The Exchanges

Q Can I ask you a question? Did you kind of know that you didn't have much money when you were growing up? Was that obvious to you in terms of kids at school having more, you not having much? Was that obvious?

A No, it wasn't. Uh, and then the, the, the reason is Well, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you two things. The reason is in, in Finland, more or less everyone's middle class. So that's kind of one thing. So you're not exposed to, at least at the time, and you know, we didn't have Instagram at the time. Uh, so you're not exposed to the extremes and what you see on TV and movies that the Hollywood, it's not the real world at, at least at the time. So, so you aren't really, at least at the time you weren't exposed to the extremes. I always felt comfortable. I had what I wanted. I had what I needed. So a couple of tools for sports, um, you know, whether it's cross country skiing or running, you need sneakers. Um, so I, I never felt like we were somehow missing out, surprisingly so. Uh, that said, I have to say the reason we had a farm was to subsidize our own food. So we wouldn't need to spend all the money at grocery stores. Uh, I also remember we never had a new car. We saved a lot of money for many years to be able to buy a used car. Uh, we did one vacation trip, uh, with, with an airplane, but we couldn't afford to travel as a family. So it was me and my dad one year. And then my mom and my sister the following year. And so obviously in today's context, this idea that you can't afford to fly all four, that you can have half the family this year and half the family next year, that sounds p…

AI assessment note: “No, it wasn't. Uh, and then the, the, the reason is”

Q What was it that opened your eyes to the world? Where did you get this sense of ambition and this desire to, to conquer more of the world than the, the, the farm in Finland?

A Well, first I should say, I've come to realize that I have a story. We all have a story. So the truth is, I don't know. I absolutely don't know. But obviously I have a story and a narrative behind that I think might be true. And so the story that I have is, you know, obviously I was reading a lot of magazines, computer magazines. I think even in Finland, you know, we had Fast Company and so forth. I could see that there's some, that there's a larger, bigger world out there. And I got very excited about computers through the pages of magazines. And I somehow convinced my parents to, uh, find the money to buy a Commodore 64. Uh, some of your listeners might be old enough to know that there was a computer called Commodore 64. So I actually got a computer before I turned 10. And, uh, that kind of opened my eyes to What might be possible with this magical tool, uh, called a computer, which obviously my parents had no idea about, and I, just as an, as an anecdote, um, I was so drawn into this screen and a computer and what was possible with it, whether that was programming or simple games, that of course my parents were always telling me, come back, you know, come back and come help us with With the fun work, because nothing's gonna ever come out of that. Like you're so addicted to that computer, which obviously, um, it's, it's been a fun line to drop to my mom and my parents, you kn…

AI assessment note: “reading a lot of magazines, computer magazines... that kind of opened my eyes”

Q Can I ask you a question? Did you kind of know that you didn't have much money when you were growing up? Was that obvious to you in terms of kids at school having more, you not having much? Was that obvious?

A No, it wasn't. Uh, and then the, the, the reason is Well, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you two things. The reason is in, in Finland, more or less everyone's middle class. So that's kind of one thing. So you're not exposed to, at least at the time, and you know, we didn't have Instagram at the time. Uh, so you're not exposed to the extremes and what you see on TV and movies that the Hollywood, it's not the real world at, at least at the time. So, so you aren't really, at least at the time you weren't exposed to the extremes. I always felt comfortable. I had what I wanted. I had what I needed. So a couple of tools for sports, um, you know, whether it's cross country skiing or running, you need sneakers. Um, so I, I never felt like we were somehow missing out, surprisingly so. Uh, that said, I have to say the reason we had a farm was to subsidize our own food. So we wouldn't need to spend all the money at grocery stores. Uh, I also remember we never had a new car. We saved a lot of money for many years to be able to buy a used car. Uh, we did one vacation trip, uh, with, with an airplane, but we couldn't afford to travel as a family. So it was me and my dad one year. And then my mom and my sister the following year. And so obviously in today's context, this idea that you can't afford to fly all four, that you can have half the family this year and half the family next year, that sounds p…

AI assessment note: “No, it wasn't. Uh, and then the, the, the reason is”

Q When you, when you dreamed of what could be, what was that dream? Was it the house? I'm just trying to understand, like, was it a desire to be with powerful people? Was it a desire to be in a big house? Was it a desire to have a beautiful wife? What, what was the dream?

