm living a life of meaning and purpose. Am I wealthy? Even if I don't have a lot in my bank account, I would say, yeah, you're wealthy. So I think, I think people also have to question what is wealth. Is wealth the Bugatti? Is wealth the yacht? Well, if the person sitting in the yacht has cancerous relationships and is secretly really lonely and isolated and has a lot of noise and has no freedom and no time to be thoughtful, then is that wealth?

AI assessment note: “wealth does not bring you happiness. Meaning brings you happiness.”

Q What was the strangest product alteration that you had to make?

A I think the strangest thing was that in, I'll give you two stories. So in, in Korea, group dating is actually the, like the, I don't know if it is now, but back then when we were looking at it, that's like the socially accepted norm. Like, it's actually, it's actually very rare that I would go out one-on-one. It's usually friends or double dates. Like, we're going out as a group. So group dating was a huge thing. Which, like, so we had to, like, really think about that experience, like, reorient Tinder as a group dating, not as an individual dating. Um, so that was, but then what was interesting as we, as we, as we reoriented that, it got us thinking like, well, could that be a thing everywhere else? Maybe that's actually more effective means of connecting. So can we bring group dating? Can we make that a thing? Can we make that easy? I mean, naturally, a lot of the times we go out with our friends, you know, and, but, you know, we don't really double date until it's later into the, into the relationship. So that was one thing. That was interesting to tackle. Another thing was that in India, it was Not really like there was a system of dating and marriage that was, uh, very much curated by your parents, your parents decide. And I think that was a moment in time where we were like, Hey, we could, we could adapt the product to that, but actually no, we're, we're not going to, bec…

AI assessment note: “reorient Tinder as a group dating, not as an individual dating”

Q Do you not agree that we have let diversity invade meritocracy?

A I think we've had identity politics invade meritocracy. I think we want to live in a society where I am judged not based on my identity, my age, who I am, but I'm judged based on my contribution and the merits of my Work. And what's beautiful about tech and innovation is that you have an ecosystem, you know, where in my case, you could be a young kid who's, or in my parents' case, they came to this country with 20 dollars in their pockets and had the opportunity regardless of their background To work hard and succeed. And that is the American dream that, that it's the underdog story that you can, you can overcome obstacles and pursue your happiness without your identity being a limiting factor. I don't think we're a perfect meritocracy. I think we need to improve our meritocracy and we need to have equal, more equal opportunity. Um, but I think equal outcome is a very bad thing.

AI assessment note: “I think we've had identity politics invade meritocracy.”

Q think about the inspiration, we forget today just how revolutionary the swipe was. Um, I might have been on a swipe swipe before this interview, um, which shows you the importance you have to pay if you want to be successful on dating apps today. But, um, it was such an innovation. Tell me, what was the inspiration behind Tinder? And when you go back, what did that look like?

A When, before I started Tinder, I'd just sold a company, and was thinking again, what is next? Reinvention. And around that time, the mobile phone, the iPhone had just come out, had been in the market for a few years, and it was really obvious, maybe this was a little early thought at the time, that this thing is going to change everything. The, the idea that we have, um, the world's most powerful computer in our hands with us all the time was going bound to change the way we interacted with each other in the world. But I also saw very early that there were some potentially bad outcomes. Of, of that power. Um, you know, with great power comes great responsibility, and I think I saw very early that as much as the phone was connecting us, it was also separating us from the real world. You know, I'd sit at restaurants and I would just like observe my friends were, you know, heads down in their phone. It was the weirdest fucking thing. We're all together in a table, but everyone's heads down in their phone. And so, you know, for me, I, I was obsessed with this notion of how can the phone actually empower the real world and not take us away from it? So I had this insight One day, just kind of hanging around looking at my friends on their phone, um, at a restaurant, I'm like, how can this phone help me connect with people around me? And I realized there was a group of girls at the tab…

AI assessment note: “how can this phone help me connect with people around me?”

Q What does it look like from there? Does usage just go skyrocket from the moment you start?

