The Exchanges

Q I mean, what an incredible journey. Can I ask, what course has switched from RIM to Sonos, and how did that come about?

A So it was Jim and Mike, who I was very, very close to. Obviously, we worked very closely to build BlackBerry over all those years. They had stepped down. There was a new CEO in place who had come internally, and Torsten and I had worked together for a number of years, but we disagreed on the direction of the company. At that particular point in time, and there's a great book called Losing the Signal by Sean Silkoff and Jackie McNish. I get one Canadian book of the year that really goes into depth on this, but I believed at that particular point in time, we needed to pivot as an organization, and so we needed to really double down on opening BlackBerry Messenger to other platforms. We actually had it working on iOS, Android, desktops as well. BlackBerry Messenger at that point was eighty million daily active users. This is before WhatsApp had any traction, any other iMessage had much Attraction, any of those things, and I felt that we had to go and do that, and Jim, myself, a few others were in that camp. We also wanted to double down on enterprise software across platform, not just for our BlackBerry devices, but Torsten, and previous to Torsten Mike, had been more on the, no, we're a hardware company. We need to build the hardware, and so we want to keep building hardware. If we just get to BlackBerry X or new OS, everything will be fine. You know, we'll overtake the iPhone an…

AI assessment note: “Torsten and I disagreed on the direction, and serendipitously at that time, John McFarlane”

Q I mean, what an incredible journey. Can I ask, what course has switched from RIM to Sonos, and how did that come about?

A So it was Jim and Mike, who I was very, very close to. Obviously, we worked very closely to build BlackBerry over all those years. They had stepped down. There was a new CEO in place who had come internally, and Torsten and I had worked together for a number of years, but we disagreed on the direction of the company. At that particular point in time, and there's a great book called Losing the Signal by Sean Silkoff and Jackie McNish. I get one Canadian book of the year that really goes into depth on this, but I believed at that particular point in time, we needed to pivot as an organization, and so we needed to really double down on opening BlackBerry Messenger to other platforms. We actually had it working on iOS, Android, desktops as well. BlackBerry Messenger at that point was eighty million daily active users. This is before WhatsApp had any traction, any other iMessage had much Attraction, any of those things, and I felt that we had to go and do that, and Jim, myself, a few others were in that camp. We also wanted to double down on enterprise software across platform, not just for our BlackBerry devices, but Torsten, and previous to Torsten Mike, had been more on the, no, we're a hardware company. We need to build the hardware, and so we want to keep building hardware. If we just get to BlackBerry X or new OS, everything will be fine. You know, we'll overtake the iPhone an…

AI assessment note: “Torsten and I disagreed on the direction, and serendipitously at that time, John McFarlane”

Q I mean, speaking of the comparables there, and those learnings, it was Mike Volpe actually at Index, he said, I asked this one, and he said, when you think about the comparables, how did building and growing RIM influence everything you do at Sonos as a company, and are there specific points?

A Yeah, so there are a few specific points. I think, you know, we reached a point, we scrapped it out. Obviously, we were a small company from a small town in Canada, which everybody thought could never be I think we got complacent in terms of where we were, and we weren't pushing ourselves hard enough to keep making progress. And so our operating system, for instance, it started to get laggy, started to get old, and we weren't pushing to re-architect and investing in the way that we needed to re-architect because we were still leading the marketplace, right? And so it's pretty classic in terms of that complacency. And so every day at Sonos, I'm always thinking about how we keep pushing ourselves and making progress. And so progress is Everything that we do, and that's across whether it's go-to-market or across the product side, software, hardware, customer experience, operations, so that's a big one. The hiring is the other big one where we went for quantity, I would say, at RIM, and we went through periods where we were just hiring people like mad, and we didn't have the quality control that we really needed, and I'll say at Sonos, John and I, and John really helped me see this, the importance of putting a lot more time Into that hiring and having a discipline process that allowed us to make sure that we're getting the people we need, not just to fulfill today's requirements, r…

AI assessment note: “every day at Sonos, I'm always thinking about how we keep pushing ourselves”

Q you there. Can I ask in terms of like, we spoke about the comparable learnings from the company perspective, in terms of like leadership perspectives, we have touched on elements there in terms of like creating dissent and encouraging safety within team atmospheres. In terms of, like, leadership aspects that taken from the 14 years at RIM to today with Sonos, are there some that really stand out to you?