A No, honestly, none of those. Um, the dream has always been about, like, creating something that attracts a lot of Um, use or value for others. And I'll, I'll give you the, the one example that I did. So when I was 15 or 16, I, uh, opened up and kind of hacked together the, one of the first, not the first, the one of the first BBS is a bulletin board systems in Finland. So, you know, obviously I was running that from my room. I hijacked my parents' phone line and then upgraded eventually to a 24 hour, uh, phone line. Uh, you know, BBS or bulletin board system. So you have modems and, you know, this is sort of the pre-internet people call in. So that was an example of a project, a dream that I wanted to build. I wanted to build something useful that many other people would, would use. And I, I charged some users for, for access and that gave me a ton of the satisfaction. Like, hey, I'm, I'm creating something. I can't explain where that satisfaction was coming from, but it wasn't just, oh, somebody paid for it. It was the, the act of creation, creating something that other people want and other people use. Uh, that's been a big part of the, the dreaming what could be. Uh, and honestly, now, twenty-plus years later, I, I can, and we can talk about, like, what I'm working on now, and the, the company I started before Virta, and, and some of the same drivers are still at the core of…

AI assessment note: “the dream has always been about, like, creating something that attracts a lot of”

Q know, we have 700,000 founders that listen to the show. That is a feeling that they dream of. You know, we're not allowed to say that it's about the money today, but for a good chunk it is, and there's nothing wrong with that, I don't think. For those that listen and have that moment of IPO and when you are technically liquid, um, how did that feel for you?

A Yeah, so, um, So truly I went public on New York Subjects in, um, and I had left my operational role, um, a few months before that. So I was still on the board. So I did not have a full-time job. So I was kind of a free agent by, uh, choice and by design. Um, I was living in New York, uh, in Chelsea with my, with my wife. We had no kids, and the company goes public, and yeah, there was some secondary sale as part of that, so sort of objectively speaking, um, there was some very liquid wealth created in that, you know, instant, instant moment. The two weeks after that, In, in, in my life were probably the worst that I've ever had in my life. And so here's, here's what happened. I remember it was one Tuesday or Thursday, random day in the middle of the week. Uh, I'm working, walking to Chelsea Pierce to do my morning workout at like 10 o'clock in the morning. Um, And I remember something wasn't working in our apartment, or whether it's the washing machine or something, something was just broken and was sort of annoying me. And I'm walking to Chelsea Pierce, uh, on, on Manhattan, and, and that feeling of that thing's not working was creating anxiety. And I was just feeling very, just disappointed about it. And then suddenly I feel this sort of panic attack is about to come over. I'm like, wait a second. I have a wonderful wife. I'm in my thirties. I have a ton of money in a bank. …

AI assessment note: “two weeks after that... were probably the worst that I've ever had”

Q Can you, can you take me to one of them? What happened and why did you get in that mindset?

A It is interesting. Uh, first 10 days was incredibly stormy. We were scared to death to flip the boat and cold and Pacific Ocean, by the way, it's not dolphins and rainbows and, and, and sunshine. It's, it's very cold, uh, windy, stormy. Um, so it was very stormy, windy, cold. And then also the wind was pushing so hard that despite our best efforts, While we were making about 40 miles a day, we were making like one mile a day towards the right direction and 40 miles to south. So we left like Northern California. So towards Mexico. So anyways, about a week of that, in my engineering mind, I was, it was doing the math. I'm like, we've done one mile a day and we have to get about 2000 miles west. So that means 2000 days. So, you know, that's six to seven years. Like this, this is not going to be happening. There's six to seven years. We had packed food for a hundred days. And I'm like, I, I, so I, I kind of lost the, the belief that this is possible. And I started unraveling. I remember little things like brushing my teeth every day. I was like, I, I'm not going to brush my teeth. It, psychologically, I started to sort of unravel. I'm like, this is mad, doesn't add up. It's just not happening. And my wife was encouraging to say, well, we'll, we'll just keep grinding. It's like, if it's a mile a day, Towards the right direction, it's a mile a day. If it's two miles, it's two miles. …

AI assessment note: “I kind of lost the, the belief that this is possible. And I started unraveling.”

Q I'd love to kick off today with, with your story. So how did you make your way into the world of early stage startups and come to found Verta?

