The Exchanges

Q Can I ask, can you expand on that? What does the Olympians work ethic mean in terms of expectations in office, in hours, in attitude? What does that mean?

A Yeah, so it's a mindset. If you were to be in high school and telling everybody around you, I want to go to the Olympics, there is a certain commitment with that. You're waking up early, you're going to practice, you're showing up with other people that are also trying to vie to go to the Olympics together. Uh, so what it means in practice at Trava is we're all committed to at least 12 hour days, Monday through Thursday. Friday, we're working late, but people do tend to go out on, on Friday night. But it's an in-office culture, just like how you could technically become an amazing baseball player by hitting balls in the batting cage alone, but the real magic happens is when you're practicing with the other teammates to prepare for the big game.

AI assessment note: “what it means in practice at Trava is we're all committed to at least 12 hour days”

Q a sales rep, read about the latest sales tools, the latest sales techniques, the Prospective clients we could be going after. You don't have to be in the office working at nine PM, but improving what you do in the day. Like you said there about watching tapes, improving your day-to-day process. Do you want your people to also have side projects? Do you agree with me or, or Jack?

A I agree with you. 100%. I think that in order to unlock greatness, you have to, I think Keith actually taught me this instead of like, he talked about the pros cons list being a farce, because in reality, Not everything is equally weighted. You should actually, what is that one thing that you want to do incredibly? And then go all in on that. So you want to hire people where it's like, we are all committed to making a once in a generation company. This should be everyone's top priority. And that's the type of people we want to hire. Now people can go off and do something in their careers later, having looked back and been like, I learned so much by giving my all to that one thing. I even learned this myself. Actually, I learned this by looking at my little brother. My little brother, my parents put us in different sports in every season, and that's, like, spreading it out. It's like, okay, we're gonna do some of this, some of this, and when my little brother started getting really, really good at swimming, he dropped football, he dropped basketball, dropped baseball, and gave everything he had to swimming, and that unlocked, like, a next level of intensity and greatness, so then he ended up going to the Olympic trials, And watching how much commitment he had to that made me realize that that type of mentality just doesn't work because then you're going to be mediocre in everyth…

AI assessment note: “I agree with you. 100%. I think that in order to unlock greatness”

Q Can I ask, can you expand on that? What does the Olympians work ethic mean in terms of expectations in office, in hours, in attitude? What does that mean?

A Yeah, so it's a mindset. If you were to be in high school and telling everybody around you, I want to go to the Olympics, there is a certain commitment with that. You're waking up early, you're going to practice, you're showing up with other people that are also trying to vie to go to the Olympics together. Uh, so what it means in practice at Trava is we're all committed to at least 12 hour days, Monday through Thursday. Friday, we're working late, but people do tend to go out on, on Friday night. But it's an in-office culture, just like how you could technically become an amazing baseball player by hitting balls in the batting cage alone, but the real magic happens is when you're practicing with the other teammates to prepare for the big game.

AI assessment note: “we're all committed to at least 12 hour days, Monday through Thursday.”

Q I'm intrigued when you look at, and this is for both of you, when you look at cash discussions and title discussions in the hiring process, are there any lessons from how people respond and how that will correlate to success or lack of success in a role?

A 100%. So if they're way too focused on title, it's an immediate red flag. Part of what unlocks the greatness in a startup is people basically thinking of their career as a rock climbing wall. Like I'm going to go over here, Solve this challenge. Go over here, solve this challenge. What's better for the overall company? A startup is a team sport. So we, we have this, uh, tenant, which is one of our values, which is playing for the front of the Jersey. So it's not about you as an individual. It is actually about solving problems. And when the company is growing, when you're hiring a lot of people, when you're onboarding, a lot of customers, things are starting to break because of your growth rate, you need people that are putting down the hat of like, this is my title. And just solving whatever problem is there, which is why I also like, I'm still visiting, like selling to customers door to door. I'm very much in the weeds on the product. I'm like interviewing every single person that joins our company because I'm even like, uh, letting up door dash orders because I want people to be able to focus on their jobs. So it's like, it doesn't matter what your title is. So that's the number one red flag people that are way too focused on cash. Uh, versus the equity. I do think that's more of a yellow flag. Like some people have things in their life that they have to pertain to, whether …

AI assessment note: “if they're way too focused on title, it's an immediate red flag.”