A Yeah, I'd say there's probably two that really stand out to me. At RIM, I joined right out of college, and I thought leaders had to show up a certain way. So every day, I kind of put on a suit of armor to be a leader, like the way I thought leaders should act, right, and show up and not really be myself, quite frankly. And people would get a flavor for that, obviously, as we went through it, but I always thought I had to show up Perfect at a certain level and like all together and everything like that. And I've realized there is way more power as a leader in being vulnerable and just being who you are and leading in that way. And it comes with a lot less mental overhead too, in terms of being able to show up like just as yourself. And if anything, I think the pandemic has really doubled down on that as well in terms of just showing people that you are going through. We have our kids here doing school, right? One of the all hands, I do an all hands with our team every week, one of the all hands, one of our daughters was unloading the dishwasher, and she was doing it in a very loud way, because she wasn't happy about it, so everybody could hear dishes, like, clanging in the background as we were doing the all hands, and, like, that's real life, right? And I think I did myself, probably, and the company, to some degree, a disservice by not just being who I am, and bringing the bes…

AI assessment note: “there's probably two that really stand out to me. At RIM, I joined”

Q How did you approach diversity and inclusion? Mike told me you've really excelled at this. How did you approach it, and what worked?

A You know, I was moving to the United States, and watching some of the challenges here around race just shocked me. Quite frankly. And so I think it was 2017 where I really kicked off an initiative to make our team more diverse because it's the right thing to do in my mind. And I've seen all the research, which proves you're going to have better results in terms of doing that. So we started with employee resource groups and starting to create teams to do that. We also did a hiring target, which was pretty radical for where we were at that particular point in time. But I do it because I believe it's the right thing for our communities in the world. And it's Proven over and over again, create better results. And so it's something that I believe all CEOs need to be very active in. And it can't be, you know, we've seen from companies that, you know, have invested a lot, but not made much progress. I think the real issue is in those cases, they've often siloized it or given it as a responsibility to somebody else. When I think this is something that is about talent and about culture and something that the CEO really needs to own and drive.

AI assessment note: “we started with employee resource groups... We also did a hiring target”

Q I mean, speaking of the comparables there, and those learnings, it was Mike Volpe actually at Index, he said, I asked this one, and he said, when you think about the comparables, how did building and growing RIM influence everything you do at Sonos as a company, and are there specific points?

A Yeah, so there are a few specific points. I think, you know, we reached a point, we scrapped it out. Obviously, we were a small company from a small town in Canada, which everybody thought could never be I think we got complacent in terms of where we were, and we weren't pushing ourselves hard enough to keep making progress. And so our operating system, for instance, it started to get laggy, started to get old, and we weren't pushing to re-architect and investing in the way that we needed to re-architect because we were still leading the marketplace, right? And so it's pretty classic in terms of that complacency. And so every day at Sonos, I'm always thinking about how we keep pushing ourselves and making progress. And so progress is Everything that we do, and that's across whether it's go-to-market or across the product side, software, hardware, customer experience, operations, so that's a big one. The hiring is the other big one where we went for quantity, I would say, at RIM, and we went through periods where we were just hiring people like mad, and we didn't have the quality control that we really needed, and I'll say at Sonos, John and I, and John really helped me see this, the importance of putting a lot more time Into that hiring and having a discipline process that allowed us to make sure that we're getting the people we need, not just to fulfill today's requirements, r…

AI assessment note: “Yeah, so there are a few specific points. I think, you know, we reached”

Q just had an absolute meltdown in the middle of Sloan Square, which was probably not so, uh, easy for my mother to handle, but I'm intrigued in the really, just when shit doesn't go right, help me out here so my mother doesn't have to go through that again. How do you deal with it, and have you had some lessons on how to deal with the shittest of times?