A Well, I guess I was born this way. It's quite the opposite. I grew up on a farm in Finland, so very far from any kind of startups. And what got me into computers and I guess excited about building something For people to use was my very first computer Commodore, 64. And then later in my teen years, I opened and ran one of the first BBSs in Finland. So for your benefit, Harry, this was probably before your time when there was an internet. So there were BBSs. So I guess I knew early on that I wanted to be involved with tech and software and create something. These were just personal projects. And then it was, I think it was in 1998. I joined a startup in Finland. It was an online stockbroker. Sort of like the e-trade of Finland among the first 10 employees as a software guy. And it was basically a front row seat to see how this team built this company from scratch to actually an IPO in, in about two years. And that process was just absolutely captivating to me. And so then a couple of years later, I started my first software company. This was in Finland. We sold the company in 2002, but I can tell you it was not a huge success, but it was an amazing, absolutely amazing life experience to me personally. I had this dream the way actors and perhaps actresses want to go to Hollywood as an entrepreneur. I felt that, well, Silicon Valley is my Hollywood. I have to get there somewhere. …

AI assessment note: “I joined a startup in Finland... And so then a couple of years later, I started”

Q to start with a little bit of backstory because I think so much actually goes back to childhood. You know, I always remember My father and my family kind of instilling this, you'll be good enough when you live in a certain place. It was Chelsea for us in London. I'm just intrigued. Take me to your childhood. Where did you live? And how was that relationship with your parents?

A Yeah, well, I grew up in Finland, uh, about 200 miles northeast of Helsinki, very close to the wonderful border with, uh, Russia. Um, and so I, I grew up on a farm, um, and it wasn't a, It was a gentleman's farm. I guess I could say in that my parents were factory workers. Um, so we had a farm, uh, lots of manual labor. I was their manual labor. So very kind of humble beginnings, picking potatoes, feeding chickens. Um, and so, so that's kind of how, how, how I was growing up. And I would say two things about my upbringing in some ways. It was very kind of romantic in that, you know, growing up on a farm, I could climb the trees, and it was very safe, and like, it was a wonderful, wonderful, um, uh, place to live. I would say that that's sort of the one thing. But the second thing I would say, I absolutely had no professional role models, and the fact that I'm living in America today, you know, building a company, and I have been here in the States for more than 20 years. My, for my mom, it's still like, You know, I'm living in the moon or in the Mars. So it's a very, very kind of unlikely sequence of events. Uh, so my parents didn't go to high school. They weren't professionally trained. So I had absolutely no, uh, role model. So what might be possible beyond being a factory worker and, you know, picking potatoes, uh, to, to feed the family.

AI assessment note: “I grew up in Finland, uh, about 200 miles northeast of Helsinki”

Q Do you have a fundamental need to be liked? Is it like, I'm sure, is that part of it, which is creating products that people love, and then it's like, oh, I want to be liked.

A I think there's an element of that, but I would say, I think if I go to my core, you asked earlier, like upbringing, uh, it was humble, wonderful beginning beginnings, but feeling of unworthy, the moment I wake up, definitely was not there. So I'm on the very, very, uh, unnecessarily hard on myself, and I think one of the programming that I have, whether that's nature or nurture, is I have to earn the right to exist through my actions every day, and there's a lot of that kind of drive that's inside of me. Less so I want to be validated by others, but this kind of feeling of The fact that I exist as a human being, which should be enough, and honestly, it is enough. I can intellectually tell.

AI assessment note: “Less so I want to be validated by others, but this kind of feeling”

Q Is that why you do the sport? Like, you are, you are an intense athlete, and you do unbelievably hard things. Is that a desire to tell yourself that you're worthy? Like, I can do this.

A I think less so. So, so there's a couple of things that I, I allocate my life Uh, time. And one of those is, is, is sports and physical activities. And the reason I, I do all that and, you know, the race triathlons and cycling and rode a boat from California to Hawaii with my wife, uh, robot. And we can, we can talk about, talk about those, at least the narrative that I have. It, it, it, it, it's a couple of things. First one is, I want to experience the animal self, if that makes any sense. Breathing, sweating, the taste of blood in my mouth, and heart beating. At some level, you know, like in my bone marrow, that's a beautiful, beautiful feeling. And I sometimes jokingly tell people, I say, if you only have your body, To transport your brain from one Zoom meeting to another, that is a very, very poor existence. Like the fact that we have our bodies and we are able-bodied, I want to use that, like that feeling of using my entire body, suffering, sweating, heart beating. It is a beautiful thing to have, and I want to make most out of it. So that's one reason, um, I, I do a lot of sports and it is a very visceral kind of a bone marrow level feeling that I have. And then the second reason is, honestly, it is very addictive and just fundamentally makes me feel, um, both in my body and in my mind, um, very good. And it allows me to be way more focused when I just have to sit down a…

AI assessment note: “I think less so. So, so there's a couple of things”

Q When did money start to become important to you?