Q and I just thought, ah, fuck this. This is gonna be so much better if we have an honest conversation. So, can you talk to me about the culture doc that you sent over to me, and start with what you expect in your approach, Mike? And Keith, I'd love for you to chime in with lessons that you have, observations that you have from seeing this from slightly afar.

A Yeah, so when my co-founder Akshay and I started the company, we were thinking big. Just like how I mentioned to you, we plan on having a global impact, building a once in a generation company, and when you go back and you look at any of those once in a generation companies, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, it was a group of people that were committed and they were working really hard doing something that doesn't happen often, that is very, very hard to make work. So our first value dream big that correlates very closely to our second value, which is Olympians work ethic. So we were just like, what we're going to do is we're going to work really hard together towards a common goal. And we only hire and promote people that are bought into that mission.

AI assessment note: “our first value dream big that correlates very closely to our second value”

Q No, I, I love that. Can I ask you, does that scale? Does the culture scale with time? When we think about, you said you're a Series A company. When you're a Series D company, does that culture look the same then, or do we regress to a mean that it, sadly, we have to regress to?

A Well, we're going to try our best never to regress to a mean, but what I would say is the culture does adapt based on the risk profile that everybody takes on. So when we first started the company, we were actually in office at least six days a week. 12 hour days. And that's because we had a lot to, like, we were basically up against the clock to get to a series A funding. So you need that level of commitment. You need that level of like being all in and dedicating everything to it. And that unlocked actually like an amazing series A. We have pulled that back a little bit to be more flexible as we hire different types of people, different roles that we need to fulfill. So for example, a head of finance versus an engineer versus a designer, we do all have Like inputs that we do together. But as we become an a thousand person company, we will modify it. Like what is the commitment together, but we will never sacrifice the like high, high velocity, high performance culture. I do believe strongly that like everyone should be joining a company more like a Olympic sports team. It's not a family. It's Olympic sports team. And like when you're an athlete, that's not pulling your weight, you get pushed off the team.

AI assessment note: “we're going to try our best never to regress to a mean”

Q Mike, final one for you. Where are you and where's Trava in 10 years time?

A Well, Trava in 10 years time should be a trillion dollar company. We will be working towards that goal, so we'll be public, because I do believe in going public soon rather than lagging. You look at Amazon, Apple, Tesla, they're all public, um, so we'll be a publicly traded company. Uh, and working towards that trillion dollar goal we have. We have improved millions and millions of people's lives, upskilling them, connecting them to the right jobs at the right time. And we've unlocked a new level of productivity in the supply chain. So people are getting food faster at a better price. Uh, buildings are getting put up with a better cost. Um, getting put up faster. There's not this constraint of labor across the supply chain.

AI assessment note: “Trava in 10 years time should be a trillion dollar company.”

Q Mike, can I ask you, you know, we hear that culture, and I'm very aligned to you in terms of it. Honestly, I think a lot of people listen and will be quite shocked, and will go, well, who would sign up for that? How do people respond when you illustrate that culture, and How do you think about their response?

A That's a really good question because to be honest, I look at their eyes when I interview people, you have to correlate the hard work culture to the dreaming big, which is the reality of the matter. Like if I'm going to tell somebody, let's get together and try our best to build a trillion dollar business. And then I say that of course takes a lot of work and we want to hire people that are committed to that. And I'm going to be honest with you that this is what the company is committed to. You just look at your, look at their eyes and if they are smiling and they say, Actually, like I already work those hours, or that sounds awesome that everyone else around me will also work that work that much. That's the right type of person. If it's somebody that's trying to justify or change something, you already know that they're probably not going to be a good fit, which is completely fine. There's a lot of opportunities around the world that they can do, like tons of jobs optimized for work-life balance, but that's just not us. So we want to find the people that actually are excited by that.

AI assessment note: “if they are smiling and they say, Actually, like I already work those hours”

Q Mike, do you celebrate wins? This is something I got coaching the other day. I don't. I think it just reads complacency. Like, just like, you don't need a pat on the back. It's not kindergarten. Like, it's fine. But, like, I was told I was wrong, and I was immature for thinking that way. Do you celebrate wins and do pats on the back?