A You know, I think the, how the saying goes, right, everybody is fighting a battle you know nothing about, is something that's very important to keep in mind. As I was growing up, my mother had a lot of battles with mental health, but that was kept as a secret in our family, as opposed to asking others for help and those kind of things, and I've found through my wife, through some friends, that actually sharing and leaning on some of my friends and my wife Erin has been Tremendously helpful in kind of navigating those dark moments, and then keeping in mind, I'd say, Harry, that ultimately we're all trying to figure it out every day, and there is Amazing people, amazing leaders, to know that it is all about just trying to figure it out every single day, and most people are trying to do their best as they're working through it, too, and so going in with that and giving yourself the benefit of the doubt as much as you give other people, I think, is incredibly important.

AI assessment note: “actually sharing and leaning on some of my friends and my wife Erin”

Q you there. Can I ask in terms of like, we spoke about the comparable learnings from the company perspective, in terms of like leadership perspectives, we have touched on elements there in terms of like creating dissent and encouraging safety within team atmospheres. In terms of, like, leadership aspects that taken from the 14 years at RIM to today with Sonos, are there some that really stand out to you?

A Yeah, I'd say there's probably two that really stand out to me. At RIM, I joined right out of college, and I thought leaders had to show up a certain way. So every day, I kind of put on a suit of armor to be a leader, like the way I thought leaders should act, right, and show up and not really be myself, quite frankly. And people would get a flavor for that, obviously, as we went through it, but I always thought I had to show up Perfect at a certain level and like all together and everything like that. And I've realized there is way more power as a leader in being vulnerable and just being who you are and leading in that way. And it comes with a lot less mental overhead too, in terms of being able to show up like just as yourself. And if anything, I think the pandemic has really doubled down on that as well in terms of just showing people that you are going through. We have our kids here doing school, right? One of the all hands, I do an all hands with our team every week, one of the all hands, one of our daughters was unloading the dishwasher, and she was doing it in a very loud way, because she wasn't happy about it, so everybody could hear dishes, like, clanging in the background as we were doing the all hands, and, like, that's real life, right? And I think I did myself, probably, and the company, to some degree, a disservice by not just being who I am, and bringing the bes…

AI assessment note: “Yeah, I'd say there's probably two that really stand out to me.”

Q No, absolutely. Class, do you struggle with self-doubt? I mean, because, you know, 14 years at RIM, now multiple years leading Sonos, it's like, ah, I kind of know how this game is played. Like, for me, it's like, I'm kind of figuring it out. I'm still quite young.

A I think the more you go through, you realize the less you know, and so it's humbling every single day, and no, I mean, I do But I work as hard as I can to make sure that I am trying to figure it out and trying to find great people to learn from, listening to podcasts like yours, to learn from amazing people, pick up as much as I can, and then giving myself that degree of benefit to say, you know what, you are doing everything you can, and you are learning, you're trying to put in all the time you can, work on yourself, work on your team, and so giving yourself the benefit of the doubt, I think, is critically important.

AI assessment note: “and no, I mean, I do But I work as hard as I can”

Q How did you approach diversity and inclusion? Mike told me you've really excelled at this. How did you approach it, and what worked?

A You know, I was moving to the United States, and watching some of the challenges here around race just shocked me. Quite frankly. And so I think it was 2017 where I really kicked off an initiative to make our team more diverse because it's the right thing to do in my mind. And I've seen all the research, which proves you're going to have better results in terms of doing that. So we started with employee resource groups and starting to create teams to do that. We also did a hiring target, which was pretty radical for where we were at that particular point in time. But I do it because I believe it's the right thing for our communities in the world. And it's Proven over and over again, create better results. And so it's something that I believe all CEOs need to be very active in. And it can't be, you know, we've seen from companies that, you know, have invested a lot, but not made much progress. I think the real issue is in those cases, they've often siloized it or given it as a responsibility to somebody else. When I think this is something that is about talent and about culture and something that the CEO really needs to own and drive.