A I don't know if you believe my answer, but In some ways, never. I've always felt I've had enough at any given time because I've been pretty happy with With very little. That said, ever since I was a kid, I've dreamed of what could be, but that what could be has never been about. I wish I had 5000 dollars or 50,000 dollars or 500,000 dollars, but I've always dreamed of what could be in terms of living in a bigger circles, uh, creating something for others. So I've always dreamed of like this. Life on a farm, picking potatoes, uh, you know, having a job nine to five, getting drunk on a Friday evening, having hangover on a Saturday, going back to your factory work on a Monday morning. This is, this cannot be all there is to life. So I've certainly had that dreaming always going on as part of my operating system.

AI assessment note: “In some ways, never. I've always felt I've had enough”

Q When did you first make your real money? Like when was the first big hit of money for you?

A I and we sold a little bit secondary in kind of six figures, um, uh, with my company Trulia before it went public. Um, Uh, maybe that was, let's just say, 2010, 2009, 2008 or something like that. So we, we saw six figures in US dollars of, of, of secondary. And that's actually the only moment, the only single moment in my life where I felt or experienced this surge of, oh my God, there's, there's more money than I may ever need, which sounds funny to say, you can spend all the money in the world. Or there's more money than I, I, I ever thought I would, I would make in my life. That is the, the one and only moment when I've experienced that.

AI assessment note: “we sold a little bit secondary in kind of six figures”

Q know, we have 700,000 founders that listen to the show. That is a feeling that they dream of. You know, we're not allowed to say that it's about the money today, but for a good chunk it is, and there's nothing wrong with that, I don't think. For those that listen and have that moment of IPO and when you are technically liquid, um, how did that feel for you?

A Yeah, so, um, So truly I went public on New York Subjects in, um, and I had left my operational role, um, a few months before that. So I was still on the board. So I did not have a full-time job. So I was kind of a free agent by, uh, choice and by design. Um, I was living in New York, uh, in Chelsea with my, with my wife. We had no kids, and the company goes public, and yeah, there was some secondary sale as part of that, so sort of objectively speaking, um, there was some very liquid wealth created in that, you know, instant, instant moment. The two weeks after that, In, in, in my life were probably the worst that I've ever had in my life. And so here's, here's what happened. I remember it was one Tuesday or Thursday, random day in the middle of the week. Uh, I'm working, walking to Chelsea Pierce to do my morning workout at like 10 o'clock in the morning. Um, And I remember something wasn't working in our apartment, or whether it's the washing machine or something, something was just broken and was sort of annoying me. And I'm walking to Chelsea Pierce, uh, on, on Manhattan, and, and that feeling of that thing's not working was creating anxiety. And I was just feeling very, just disappointed about it. And then suddenly I feel this sort of panic attack is about to come over. I'm like, wait a second. I have a wonderful wife. I'm in my thirties. I have a ton of money in a bank. …

AI assessment note: “The two weeks after that, In, in, in my life were probably the worst”

Q Have you ever felt like I just don't want to do this anymore? Like actually, I, I just, I don't have the passion anymore for it.

A Yeah. I'll give you two examples. Uh, so yes, is, is the answer. I, I think, um, truly is, is basically, is an easy example to start briefly. So when we were in the process of going public, I realized that it started to feel like a job and I could not feel a deeper connection to the course of the mission. In fact, I didn't, I wasn't even sure what was the mission. Of the company. Cause we had not really set the mission as founders. And I felt like the reasons for starting, which was let's build something in Silicon Valley. And if we get investors and millions of how cool would it be as an immigrant to build a product, build a business, getting vast investors, make it successful. And we kind of had done that. We had thousand plus employees, you know, whatever, a hundred million plus revenues and tens of millions of people using it companies about go public. And I'm like, We've done it. But it's like job now. And I, I literally just was not excited to do it anymore. And so I decided to step away from my operational role. And obviously when the company goes public, you sign up for, you get a whole new set of investors and you sign up for the next decade. And I was like, I just cannot see it happening. And so, so that was one. And by the way, there was a lesson for myself, which I, I've really taken to heart with VertiHealth, which is you better set a mission As a founder that moti…

AI assessment note: “I literally just was not excited to do it anymore.”