A We do celebrate wins. Uh, it's actually funny you say that because when we hit a very like big milestone, I had given an all hands to the company and I was like, here's what we have to be, be proud of. Like, this is our unit economics. This is our growth rate. We, we actually doubted we could do it and we actually far surpassed it. Everyone clapped. And then before people could stop clapping, I switched to the next slide, which is basically like why most Y Combinator startups that graduate Y Combinator end up not making it. And it's because they get complacent and they lose momentum. So one thing that keeps me up at night is it's always this balance of guys. We are genuinely crushing it. We should be very, very appreciative of this. And all these, all this hard work is translating into actual results. But then at the same way, you don't want to get, you don't want to have a feeling that we already made it because we definitely have not already made it. You don't make it until we end up IPO and actually Like, actually, I don't think we'll ever feel like we've made it. It's always day one. It's kind of like somebody gets into Stanford, and their parents just dropped them off, and they just worked so hard throughout their entire, like, childhood to get into Stanford, and then they sit in their dorm room, and they don't actually apply themselves to use that to do great things with …

AI assessment note: “We do celebrate wins.”

Q and I just thought, ah, fuck this. This is gonna be so much better if we have an honest conversation. So, can you talk to me about the culture doc that you sent over to me, and start with what you expect in your approach, Mike? And Keith, I'd love for you to chime in with lessons that you have, observations that you have from seeing this from slightly afar.

A Yeah, so when my co-founder Akshay and I started the company, we were thinking big. Just like how I mentioned to you, we plan on having a global impact, building a once in a generation company, and when you go back and you look at any of those once in a generation companies, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, it was a group of people that were committed and they were working really hard doing something that doesn't happen often, that is very, very hard to make work. So our first value dream big that correlates very closely to our second value, which is Olympians work ethic. So we were just like, what we're going to do is we're going to work really hard together towards a common goal. And we only hire and promote people that are bought into that mission.

AI assessment note: “our first value dream big that correlates very closely to our second value”

Q No, I, I love that. Can I ask you, does that scale? Does the culture scale with time? When we think about, you said you're a Series A company. When you're a Series D company, does that culture look the same then, or do we regress to a mean that it, sadly, we have to regress to?

A Well, we're going to try our best never to regress to a mean, but what I would say is the culture does adapt based on the risk profile that everybody takes on. So when we first started the company, we were actually in office at least six days a week. 12 hour days. And that's because we had a lot to, like, we were basically up against the clock to get to a series A funding. So you need that level of commitment. You need that level of like being all in and dedicating everything to it. And that unlocked actually like an amazing series A. We have pulled that back a little bit to be more flexible as we hire different types of people, different roles that we need to fulfill. So for example, a head of finance versus an engineer versus a designer, we do all have Like inputs that we do together. But as we become an a thousand person company, we will modify it. Like what is the commitment together, but we will never sacrifice the like high, high velocity, high performance culture. I do believe strongly that like everyone should be joining a company more like a Olympic sports team. It's not a family. It's Olympic sports team. And like when you're an athlete, that's not pulling your weight, you get pushed off the team.

AI assessment note: “the culture does adapt based on the risk profile that everybody takes on.”

Q Mike, can I ask you, you know, we hear that culture, and I'm very aligned to you in terms of it. Honestly, I think a lot of people listen and will be quite shocked, and will go, well, who would sign up for that? How do people respond when you illustrate that culture, and How do you think about their response?

A That's a really good question because to be honest, I look at their eyes when I interview people, you have to correlate the hard work culture to the dreaming big, which is the reality of the matter. Like if I'm going to tell somebody, let's get together and try our best to build a trillion dollar business. And then I say that of course takes a lot of work and we want to hire people that are committed to that. And I'm going to be honest with you that this is what the company is committed to. You just look at your, look at their eyes and if they are smiling and they say, Actually, like I already work those hours, or that sounds awesome that everyone else around me will also work that work that much. That's the right type of person. If it's somebody that's trying to justify or change something, you already know that they're probably not going to be a good fit, which is completely fine. There's a lot of opportunities around the world that they can do, like tons of jobs optimized for work-life balance, but that's just not us. So we want to find the people that actually are excited by that.