AI assessment note: “we started with employee resource groups... We also did a hiring target”

Q that's massively helped my love life with your fantastic Sonos playlist. So I think I owe you many, many thanks for the romance. But I do want to start there with a little bit on you. So tell me, how did you make your way into the tech world? And how did you come to be CEO at like the game changer of my household for sure, which is Sonos?

A Well, you know, I came into the tech world because the elementary school I went to in a small city in Canada was lucky enough to get a Commodore pet computer when I was in third grade. And I was one of the students that was fortunate enough because my math marks were good enough to be able to use that pet computer. And so I fell in love. Started programming, you know, in third grade. Lost it a little bit along the way. Was always into computers and tech and everything along the way, but lost it a little bit, and then rekindled it. When I was in university as well, I realized, hey, this is the thing I think I want to be involved in. It's something around technology and computing, and so that really spurred me, actually, to do an internship between my third and fourth year of college at IBM, and I learned a whole bunch and got to work on the ThinkPad team, so I got a feel for Mobility and computing and everything going on in that world. So when I went back to university for my last year, I figured I'd go back to IBM, probably get five years of good experience at scale under my belt, and then go start my own company or join a smaller company. Instead, this opportunity came up with this company nobody had heard of in Canada called RIM, Research in Motion, doing some random engineering projects at that time, but with grand ambitions. And so I found my way there, met Jim and Mike, an…

AI assessment note: “I came into the tech world because the elementary school I went to”

Q that's massively helped my love life with your fantastic Sonos playlist. So I think I owe you many, many thanks for the romance. But I do want to start there with a little bit on you. So tell me, how did you make your way into the tech world? And how did you come to be CEO at like the game changer of my household for sure, which is Sonos?

A Well, you know, I came into the tech world because the elementary school I went to in a small city in Canada was lucky enough to get a Commodore pet computer when I was in third grade. And I was one of the students that was fortunate enough because my math marks were good enough to be able to use that pet computer. And so I fell in love. Started programming, you know, in third grade. Lost it a little bit along the way. Was always into computers and tech and everything along the way, but lost it a little bit, and then rekindled it. When I was in university as well, I realized, hey, this is the thing I think I want to be involved in. It's something around technology and computing, and so that really spurred me, actually, to do an internship between my third and fourth year of college at IBM, and I learned a whole bunch and got to work on the ThinkPad team, so I got a feel for Mobility and computing and everything going on in that world. So when I went back to university for my last year, I figured I'd go back to IBM, probably get five years of good experience at scale under my belt, and then go start my own company or join a smaller company. Instead, this opportunity came up with this company nobody had heard of in Canada called RIM, Research in Motion, doing some random engineering projects at that time, but with grand ambitions. And so I found my way there, met Jim and Mike, an…

AI assessment note: “I came into the tech world because the elementary school I went to”

Q just had an absolute meltdown in the middle of Sloan Square, which was probably not so, uh, easy for my mother to handle, but I'm intrigued in the really, just when shit doesn't go right, help me out here so my mother doesn't have to go through that again. How do you deal with it, and have you had some lessons on how to deal with the shittest of times?

A You know, I think the, how the saying goes, right, everybody is fighting a battle you know nothing about, is something that's very important to keep in mind. As I was growing up, my mother had a lot of battles with mental health, but that was kept as a secret in our family, as opposed to asking others for help and those kind of things, and I've found through my wife, through some friends, that actually sharing and leaning on some of my friends and my wife Erin has been Tremendously helpful in kind of navigating those dark moments, and then keeping in mind, I'd say, Harry, that ultimately we're all trying to figure it out every day, and there is Amazing people, amazing leaders, to know that it is all about just trying to figure it out every single day, and most people are trying to do their best as they're working through it, too, and so going in with that and giving yourself the benefit of the doubt as much as you give other people, I think, is incredibly important.

AI assessment note: “sharing and leaning on some of my friends and my wife Erin has been Tremendously helpful”

Q a lot of it comes from, like, internal innovation ideas of what's coming, and the hardest thing there is, like, how do you create a culture of safety where people feel they can bring those ideas without fear of repercussion or judgment? How do you think as a leader you create that environment of safety and often also dissent where people can disagree freely too? How does one do that?