A No, no. So when we released it, nothing happens. Cause no one knew about it. Right. So it was a very anticlimactic, uh, uh, anticlimactic moment. Um, but the, the, what, what we started doing at a certain point, you know, sitting with the team and it's like, Hey, we built this great product. We know there's something special here. What the fuck do we do? And I think as an entrepreneur, you sort of have to like work with the resources that are around you. You have to make the most of what you have. And for us, it's like, we all had friends. So I was like, alright, let's just start there. Everyone take out your phone. Text. 300 friends. Or whoever you have. Text your entire address book. Um, and I think the thing that we texted was, uh, download this app and thank me later. Sort of wanted to create this, like, FOMO mysteriousness. Um, and I think in total we texted 500 people. Over the course of a few days, uh, We, we had, I think it was like, 700 signups. I sort of looked at the team, like, did anyone text anyone else? Like, where did this additional come from? And we realized that it started going viral amongst our close group of friends. And then what we started to see, which was sort of confirmation of this thesis that we had, That we could uncover connections that would have never existed if we remove these barriers. We started hearing that friends who already knew each othe…

AI assessment note: “No, no. So when we released it, nothing happens. Cause no one knew about it.”

Q On the product for, first of all, we do distribution. You know, a generation has been told about the lean startup, just ship, get it out there, see what works. A lot of other people say, no, actually, you need to be a lot more of a craftsperson and really build a great product experience and be very deliberate about it. Which side of the fence do you sit on?

A Well, first of all, you gotta be very clear about the problem that you are solving. And I think you have to feel as a founder, a connection to that problem. You have to be the customer. I think products are incubated and grow in phases and phase one is that you're using it and the team is using it and that you have, you have product team fit. And then I think once you cross that boundary, then I think you could go to like product friends fit. And then I think once you cross that boundary and it's working amongst your friends or, you know, network of close customers, then I think you slowly start expanding it. The idea of throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks is a very soulless, you know, effort. I, I, I don't, I don't subscribe to that. Um, I think you have to have a clear vision test, iterate the vision and don't put the cart before the horse. If it's not ready for a million people, you don't want to give it to a million. You want to slowly start expanding your circle of reach and test at every step. So product market fit isn't one moment in time. Product market fit is a constant iterative process because as the, as the product grows, it sort of faces new challenges at scale. And just because it worked with a thousand people doesn't mean it'll work with a million people. It doesn't mean it'll work with a billion people. Um, so, you know, and I think the idea of MVP,…

AI assessment note: “The idea of throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks is a very soulless”

Q have to touch on, because you said that in a kind of wonderfully calm and cavalier manner, um, how do you feel about founder-led companies being so central to enduring success? This is something that, you know, we had Delian at Founders Fund really eulogize on in terms of the importance of it, and many do, but others say no. How do you feel about it has to be founder-led?

A Founders are really good at keeping and reiterating the mission. Because they care the most. Sometimes, you know, founder market fit, team market fit is essential. When it is your personal story, which it often is for founders, it's, it's, it's another level of storytelling. And it doesn't mean that the founder is the best person to execute it. I actually think great founders put the company before themselves and are intellectually honest and self-aware enough to say, Hey, you know what? Maybe I've taken it to this point and there's someone else better than me to take it to the next point. I don't believe that a founder is forever. I think the founder energy is required for success. And I think over time you can have different founders. You know, you, you, you, you could, you, you have people who can come into an organization with a new vision, a better vision. And I think you would call them a founder at that moment in time.

AI assessment note: “I don't believe that a founder is forever.”

Q ask, I was thinking this ever since you said it, but I so agree with you when you said about product market fit comes in kind of chapters. When you look back on the different chapters, which was the hardest one? Was it international expansion? New city? If so, what city? What country? Was it new product? If so, what product? What segment was the hardest in unlocking the next?

A International expansion was, was one of the hardest things to wrap our head around because first of all, building a global organization is not easy. Building a global team and making people in another country feel like they are part of the team, even though the executive team isn't there, you know, sitting with them. That's not an easy thing, but it was particularly difficult around the Tinder product because in the beginning, in the early days, we thought localization meant that the language of the app had to adapt to the language of the user, but localization is much more than that. Because particularly around social human connection and relationships, there are cultural differences in everywhere in the world, which means the product had to adapt to meet those cultural differences, which means Tinder was slightly different as a product in every country, which means we had many product organizations servicing the same core product

AI assessment note: “International expansion was, was one of the hardest things to wrap our head around”

Q Are you proud of the Tinder product today?