AI assessment note: “if they are smiling and they say, Actually, like I already work those hours”

Q But, but my question to you is like, Mike, actually, Are most people quite shocked by it? And you just get used to that. And do you care? Like, do you care about the people on Twitter that go?

A Oh, I don't care because in reality, everyone, if you want top of the bell curve results, if you just think about a distribution, most people are in the middle, but you want outcomes that are on the far right, like basically top one percent outcomes. So it's actually better for me to be upfront that this is what we do. And Like Keith mentioned, we have enough people that are tired of being around middle of the bell curve results and want to actually, if they're going to give their all to a startup, they want to pull every lever that makes the probability of success as high as possible. And joining a team of like-minded individuals that can withstand any challenge that comes our way, like very low ego, high work ethic, understanding that startups are difficult. Like the right people, we get so many of the right types of people reach out to us and want to join that. So it's actually completely fine with me if people misunderstand or don't want to do that. I don't judge them for working less either, but I just, the outcomes are just going to be different.

AI assessment note: “Oh, I don't care because in reality, everyone, if you want top of the bell curve”

Q Mike, do you celebrate wins? This is something I got coaching the other day. I don't. I think it just reads complacency. Like, just like, you don't need a pat on the back. It's not kindergarten. Like, it's fine. But, like, I was told I was wrong, and I was immature for thinking that way. Do you celebrate wins and do pats on the back?

A We do celebrate wins. Uh, it's actually funny you say that because when we hit a very like big milestone, I had given an all hands to the company and I was like, here's what we have to be, be proud of. Like, this is our unit economics. This is our growth rate. We, we actually doubted we could do it and we actually far surpassed it. Everyone clapped. And then before people could stop clapping, I switched to the next slide, which is basically like why most Y Combinator startups that graduate Y Combinator end up not making it. And it's because they get complacent and they lose momentum. So one thing that keeps me up at night is it's always this balance of guys. We are genuinely crushing it. We should be very, very appreciative of this. And all these, all this hard work is translating into actual results. But then at the same way, you don't want to get, you don't want to have a feeling that we already made it because we definitely have not already made it. You don't make it until we end up IPO and actually Like, actually, I don't think we'll ever feel like we've made it. It's always day one. It's kind of like somebody gets into Stanford, and their parents just dropped them off, and they just worked so hard throughout their entire, like, childhood to get into Stanford, and then they sit in their dorm room, and they don't actually apply themselves to use that to do great things with …

AI assessment note: “We do celebrate wins.”

Q been nervous about it bluntly. I do have to ask you, you said before, Mike, your twenties should be pushing yourself to grow. And a lot of other people are like, oh, twenties actually is when you're traveling, when you're seeing the world, when you're ingesting every bit of knowledge you can. But like, You know, you're traveling, you're experiencing the world in your best form. What are your thoughts?

A I think actually, I do believe that your twenties, you should be really pushing yourself to learn, like, do as much as you can to figure out what you're going to double down, triple down on in your life. I would say I even saw this from people with, in my high school, like a lot of people, they, they graduated, they did travel, they optimized for work life balance, and then compounded over a decade. Like it really does change the trajectory of your life. So I would say that People can certainly travel. They can do certain things in their twenties. I'm not saying that people need to like be like, you know, room, like not doing anything, but I do think that people need to be thoughtful that time is going by. And as you are like basically optimizing for what, like sitting and watching Netflix, social media, just being very thoughtful about how you're actually spending your time. Is that actually growing you and developing you so that when you are doubling down, tripling down, you actually have the highest likelihood of success.

AI assessment note: “I do believe that your twenties, you should be really pushing yourself to learn”

Q I'm intrigued when you look at, and this is for both of you, when you look at cash discussions and title discussions in the hiring process, are there any lessons from how people respond and how that will correlate to success or lack of success in a role?