Q You said before you treat your body like an athlete or an Olympian. What does the Sami Inkonen diet look like?

A There's, there's three things you don't, it's kind of the, the rules of fighter club, you don't talk about in America. Politics, religion, and diets, if you want to make friends. Politics, religion, diets. I'm very hesitant to, uh, to talk about that. Here, here's kind of how I eat. I eat when I'm hungry, so that's number one thing. Two, I try to eat as much as real food. Uh, and if you're wondering, is something real food? It probably isn't, because you know what real food is. And then a third one is, uh, outside of exercise, there's practically no sugar or processed carbohydrates. Uh, so that's kind of the three things. I eat when I'm hungry. Not at set times. Mostly, whenever I can, just real food. And then thirdly, um, no sugar, and you don't really find sort of obvious carbohydrates in my diet.

AI assessment note: “Here, here's kind of how I eat. I eat when I'm hungry”

Q a great job. Uh, yeah, yeah, you're, you're in good shape. Don't worry. Anyone listening to this will be like, ah, good guy, good guy. Um, listen, I want to move into a quick fire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. We're going to start with a tough one, which is What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

A I am even less Convinced. In fact, I'm absolutely convinced the willpower doesn't exist. Uh, um, free will doesn't exist. Um, we have sort of a, uh, a separate entity that, um, makes, makes decisions, um, that is not tied into the deterministic world. I'm very convinced that that is an illusion and it's a very, very, very believable illusion, uh, in, in online. But it is an illusion and become even more convinced that that is the case. And, uh, it brings humility to realize that, um, every, uh, human being is, is worthy. And however they behave, it gives you humility to just think about it's their wiring and the circumstances that, uh, affect their decisions. Not that there's a bad, uh, Rider on the horse that somehow is inherently bad. So I think it gives me a lot of empathy and humility to think about. Look at the world through that, uh, through that kind of lens and other sentient beings walking around, uh, and how they behave, why, why they behave. Um, yeah, so I think that's one.

AI assessment note: “I'm absolutely convinced the willpower doesn't exist. Uh, um, free will doesn't exist.”

Q What are the biggest mistakes you see other founders make in fundraising? It could be size. It could be valuation. It could be wrong investor. It could be whatever that may be.

A They make it too transactional. By the way, I do a lot of angel invest in this. Cause you, you really, it's easier to get rid of your co-founder than your, uh, VC and on, on the board. So the two transactional, uh, and I'll give you an example. And this is sort of a silly example, but as an angel investor, I don't know, maybe Y Combinator or somebody teaches people this, like I get these emails like, oh, it's so loved to have you on a cap table. Uh, so-and-so name is already there. Um, there's no space absolutely, but I can just make space for you. And, uh, but unfortunately I, I, I need your answer by four PM today. And it's, it sounds like maybe chat CBD gives this template where, you know, the famous name, sense of urgency. And then this is a special thing for you. Ridiculously, ridiculously transactional. And it turns me off so bad, even if I wanted to help the founder and even if I wanted to help the company. So I think one is just making it too transactional.

AI assessment note: “They make it too transactional.”

Q When did money start to become important to you?

A I don't know if you believe my answer, but In some ways, never. I've always felt I've had enough at any given time because I've been pretty happy with With very little. That said, ever since I was a kid, I've dreamed of what could be, but that what could be has never been about. I wish I had 5000 dollars or 50,000 dollars or 500,000 dollars, but I've always dreamed of what could be in terms of living in a bigger circles, uh, creating something for others. So I've always dreamed of like this. Life on a farm, picking potatoes, uh, you know, having a job nine to five, getting drunk on a Friday evening, having hangover on a Saturday, going back to your factory work on a Monday morning. This is, this cannot be all there is to life. So I've certainly had that dreaming always going on as part of my operating system.

AI assessment note: “In some ways, never. I've always felt I've had enough at any given time”

Q When did you first make your real money? Like when was the first big hit of money for you?

A I and we sold a little bit secondary in kind of six figures, um, uh, with my company Trulia before it went public. Um, Uh, maybe that was, let's just say, 2010, 2009, 2008 or something like that. So we, we saw six figures in US dollars of, of, of secondary. And that's actually the only moment, the only single moment in my life where I felt or experienced this surge of, oh my God, there's, there's more money than I may ever need, which sounds funny to say, you can spend all the money in the world. Or there's more money than I, I, I ever thought I would, I would make in my life. That is the, the one and only moment when I've experienced that.