A I haven't been there in a long time, so like, would I look at the product and say I'm proud of the existing iteration of the product? Um, I, you know, I think I would look at the product now and say, fuck, like all the missed opportunity, because I think when, when the core team, when I left and then others left, there was a lot of unfinished business. You know, like we, we had a roadmap that I would say was like 10 years long. We knew once we achieve this, it's going to open the opportunity to this. It's going to open the opportunity to this. So I think I would look at the product right now and I would say it looks the same as when I left. That makes me sad because when I was there, when the team was there, actually we had a rule that every year we had to redesign the entire product. That was a rule. We, we would redesign the entire experience every year because we didn't want people to get bored and stagnant, and we didn't want to become complacent as a team. So we would have to have one major redesign every year, which then forced us to reimagine all the features. And I think it was brilliant to exercise because it kept upping, taking it to the next level. I think you see that in companies like Apple, There's this, um, commitment to always improving and perfecting, and the product is never done. The product is always at one percent good. And there's always so much more to do…

AI assessment note: “I think I would look at the product now and say, fuck, like all the missed opportunity”

Q Is swipe ventures and Tinder's approach to kind of really ensuring that you're at the forefront of disruption and ensuring that you remain the disruptive player in the industry? Is that, is that the role?

A Absolutely. So a lot of what I'm telling you, by the way, a lot of these realizations is what led to the desire to create swipe metrics. You know, the notion that, you know, you look at our team and our team is phenomenal and innovative and constantly thinking about what's, you know, ahead of the curve, but we're also distracted by the problems we have to solve today. And if there's no one within the organization thinking about five years down the road, it's very hard to prioritize a five-year goal. When you have so many actionable things you can do today. So part of what's the goal of swipe ventures is, is to think about what that next shift is and to make sure that we are either acquiring the next great platform that could disrupt us or that we're building it or, you know, we're making an investment in what we believe is going to be the change so that we don't find ourselves in a position that frankly, what we did to others in the space and that Tinder really disrupted the entire industry is Doesn't happen to us.

AI assessment note: “Absolutely. So a lot of what I'm telling you, by the way”

Q And then let's finish today on the next five years for you and for Tinder. What's in the roadmap ahead?

A So I think in the next year, uh, What you will see is definitely a focus on helping you go from a match to a quality relationship. You know, what we've done in our first five years of our existence, we've made it extremely easy to connect with someone new. You know, that was the hard part. That was the hardest part of the equation. We've made it easy. You can now get on Tinder and meet new people very easily. But now that you have all these matches in your inbox, we want to help you make sense of that. Filter through the noise and really get to the person that is going to result in the most meaningful connection. So I think a lot of our focus in the next year are unique and fun ways of accomplishing that. And then I would say on a five-year horizon, it would be to continuously make Tinder even more simple. And I know that that sounds crazy because Tinder is already very simple, but I think as technology gets better, as the ways we interact with, as AI and AR comes to fruition, I think two things happen with Tinder. Number one, we require less work to get to the same results or the same value, but Tinder also becomes more ingrained in our day-to-day lives. Meaning if I have a, whatever AR glasses or something that's allowing me to interact with the real world, you can see how Tinder is providing you with a real time experience in the real world where you are today and helping yo…

AI assessment note: “on a five-year horizon, it would be to continuously make Tinder even more simple”

Q And where you are today, a global brand and a global powerhouse, but Talk to me, Sean, because last year you announced Swipe Ventures, um, and you've also previously made angel investments in the likes of Proxy and Hutch. So I have to ask, how have you seen the development and evolution of your startup evaluation process and the decision-making process for you when looking at new startups?