A 100%. So if they're way too focused on title, it's an immediate red flag. Part of what unlocks the greatness in a startup is people basically thinking of their career as a rock climbing wall. Like I'm going to go over here, Solve this challenge. Go over here, solve this challenge. What's better for the overall company? A startup is a team sport. So we, we have this, uh, tenant, which is one of our values, which is playing for the front of the Jersey. So it's not about you as an individual. It is actually about solving problems. And when the company is growing, when you're hiring a lot of people, when you're onboarding, a lot of customers, things are starting to break because of your growth rate, you need people that are putting down the hat of like, this is my title. And just solving whatever problem is there, which is why I also like, I'm still visiting, like selling to customers door to door. I'm very much in the weeds on the product. I'm like interviewing every single person that joins our company because I'm even like, uh, letting up door dash orders because I want people to be able to focus on their jobs. So it's like, it doesn't matter what your title is. So that's the number one red flag people that are way too focused on cash. Uh, versus the equity. I do think that's more of a yellow flag. Like some people have things in their life that they have to pertain to, whether …

AI assessment note: “if they're way too focused on title, it's an immediate red flag.”

Q But, but my question to you is like, Mike, actually, Are most people quite shocked by it? And you just get used to that. And do you care? Like, do you care about the people on Twitter that go?

A Oh, I don't care because in reality, everyone, if you want top of the bell curve results, if you just think about a distribution, most people are in the middle, but you want outcomes that are on the far right, like basically top one percent outcomes. So it's actually better for me to be upfront that this is what we do. And Like Keith mentioned, we have enough people that are tired of being around middle of the bell curve results and want to actually, if they're going to give their all to a startup, they want to pull every lever that makes the probability of success as high as possible. And joining a team of like-minded individuals that can withstand any challenge that comes our way, like very low ego, high work ethic, understanding that startups are difficult. Like the right people, we get so many of the right types of people reach out to us and want to join that. So it's actually completely fine with me if people misunderstand or don't want to do that. I don't judge them for working less either, but I just, the outcomes are just going to be different.

AI assessment note: “Oh, I don't care because in reality, everyone, if you want top of the bell curve”

Q been nervous about it bluntly. I do have to ask you, you said before, Mike, your twenties should be pushing yourself to grow. And a lot of other people are like, oh, twenties actually is when you're traveling, when you're seeing the world, when you're ingesting every bit of knowledge you can. But like, You know, you're traveling, you're experiencing the world in your best form. What are your thoughts?

A I think actually, I do believe that your twenties, you should be really pushing yourself to learn, like, do as much as you can to figure out what you're going to double down, triple down on in your life. I would say I even saw this from people with, in my high school, like a lot of people, they, they graduated, they did travel, they optimized for work life balance, and then compounded over a decade. Like it really does change the trajectory of your life. So I would say that People can certainly travel. They can do certain things in their twenties. I'm not saying that people need to like be like, you know, room, like not doing anything, but I do think that people need to be thoughtful that time is going by. And as you are like basically optimizing for what, like sitting and watching Netflix, social media, just being very thoughtful about how you're actually spending your time. Is that actually growing you and developing you so that when you are doubling down, tripling down, you actually have the highest likelihood of success.

AI assessment note: “I do believe that your twenties, you should be really pushing yourself to learn”

Q that, and they're kind of bold statements. But I do believe them. One, I find that all the greatest entrepreneurs that I see, I invest in, I work with, whatever that is, but the greatest entrepreneurs start some form of entrepreneurial project early. They're 13, 14 building websites. They could be selling cookies at their school, but they start entrepreneurship in some way early. Do you both agree with that?

A I do agree with that. It depends on, I think that developing the skill of resourcefulness and basically being like, Here's where I want to go. And I'm not going to just take like these arbitrary rules or this system around me as an answer for that. I think developing that at a young age is very important, whether it's like, okay, my high school counselor said that it's impossible to go to this college because I don't have the right criteria. I'm actually going to find a way around that. Like there's actually a general partner of founders fund named Trey. We were just at his 40th birthday party. And one thing that was mentioned was that he didn't get into Georgetown the first time. And he literally went and like set up a tent in front of the admissions office and was like, I need to get into this school and ended up getting in. Like, I think that you need to develop whatever it is. I think you need to develop that mindset at a young age, that whatever gets told to you, isn't actually the answer right off the bat. Cause it was just generated by a system and people that are probably actually optimizing for the middle of the bell curve and like the mean. I think that whether it's building websites or other, or other entrepreneurial endeavors or trying to find your way into like some system, I think that that type of mentality is very like important as a young.