AI assessment note: “we sold a little bit secondary in kind of six figures, um, uh, with my company Trulia”

Q Do you think it's because you were suddenly directionless for the first time? There was no next carrot. You find you had all these nice things, a nice, a nice apartment, a wonderful wife fit, and how, but What now?

A Well, I will, first I will say, I'm glad I was married. I'm glad I had a wonderful, uh, wife and spouse who, whom I'm still married to, because if I was single, living in New York, suddenly a lot of money, suddenly a lot of time, and I'm feeling kind of, kind of rudderless and anxious, that would definitely would have been an optimal moment to go down the wrong path, wrong addictions. And believe that, oh, I'm just missing something which you may be able to find from Vegas. I'm so glad I did not go down that path. Um, we decided to go, we, as in me and my wife, we decided to go to a 10 day silent meditation retreat in Taiwan, uh, soon after, um, To address this, uh, this, this weakness. So to answer your question, and I've been a meditator ever since, so that's more than a decade ago. I had never been aware of how the mind works and what's happening there. And if the mind is running you, you're going to be in trouble. And you can, you can kind of, um, fool yourself by basically Pretending like the next thing in, like, kind of like pretending that the next thing in, in front of your nose is the thing you have to do. But if you've never actually stopped, Truly stopped and see what's happening in your mind. Uh, you were just kind of a train wreck waiting to happen. And I had literally, I had never had that moment where I would truly stop and say, Hey, now, now I can do anything.

AI assessment note: “I'm feeling kind of, kind of rudderless and anxious”

Q You mentioned earlier that the comparison to the marathon with regards to success, and once you've done it, it's easier. And you touched on fundraising there also, you mentioned. But you've said before that raising little is always better than Talk to me. What are the benefits of this, and what leads that thinking?

A Yeah, well, did I really say always? I think I should never say always or never, because there's always a special case, and of course, I just contradicted myself here, but, um, well, I find that money, time, and shelf space have at least one property in common, and that is, it doesn't matter how much you have, you end up using all of it, Or it just takes absolutely extraordinary discipline to fight against this urge to use it all. And I now have a two-year and a two-month-old daughter, and I thought I was always super, super focused and productive. But only now that I have two little kids and a startup, I've realized that, oh my God, I was wasting so much time before. So wasting money is even easier than wasting time. And as I think of wasting money in a startup, there's a lot of dangerous things that come with that. And I would say, one... No company is ever going to operate in an unlimited resource world. So it's essential to me that you train this muscle, which is focus and ruthless prioritization very, very early on. And it's much easier to learn this kind of a process and approach in the very beginning than try to unlearn these bad habits later. So too much money around learning this muscle of focusing and prioritization is it's very, very difficult. And then secondly, when you raise too much money, you just have this risk of overvaluation, inability to deliver return on i…

AI assessment note: “essential to me that you train this muscle, which is focus and ruthless prioritization”

Q You mentioned earlier that the comparison to the marathon with regards to success, and once you've done it, it's easier. And you touched on fundraising there also, you mentioned. But you've said before that raising little is always better than Talk to me. What are the benefits of this, and what leads that thinking?

A Yeah, well, did I really say always? I think I should never say always or never, because there's always a special case, and of course, I just contradicted myself here, but, um, well, I find that money, time, and shelf space have at least one property in common, and that is, it doesn't matter how much you have, you end up using all of it, Or it just takes absolutely extraordinary discipline to fight against this urge to use it all. And I now have a two-year and a two-month-old daughter, and I thought I was always super, super focused and productive. But only now that I have two little kids and a startup, I've realized that, oh my God, I was wasting so much time before. So wasting money is even easier than wasting time. And as I think of wasting money in a startup, there's a lot of dangerous things that come with that. And I would say, one... No company is ever going to operate in an unlimited resource world. So it's essential to me that you train this muscle, which is focus and ruthless prioritization very, very early on. And it's much easier to learn this kind of a process and approach in the very beginning than try to unlearn these bad habits later. So too much money around learning this muscle of focusing and prioritization is it's very, very difficult. And then secondly, when you raise too much money, you just have this risk of overvaluation, inability to deliver return on i…

AI assessment note: “when you raise too much money, you just have this risk of overvaluation”

Q I don't worry about that. Why is being an EIR bad for an aspiring entrepreneur?