A Yeah, great question. I think one of the best things I was able to do in transitioning into the chairman role, which, you know, my objective was really to just create time and space for myself. Was able to sort of reflect on the last five years. You know, you don't get a lot of time, you know, when you're sort of in the grind and you're executing human nature, we don't really leave room to just stop and reflect. And I think a lot of my investment thesis is formed out of what I've experienced building Tinder and kind of reflecting on what values got us here. And to me, I gravitate towards founders and teams that are number one, Humble. They have a healthy degree of humility because I think humility allows you to sort of see the playing field clearly. You're not jaded by any preconceived notions. You're open to learning, you're open to listening, and you can think clearly, but also a healthy level of aggression and confidence. I think you look at all these great companies and they form out of humble people that are passionate about an area or space and And they're sort of exploring it, not because they want to be a billionaire, but they're exploring it out of love and passion, and they stumble upon learnings that then they leverage into solutions, and then they leverage into larger companies. I tend to stay away from teams doing it for the wrong reasons. Like, I think there's a l…

AI assessment note: “a lot of my investment thesis is formed out of what I've experienced building Tinder”

Q Is swipe ventures and Tinder's approach to kind of really ensuring that you're at the forefront of disruption and ensuring that you remain the disruptive player in the industry? Is that, is that the role?

A Absolutely. So a lot of what I'm telling you, by the way, a lot of these realizations is what led to the desire to create swipe metrics. You know, the notion that, you know, you look at our team and our team is phenomenal and innovative and constantly thinking about what's, you know, ahead of the curve, but we're also distracted by the problems we have to solve today. And if there's no one within the organization thinking about five years down the road, it's very hard to prioritize a five-year goal. When you have so many actionable things you can do today. So part of what's the goal of swipe ventures is, is to think about what that next shift is and to make sure that we are either acquiring the next great platform that could disrupt us or that we're building it or, you know, we're making an investment in what we believe is going to be the change so that we don't find ourselves in a position that frankly, what we did to others in the space and that Tinder really disrupted the entire industry is Doesn't happen to us.

AI assessment note: “to make sure that we are either acquiring the next great platform that could disrupt us”

Q What was the strangest product alteration that you had to make?

A I think the strangest thing was that in, I'll give you two stories. So in, in Korea, group dating is actually the, like the, I don't know if it is now, but back then when we were looking at it, that's like the socially accepted norm. Like, it's actually, it's actually very rare that I would go out one-on-one. It's usually friends or double dates. Like, we're going out as a group. So group dating was a huge thing. Which, like, so we had to, like, really think about that experience, like, reorient Tinder as a group dating, not as an individual dating. Um, so that was, but then what was interesting as we, as we, as we reoriented that, it got us thinking like, well, could that be a thing everywhere else? Maybe that's actually more effective means of connecting. So can we bring group dating? Can we make that a thing? Can we make that easy? I mean, naturally, a lot of the times we go out with our friends, you know, and, but, you know, we don't really double date until it's later into the, into the relationship. So that was one thing. That was interesting to tackle. Another thing was that in India, it was Not really like there was a system of dating and marriage that was, uh, very much curated by your parents, your parents decide. And I think that was a moment in time where we were like, Hey, we could, we could adapt the product to that, but actually no, we're, we're not going to, bec…

AI assessment note: “we had to, like, really think about that experience, like, reorient Tinder as a group dating”

Q think about the inspiration, we forget today just how revolutionary the swipe was. Um, I might have been on a swipe swipe before this interview, um, which shows you the importance you have to pay if you want to be successful on dating apps today. But, um, it was such an innovation. Tell me, what was the inspiration behind Tinder? And when you go back, what did that look like?

A When, before I started Tinder, I'd just sold a company, and was thinking again, what is next? Reinvention. And around that time, the mobile phone, the iPhone had just come out, had been in the market for a few years, and it was really obvious, maybe this was a little early thought at the time, that this thing is going to change everything. The, the idea that we have, um, the world's most powerful computer in our hands with us all the time was going bound to change the way we interacted with each other in the world. But I also saw very early that there were some potentially bad outcomes. Of, of that power. Um, you know, with great power comes great responsibility, and I think I saw very early that as much as the phone was connecting us, it was also separating us from the real world. You know, I'd sit at restaurants and I would just like observe my friends were, you know, heads down in their phone. It was the weirdest fucking thing. We're all together in a table, but everyone's heads down in their phone. And so, you know, for me, I, I was obsessed with this notion of how can the phone actually empower the real world and not take us away from it? So I had this insight One day, just kind of hanging around looking at my friends on their phone, um, at a restaurant, I'm like, how can this phone help me connect with people around me? And I realized there was a group of girls at the tab…

AI assessment note: “how can this phone help me connect with people around me?”