AI assessment note: “I do agree with that. It depends on, I think that developing the skill”

Q Do you ever get people who think they want it and then join and go too much?

A Yeah, we do. We actually get people that think that we're kidding. Like people will be like, oh yeah, I'm going to say the right things in the interview process. And then we have had people join and then they're like, oh my gosh, these people are actually working. Past nine, 10 PM, like every night. And by the way, people are happy. Like the energy in the office is absolutely incredible. People are like stopping by each other's desk. It feels like we're all in like a college working on a very hard project like that to do the next day. Like, so yes, we do. We get people that I've had people that have joined, said the right things in the interview process. And then we basically are like, okay, this isn't for either of us after like the first week.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, we do. We actually get people that think that we're kidding.”

Q a sales rep, read about the latest sales tools, the latest sales techniques, the Prospective clients we could be going after. You don't have to be in the office working at nine PM, but improving what you do in the day. Like you said there about watching tapes, improving your day-to-day process. Do you want your people to also have side projects? Do you agree with me or, or Jack?

A I agree with you. 100%. I think that in order to unlock greatness, you have to, I think Keith actually taught me this instead of like, he talked about the pros cons list being a farce, because in reality, Not everything is equally weighted. You should actually, what is that one thing that you want to do incredibly? And then go all in on that. So you want to hire people where it's like, we are all committed to making a once in a generation company. This should be everyone's top priority. And that's the type of people we want to hire. Now people can go off and do something in their careers later, having looked back and been like, I learned so much by giving my all to that one thing. I even learned this myself. Actually, I learned this by looking at my little brother. My little brother, my parents put us in different sports in every season, and that's, like, spreading it out. It's like, okay, we're gonna do some of this, some of this, and when my little brother started getting really, really good at swimming, he dropped football, he dropped basketball, dropped baseball, and gave everything he had to swimming, and that unlocked, like, a next level of intensity and greatness, so then he ended up going to the Olympic trials, And watching how much commitment he had to that made me realize that that type of mentality just doesn't work because then you're going to be mediocre in everyth…

AI assessment note: “I agree with you. 100%.”

Q that, and they're kind of bold statements. But I do believe them. One, I find that all the greatest entrepreneurs that I see, I invest in, I work with, whatever that is, but the greatest entrepreneurs start some form of entrepreneurial project early. They're 13, 14 building websites. They could be selling cookies at their school, but they start entrepreneurship in some way early. Do you both agree with that?

A I do agree with that. It depends on, I think that developing the skill of resourcefulness and basically being like, Here's where I want to go. And I'm not going to just take like these arbitrary rules or this system around me as an answer for that. I think developing that at a young age is very important, whether it's like, okay, my high school counselor said that it's impossible to go to this college because I don't have the right criteria. I'm actually going to find a way around that. Like there's actually a general partner of founders fund named Trey. We were just at his 40th birthday party. And one thing that was mentioned was that he didn't get into Georgetown the first time. And he literally went and like set up a tent in front of the admissions office and was like, I need to get into this school and ended up getting in. Like, I think that you need to develop whatever it is. I think you need to develop that mindset at a young age, that whatever gets told to you, isn't actually the answer right off the bat. Cause it was just generated by a system and people that are probably actually optimizing for the middle of the bell curve and like the mean. I think that whether it's building websites or other, or other entrepreneurial endeavors or trying to find your way into like some system, I think that that type of mentality is very like important as a young.

AI assessment note: “I do agree with that. It depends on, I think that developing the skill of resourcefulness”

Q Do you ever get people who think they want it and then join and go too much?

A Yeah, we do. We actually get people that think that we're kidding. Like people will be like, oh yeah, I'm going to say the right things in the interview process. And then we have had people join and then they're like, oh my gosh, these people are actually working. Past nine, 10 PM, like every night. And by the way, people are happy. Like the energy in the office is absolutely incredible. People are like stopping by each other's desk. It feels like we're all in like a college working on a very hard project like that to do the next day. Like, so yes, we do. We get people that I've had people that have joined, said the right things in the interview process. And then we basically are like, okay, this isn't for either of us after like the first week.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, we do. We actually get people that think that we're kidding.”