A I think you're exactly right that the key word there is some safety ultimately so that those ideas can be put on the table. I think our reaction as a leader in those scenarios is so key and not immediately jumping in or with our own biases in terms of what's happened there and letting these things happen. So, you know, our hack week's a great example, right? And so we run those quarterly. And there's ideas all over the map, right? In terms of what's there. And then they all surface and we can kind of see big picture trends that are happening and what's going on, but just day to day, like the ideas that are coming up in the organization, whether on the software side or hardware side, that's allowing people enough room to think about what's out there. We have teams on advanced technology. So looking at technologies that are five, 10 years out, like allowing those people to come together. And Sonos is a really unique mix of people from design technology, Audio software, all of these different areas coming together. And so I think that part of the magic has been making sure that we're getting those people together in the right pods and the right teams to be able to build on each other's ideas, but it is hard. It is the hardest thing. And I think just creating the space, you know, making it okay to have things that don't work. Right. And it's even harder in hardware because you real…

AI assessment note: “making it okay to have things that don't work”

Q a lot of it comes from, like, internal innovation ideas of what's coming, and the hardest thing there is, like, how do you create a culture of safety where people feel they can bring those ideas without fear of repercussion or judgment? How do you think as a leader you create that environment of safety and often also dissent where people can disagree freely too? How does one do that?

A I think you're exactly right that the key word there is some safety ultimately so that those ideas can be put on the table. I think our reaction as a leader in those scenarios is so key and not immediately jumping in or with our own biases in terms of what's happened there and letting these things happen. So, you know, our hack week's a great example, right? And so we run those quarterly. And there's ideas all over the map, right? In terms of what's there. And then they all surface and we can kind of see big picture trends that are happening and what's going on, but just day to day, like the ideas that are coming up in the organization, whether on the software side or hardware side, that's allowing people enough room to think about what's out there. We have teams on advanced technology. So looking at technologies that are five, 10 years out, like allowing those people to come together. And Sonos is a really unique mix of people from design technology, Audio software, all of these different areas coming together. And so I think that part of the magic has been making sure that we're getting those people together in the right pods and the right teams to be able to build on each other's ideas, but it is hard. It is the hardest thing. And I think just creating the space, you know, making it okay to have things that don't work. Right. And it's even harder in hardware because you real…

AI assessment note: “our reaction as a leader in those scenarios is so key and not immediately jumping”

Q No, absolutely. Class, do you struggle with self-doubt? I mean, because, you know, 14 years at RIM, now multiple years leading Sonos, it's like, ah, I kind of know how this game is played. Like, for me, it's like, I'm kind of figuring it out. I'm still quite young.

A I think the more you go through, you realize the less you know, and so it's humbling every single day, and no, I mean, I do But I work as hard as I can to make sure that I am trying to figure it out and trying to find great people to learn from, listening to podcasts like yours, to learn from amazing people, pick up as much as I can, and then giving myself that degree of benefit to say, you know what, you are doing everything you can, and you are learning, you're trying to put in all the time you can, work on yourself, work on your team, and so giving yourself the benefit of the doubt, I think, is critically important.

AI assessment note: “no, I mean, I do But I work as hard as I can”

Q said to me in terms of kind of your relationship and, you know, your role as COO when he was still with the firm as CEO, he stated that you were an extremely dedicated COO to his CEO role, and he said about the transformation that one has to make from COO to CEO. He asked specifically, what helps you prepare for that change and assuming the role of CEO?