Q And where you are today, a global brand and a global powerhouse, but Talk to me, Sean, because last year you announced Swipe Ventures, um, and you've also previously made angel investments in the likes of Proxy and Hutch. So I have to ask, how have you seen the development and evolution of your startup evaluation process and the decision-making process for you when looking at new startups?

A Yeah, great question. I think one of the best things I was able to do in transitioning into the chairman role, which, you know, my objective was really to just create time and space for myself. Was able to sort of reflect on the last five years. You know, you don't get a lot of time, you know, when you're sort of in the grind and you're executing human nature, we don't really leave room to just stop and reflect. And I think a lot of my investment thesis is formed out of what I've experienced building Tinder and kind of reflecting on what values got us here. And to me, I gravitate towards founders and teams that are number one, Humble. They have a healthy degree of humility because I think humility allows you to sort of see the playing field clearly. You're not jaded by any preconceived notions. You're open to learning, you're open to listening, and you can think clearly, but also a healthy level of aggression and confidence. I think you look at all these great companies and they form out of humble people that are passionate about an area or space and And they're sort of exploring it, not because they want to be a billionaire, but they're exploring it out of love and passion, and they stumble upon learnings that then they leverage into solutions, and then they leverage into larger companies. I tend to stay away from teams doing it for the wrong reasons. Like, I think there's a l…

AI assessment note: “a lot of my investment thesis is formed out of what I've experienced”

Q Do you feel you have freedom of speech today?

A I think we do have freedom of speech. It is under attack now. Whether people actually use Their freedom of speech and feel safe to speak up is different story. I think, you know, courage, courage is, you know, there's a great Winston Churchill quote. Um, courage is the strength to stand up and speak, but also sit down and listen. So I think we need more of that. We need the courage to speak up, but we also need the courage to listen, and one thing that is, that makes America the greatest country in the world is our openness to debate, and debate leads to better ideas, and it leads to a stronger meritocracy, and when you have a cancel culture where people don't feel safe to speak up and speak their views, Or you have a culture where people don't, are not willing or tolerant of other people's views or sit down and listen, then the outcome's never going to be great. We've seen that story before. I think something that scares me that, you know, we talk a lot about freedom of speech, but we don't talk a lot about freedom, free will. I think right now social media platforms are to some extent violating my free will by algorithmically picking what content I see and not giving me choice in that equation. It's the equivalent of turning on the TV and Comcast deciding what I see, but I can't switch the channel. Can't switch from CNN to Fox news. There's no opt out button. There's no opt i…

AI assessment note: “I think we do have freedom of speech. It is under attack now.”

Q Are you proud of the Tinder product today?

A I haven't been there in a long time, so like, would I look at the product and say I'm proud of the existing iteration of the product? Um, I, you know, I think I would look at the product now and say, fuck, like all the missed opportunity, because I think when, when the core team, when I left and then others left, there was a lot of unfinished business. You know, like we, we had a roadmap that I would say was like 10 years long. We knew once we achieve this, it's going to open the opportunity to this. It's going to open the opportunity to this. So I think I would look at the product right now and I would say it looks the same as when I left. That makes me sad because when I was there, when the team was there, actually we had a rule that every year we had to redesign the entire product. That was a rule. We, we would redesign the entire experience every year because we didn't want people to get bored and stagnant, and we didn't want to become complacent as a team. So we would have to have one major redesign every year, which then forced us to reimagine all the features. And I think it was brilliant to exercise because it kept upping, taking it to the next level. I think you see that in companies like Apple, There's this, um, commitment to always improving and perfecting, and the product is never done. The product is always at one percent good. And there's always so much more to do…

AI assessment note: “I think I would look at the product now and say, fuck, like all the missed opportunity”

Q Do you think we give up too easily today?