Q Can I ask you, Mike, when you think back on the decisions you've made that you've been a mistake and you wish you'd done differently, what do you think those have been? If Keith there was the culture and he should have been more intentional from day one, what would yours be?

A I think when I was first starting the company, you think everything has an equal weight of importance, when in reality, You want to spend your time as you're scaling on the most high leverage, uh, activities that are actually going to 10 X the business. So it, it's that balance of sweating the details where every, every detail does matter. But then when there's only a finite number of hours in a day and how much energy you can apply towards something, I think I've, I've grown as a founder where I've been like, okay, here's like, as I'm starting my day today, what's like the most important thing that like is critical to the company. And I should be like, Putting my time towards that and then being, then learning the skill of like delegating the other things, but then, and then while still pressure testing. But I think when I first started, every single detail had an equal amount of importance and actually Keith being, uh, around the table for the whole journey, he actually did give a metaphor of like, I'm operating more like the army where the army is like very much like operational efficient across everything. No, no mistakes. Whereas what I should be doing as a founder is being more like a Navy seal, like going all in and like really applying myself into like the highest leverage activities.

AI assessment note: “when I was first starting the company, you think everything has an equal weight”

Q Mike, how do you feel? Could you have built Traba somewhere else?

A Well, Traba was very intentionally built in Miami because we did want to be close to our customers and Miami was our first market. So I do think it's important that when you first start a company, I mean, we're in the business of helping get the right workers at the right time to like hundreds of distribution centers, warehouses, food processing facilities. So the only way that we're going to know what these customers need is to actually go be with them in person. So Starting in Miami was definitely the right move. I do think that being different than most, I mean, we were working six days a week, 12 hour days in Miami, Florida, where people do, like, there's beautiful beaches there, there's, like, a lot of things to do. People would be like, okay, I'll move to Miami, work at Trava, dedicate everything to actually making this company work, building relationships that will last a lifetime, go through a lot of challenges together, and I did work With Uber in a lot of countries that, like, like France, like Netherlands, Egypt, and even though most of the population may have a certain culture, I do think that being very unapologetic and saying this is what we are, and you can opt into it, I do think you can still find, like, the top one percent of people in those communities that will opt into that. The risk is when you are too, like, open and aren't Like, aren't up front with what…

AI assessment note: “Traba was very intentionally built in Miami because we did want to be close to our customers”

Q mean, I, I love that. Can I ask you, I, we're all totally aligned. The one thing I do say is, I will expect more than any other employer from you, but I will pay you more as a result. Well, I know what you're giving up, and so I'll give you a bit of a bump. 10, 20% on market. Do you pay people more because you expect more?

A Yeah, we do pay people. Well, there is a dynamic of being a series, a startup where part of our success is to also manage our cash effectively, especially in this market. Part of what I get asked is, okay, you grew this much. This is your revenue growth rate, but how much capital did it take to do that? So it's part of all of our collective success to also manage cash effectively. So what I would say is people do get paid well on cash. They get paid more than the average job, but the real Like unlock for people to unlock generational wealth is the equity. And that's actually why it's an interesting, like dynamic, because the more that you hire people that are too cash obsessed, the less likelihood that your equity, that everyone's equity will be actually worth a lot too, as we continue to grow. And as the equity upside starts to not be as high of a multiple, it's natural that you continue to pay higher cash, but we do pay well above market, especially on the equity side, but, and then With hiring the best people with the commitment cash is, is also good. There's no question that a lot of people are also economically incentivized to unlock generational wealth by joining a series, a startup that's on the trajectory that we're on.

AI assessment note: “we do pay well above market, especially on the equity side”

Q terms of the depth Some talent there in that mindset. I do just have to also, we mentioned the parallels to athletes several times. There is a moment in athletes training programs, workout routines, where rest is embedded, and an extra hour in the gym won't enable them to actually be better. Is there ever a moment in work where an additional hour of input isn't actually worth the output?