A So I've had the great fortune of working for three incredible founder CEOs, right, in Mike and Jim at With all three of them, got to watch them in action on a daily basis, and so when the time came, one of our board members, Robbie Bach, had said, I want you to know, like, you're not ready, right, in terms of that, but he meant it in a very loving, kind of, caring way of, like, no one's kind of ready at that time, but yet everybody is also kind of ready to take it on, and it's up to you to figure out the path, and so really watching John, Mike, and Jim, and then knowing that I'd prepared for that, my in So I did have visions, right, of starting my own company, coming out of college, and then I kind of skipped that one step by jumping to rim, and I thought, okay, like, I'm gonna join here, and it feels like this is gonna head in the right trajectory. Could never have imagined it would have been what we made it, and so there were two things in my childhood have been extremely important to my development. One was computers and really getting into technology, and the other was team sports, and so I played team sports throughout my childhood and into college. So I had confidence around leading a team. We had sports teams where we had no business winning some of the championships that we did, but it was because we all worked together. We played different roles on the team. I mean, we…

AI assessment note: “watching John, Mike, and Jim, and then knowing that I'd prepared for that”

Q Advanced team, a lot of ideas and innovation coming out of, but when you think about deciding and decision-making frameworks over where to commit resources in time, how do you think about that and differentiating between good and great and where to prioritize?

A Yeah, with our system, one of the great things is looking at the way our customers are using the products, looking at what they're doing, because even customers won't necessarily tell you, right, even if you're surveying some of those things, and we test new concepts and we'll do different Focus groups and those kind of things, but I'm more of a believer in, okay, how are people actually behaving? What are we seeing there? And then what are the macro trends that are happening in the world? So voice is a great example in terms of something that then comes along and it's like, okay, this is happening. We believe it helps us in terms of creating a better experience because like at the end of the day, the North star is the experience and really delivering an experience. We think that's going to continue to get better and better over time. And going through that, we're looking at customer insights. We're looking at market trends. As well. And then we're looking at those technologies that are developing out there for kind of new experiences we might be able to deliver. And I think Harry, part of it is that we're unique in a way in terms of, again, having design, audio, software, hardware, QA, like all at the table, advanced tech all at the table to be kind of debating and working together to bring this to life. Cause I think at a lot of companies, it ends up being kind of one that ta…

AI assessment note: “ultimately we have great product managers that have to make the call based on”

Q Advanced team, a lot of ideas and innovation coming out of, but when you think about deciding and decision-making frameworks over where to commit resources in time, how do you think about that and differentiating between good and great and where to prioritize?

A Yeah, with our system, one of the great things is looking at the way our customers are using the products, looking at what they're doing, because even customers won't necessarily tell you, right, even if you're surveying some of those things, and we test new concepts and we'll do different Focus groups and those kind of things, but I'm more of a believer in, okay, how are people actually behaving? What are we seeing there? And then what are the macro trends that are happening in the world? So voice is a great example in terms of something that then comes along and it's like, okay, this is happening. We believe it helps us in terms of creating a better experience because like at the end of the day, the North star is the experience and really delivering an experience. We think that's going to continue to get better and better over time. And going through that, we're looking at customer insights. We're looking at market trends. As well. And then we're looking at those technologies that are developing out there for kind of new experiences we might be able to deliver. And I think Harry, part of it is that we're unique in a way in terms of, again, having design, audio, software, hardware, QA, like all at the table, advanced tech all at the table to be kind of debating and working together to bring this to life. Cause I think at a lot of companies, it ends up being kind of one that ta…

AI assessment note: “product managers that have to make the call based on what we're seeing”

Q That's super lovely to hear. An ultimate one, and it's just between us, so no one's listening, but who's the best board member and why? You've got an awkward relationship with the Zoom and Google, so I can just make it more awkward at the board. And who's the best board member?

A The person that really brings a unique Because he's seen so much. I think he's on 10 or 12 boards right now, and he's been on dozens, right, over his career. He brings such a clarity of thought to particular issues, and he can cut right through it and get to the core question. So the discussions at the board level are important. He helps elevate the conversations and make sure the board isn't getting into, you know, the operational details. And particularly for a company like ours, roadmaps and the products we're bringing out, you have a very personal reaction to it. So we need to moderate that to some degree. Um, it might help. And then I think he gets the balances Of both support for me and also challenging me just right to help me grow and develop as a leader too.

AI assessment note: “He brings such a clarity of thought to particular issues”