A I think because we have more options than we have had in any moment in history, that increasingly we have the ability to switch and give up. Look, when we were, you go back in some moment of time, it's like you were in a tiny little village. If you're lucky, there was one person that you love, And cutting bait. I mean, where are we really going to go? You had to stick through it. Now you could quit and you could say, okay, I'm going to trade this for something better. But I think the reality is there is no Every relationship comes with challenges. It's just a question of which challenges. Once you stick through all the hard moments and you keep getting better and elevating, and then you look back and it's like with my wife, it's just like what we said about companies. Like all those challenges made us better. They brought us closer. We're stronger as a result. We're more resilient. You know, the other day, the other day, um, I got into a little thing with my wife and she had this moment. She's like, ah, like, is this going to always be a problem? I don't, you know, I'd like, are we going to get through this and everything? And I kind of looked at her, I'm like, You know, babe, we've been through way worse. We've overcome all these challenges. So the answer is yes. I mean, if this is like, you know, we've overcome every other challenge, every other moment where it's been like, o…

AI assessment note: “because we have more options than we have had in any moment in history”

Q Do you think we give up too easily today?

A I think because we have more options than we have had in any moment in history, that increasingly we have the ability to switch and give up. Look, when we were, you go back in some moment of time, it's like you were in a tiny little village. If you're lucky, there was one person that you love, And cutting bait. I mean, where are we really going to go? You had to stick through it. Now you could quit and you could say, okay, I'm going to trade this for something better. But I think the reality is there is no Every relationship comes with challenges. It's just a question of which challenges. Once you stick through all the hard moments and you keep getting better and elevating, and then you look back and it's like with my wife, it's just like what we said about companies. Like all those challenges made us better. They brought us closer. We're stronger as a result. We're more resilient. You know, the other day, the other day, um, I got into a little thing with my wife and she had this moment. She's like, ah, like, is this going to always be a problem? I don't, you know, I'd like, are we going to get through this and everything? And I kind of looked at her, I'm like, You know, babe, we've been through way worse. We've overcome all these challenges. So the answer is yes. I mean, if this is like, you know, we've overcome every other challenge, every other moment where it's been like, o…

AI assessment note: “increasingly we have the ability to switch and give up”

Q idea for you that I'm going to pitch you, and it's the first, the first interaction is always the hardest for me. I never Quite know what to say. An AI engine that can compute the profile of the girl and come up with the highest optimized first sentence or first interaction. But the question to you is, what would always be your starting line? I need your help here.

A You know, I'll tell you, I'll tell you, and I'm by no means an expert here. People mistake me for a dating expert. I'm definitely not the dating expert. Um, what I would say is, You know, I think what's important is when you match with someone, or even if you see someone in the real world, there's sort of two rules that I think always lead to the right outcome. One is really pay attention to who that person is and start the conversation by, you know, noticing something about them, you know, and there's a lot of information that Tinder users are giving in their photos and their profile and their bios and their common connections and make that connection, make that initial response personal. Maybe, maybe, Compliment them on something that you notice in their photos. And, you know, the second is be yourself. Be real. Because I think we are, as human beings, as civilization, better today than in any moment in history in feeling and sniffing out fakeness. You know, we get inundated with photos and social media and everything, and we know when a person is pretending or when a person is actually being treated themselves. And I think the sexiest thing today is to just be real and be yourself. And people pick up on that. At a subconscious level, they feel it. At a conscious level, they feel it. So to me, it's be yourself and also recognize that person and compliment them on something.

AI assessment note: “start the conversation by, you know, noticing something about them”

Q How did you define a retained user? You know, at Facebook they said, like, after five friends have been added, we count that as like a retained and activated user. How did you count a retained user?

A I think the, the, the thing that we really focused on is how many conversations we could drive. So, you know, there's swipe match. Talk. And the ultimate value proposition is that you're in a dialogue. So the number of unique conversations we were driving was, was one of the metrics we would look at a lot. Now up funnel, it was also, we did look at retention in the sense of what was Dow to Mao, Mao to, you know, wow to, to Mao. But over time, those metrics became less important. Um, the metrics that became more important were, uh, conversations matches sort of us delivering value, the metrics that measure true value and revenue, which is your desire to compensate us for that value retention on its own. I mean, you know, I think it's a, it is a problematic metric that could lead Sometimes if you're not careful to a lot more harm than a can good.

AI assessment note: “the number of unique conversations we were driving was, was one of the metrics”