A Well, my viewpoint is that, first of all, in a, in any VC, venture capitalist environment, you're surrounded by extremely thoughtful and extremely smart people who can poke holes into any idea that's not completely logical. And you know, these smart, thoughtful, likely very successful people will consciously or unconsciously apply a lot of pressure on you to agree with their watertight logic. And so consequently, it's very, very difficult to be a little bit crazy and a little bit contrarian. And I believe that that's exactly what's required to To build something successful and meaningful as an entrepreneur. So I think that environment does not cultivate or create an environment where you can come up with something crazy and contrarian.

AI assessment note: “it's very, very difficult to be a little bit crazy and a little bit contrarian”

Q I'd love to kick off today with, with your story. So how did you make your way into the world of early stage startups and come to found Verta?

A Well, I guess I was born this way. It's quite the opposite. I grew up on a farm in Finland, so very far from any kind of startups. And what got me into computers and I guess excited about building something For people to use was my very first computer Commodore, 64. And then later in my teen years, I opened and ran one of the first BBSs in Finland. So for your benefit, Harry, this was probably before your time when there was an internet. So there were BBSs. So I guess I knew early on that I wanted to be involved with tech and software and create something. These were just personal projects. And then it was, I think it was in 1998. I joined a startup in Finland. It was an online stockbroker. Sort of like the e-trade of Finland among the first 10 employees as a software guy. And it was basically a front row seat to see how this team built this company from scratch to actually an IPO in, in about two years. And that process was just absolutely captivating to me. And so then a couple of years later, I started my first software company. This was in Finland. We sold the company in 2002, but I can tell you it was not a huge success, but it was an amazing, absolutely amazing life experience to me personally. I had this dream the way actors and perhaps actresses want to go to Hollywood as an entrepreneur. I felt that, well, Silicon Valley is my Hollywood. I have to get there somewhere. …

AI assessment note: “I joined a startup in Finland. It was an online stockbroker.”

Q Honestly, I haven't navigated that balance. I think a lot of people followed my running when I started running a lot, and I went to running two or three times a week, a marathon. So two or three marathons a week. Sammy, my fucking needs a shot. I, I can't run at all anymore. I'm so fucked. I didn't listen. And I, how do you know where that line is?

A I think the ability to observe yourself is an absolute superpower, uh, which I personally have developed over years now, I'd say decades through, through meditation. I guess the analogy I've sometimes used is You know, you're in a computer software, so you know, like, you write code, you can have sort of runtime debugging mode, you can see the code line by line, and then you can kind of find where it gets stuck. Um, that's kind of, if you can observe your own thoughts or your own behavior, take like a step back, And see what's happening. I think that's a kind of a superpower. And I am not trying to pretend, um, I'm, I'm like, excellent at it. I am a beginner. But I think cultivating the ability to observe your own thoughts and behavior is absolutely essential in kind of catching you and yourself and your behaviors and hopefully catch it before it goes too far. So that's one way in which I try to do that. And I'll just give you a practical somewhat silly examples. Like what am I addicted to? So certainly in, in sports, like I try to be aware of why I'm doing it. You know, I, I have a training log. I keep track of how much should I do. I try to be aware of when I'm getting too close, overreaching or overtraining, or I may be getting sick. So that's one example. Caffeine intake. People ask me, do you drink coffee? It's the kind of person you probably don't drink coffee. I'm like, …

AI assessment note: “I try to be aware of when I'm getting too close, overreaching or overtraining”

Q Do you have a fundamental need to be liked? Is it like, I'm sure, is that part of it, which is creating products that people love, and then it's like, oh, I want to be liked.

A I think there's an element of that, but I would say, I think if I go to my core, you asked earlier, like upbringing, uh, it was humble, wonderful beginning beginnings, but feeling of unworthy, the moment I wake up, definitely was not there. So I'm on the very, very, uh, unnecessarily hard on myself, and I think one of the programming that I have, whether that's nature or nurture, is I have to earn the right to exist through my actions every day, and there's a lot of that kind of drive that's inside of me. Less so I want to be validated by others, but this kind of feeling of The fact that I exist as a human being, which should be enough, and honestly, it is enough. I can intellectually tell.

AI assessment note: “I think there's an element of that, but I would say”

Q What was the biggest argument you had on the trip? 45 days. That is a long time. You only see each other. What was the biggest argument?

A So this is kind of an argument, but so, so one of the things you have is a lot of time and you have a captive audience. You can't escape. You can't be like, Come on. I'm, I'm angry. I'm going to walk that way. You walk that way. And let's, let's talk about this in a week. No, you, you're both captive audience. So we had a lot of time to fill the airwaves and come up with ideas. We talked about how do you come up with, you know, peace in Middle East? What would you do if you were president of this and that kind of law, all kinds of topics. And then one of the topics, my lovely wife threw at me said, you know what, if you didn't marry me, which one of our friends Would you marry?

AI assessment note: “if you didn't marry me, which one of our friends Would you marry?”

Q a great job. Uh, yeah, yeah, you're, you're in good shape. Don't worry. Anyone listening to this will be like, ah, good guy, good guy. Um, listen, I want to move into a quick fire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. We're going to start with a tough one, which is What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

A I am even less Convinced. In fact, I'm absolutely convinced the willpower doesn't exist. Uh, um, free will doesn't exist. Um, we have sort of a, uh, a separate entity that, um, makes, makes decisions, um, that is not tied into the deterministic world. I'm very convinced that that is an illusion and it's a very, very, very believable illusion, uh, in, in online. But it is an illusion and become even more convinced that that is the case. And, uh, it brings humility to realize that, um, every, uh, human being is, is worthy. And however they behave, it gives you humility to just think about it's their wiring and the circumstances that, uh, affect their decisions. Not that there's a bad, uh, Rider on the horse that somehow is inherently bad. So I think it gives me a lot of empathy and humility to think about. Look at the world through that, uh, through that kind of lens and other sentient beings walking around, uh, and how they behave, why, why they behave. Um, yeah, so I think that's one.

AI assessment note: “I'm absolutely convinced the willpower doesn't exist. Uh, um, free will doesn't exist.”

Q What was it that opened your eyes to the world? Where did you get this sense of ambition and this desire to, to conquer more of the world than the, the, the farm in Finland?

A Well, first I should say, I've come to realize that I have a story. We all have a story. So the truth is, I don't know. I absolutely don't know. But obviously I have a story and a narrative behind that I think might be true. And so the story that I have is, you know, obviously I was reading a lot of magazines, computer magazines. I think even in Finland, you know, we had Fast Company and so forth. I could see that there's some, that there's a larger, bigger world out there. And I got very excited about computers through the pages of magazines. And I somehow convinced my parents to, uh, find the money to buy a Commodore 64. Uh, some of your listeners might be old enough to know that there was a computer called Commodore 64. So I actually got a computer before I turned 10. And, uh, that kind of opened my eyes to What might be possible with this magical tool, uh, called a computer, which obviously my parents had no idea about, and I, just as an, as an anecdote, um, I was so drawn into this screen and a computer and what was possible with it, whether that was programming or simple games, that of course my parents were always telling me, come back, you know, come back and come help us with With the fun work, because nothing's gonna ever come out of that. Like you're so addicted to that computer, which obviously, um, it's, it's been a fun line to drop to my mom and my parents, you kn…

AI assessment note: “that kind of opened my eyes to What might be possible with this magical tool”

Q When was that and what mask were you putting on?

A I think even coming to America, you know, in my, in my twenties and being very insecure, you know, I went to Stanford for my second grad school and starting from there, you come from the potato fields of Finland and you just like everything. You're like, oh my God, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna be able to swim. I'm gonna sink here. So you're very insecure and just try to hide your vulnerabilities. And so it's just insecurity. And then always trying to think like, how do I behave here to appear as competent and confident as possible? It's very draining. It's extremely draining. It's horrible. So I think that's an example of not being truly authentic. But then the other part of your question was, uh, vulnerability. Um, I think it is also a superpower to be able to be vulnerable. Being a hundred percent vulnerable in a hundred percent situations. I think that's a recipe for disaster. Like that's absolutely a recipe for disaster. Starting from, you know, depending on what kind of bear you meet on a trail, sometimes you have to act big, loud and noise and pretend. That they, so they run away and for some type of a bear, you really just want to go down and pretend like, you know, you're dead and that's how you save your body. So anyway, that's kind of a silly example, but it's the same thing in interacting with, with, with, with humans. And so one example, you know, I'm a CEO, founde…

AI assessment note: “coming to America, you know, in my, in my twenties... appear as competent and confident”