A I think the right question is to ask like, okay, for a certain number of input, what is your leverage on that time? It's not like we're saying like people are sleeping, people are taking care of themselves, but it's a shift of mindset. Whereas like, okay, if we're all committed to at least 60 hours a week of work, how are we leveraging that 60 hours a week to be the most high impact on the business and moving things on moving things along even faster? The reason why I wanted to change the mindset is because if you know that not only you, but all your colleagues are also going to be there at eight PM, you're not even thinking about pushing it out the next day. You're doing it that night. And then at scale, like over time compounded across a lot of decisions, the whole engine, the whole company moves so much faster. To answer your question more directly, people do rest. Like right now people are going to spend time with their families during Thanksgiving, but every single individual has like, Has that on themselves, but they also need to know that, like, they should be pushing themselves into hypertrophy, which is kind of the same with talking about athletics. Like, you're not actually going to get bigger unless you feel like, oh, actually, now this is where it's going to get hard. Like, you're doing 20 sets of bench press. Like, you're just doing that with very low weight. You'r…

AI assessment note: “I think the right question is to ask like, okay, for a certain number”

Q Can I ask you, Mike, when you think back on the decisions you've made that you've been a mistake and you wish you'd done differently, what do you think those have been? If Keith there was the culture and he should have been more intentional from day one, what would yours be?

A I think when I was first starting the company, you think everything has an equal weight of importance, when in reality, You want to spend your time as you're scaling on the most high leverage, uh, activities that are actually going to 10 X the business. So it, it's that balance of sweating the details where every, every detail does matter. But then when there's only a finite number of hours in a day and how much energy you can apply towards something, I think I've, I've grown as a founder where I've been like, okay, here's like, as I'm starting my day today, what's like the most important thing that like is critical to the company. And I should be like, Putting my time towards that and then being, then learning the skill of like delegating the other things, but then, and then while still pressure testing. But I think when I first started, every single detail had an equal amount of importance and actually Keith being, uh, around the table for the whole journey, he actually did give a metaphor of like, I'm operating more like the army where the army is like very much like operational efficient across everything. No, no mistakes. Whereas what I should be doing as a founder is being more like a Navy seal, like going all in and like really applying myself into like the highest leverage activities.

AI assessment note: “when I was first starting the company, you think everything has an equal weight”

Q terms of the depth Some talent there in that mindset. I do just have to also, we mentioned the parallels to athletes several times. There is a moment in athletes training programs, workout routines, where rest is embedded, and an extra hour in the gym won't enable them to actually be better. Is there ever a moment in work where an additional hour of input isn't actually worth the output?

A I think the right question is to ask like, okay, for a certain number of input, what is your leverage on that time? It's not like we're saying like people are sleeping, people are taking care of themselves, but it's a shift of mindset. Whereas like, okay, if we're all committed to at least 60 hours a week of work, how are we leveraging that 60 hours a week to be the most high impact on the business and moving things on moving things along even faster? The reason why I wanted to change the mindset is because if you know that not only you, but all your colleagues are also going to be there at eight PM, you're not even thinking about pushing it out the next day. You're doing it that night. And then at scale, like over time compounded across a lot of decisions, the whole engine, the whole company moves so much faster. To answer your question more directly, people do rest. Like right now people are going to spend time with their families during Thanksgiving, but every single individual has like, Has that on themselves, but they also need to know that, like, they should be pushing themselves into hypertrophy, which is kind of the same with talking about athletics. Like, you're not actually going to get bigger unless you feel like, oh, actually, now this is where it's going to get hard. Like, you're doing 20 sets of bench press. Like, you're just doing that with very low weight. You'r…

AI assessment note: “I think the right question is to ask like, okay, for a certain number”

Q mean, I, I love that. Can I ask you, I, we're all totally aligned. The one thing I do say is, I will expect more than any other employer from you, but I will pay you more as a result. Well, I know what you're giving up, and so I'll give you a bit of a bump. 10, 20% on market. Do you pay people more because you expect more?

A Yeah, we do pay people. Well, there is a dynamic of being a series, a startup where part of our success is to also manage our cash effectively, especially in this market. Part of what I get asked is, okay, you grew this much. This is your revenue growth rate, but how much capital did it take to do that? So it's part of all of our collective success to also manage cash effectively. So what I would say is people do get paid well on cash. They get paid more than the average job, but the real Like unlock for people to unlock generational wealth is the equity. And that's actually why it's an interesting, like dynamic, because the more that you hire people that are too cash obsessed, the less likelihood that your equity, that everyone's equity will be actually worth a lot too, as we continue to grow. And as the equity upside starts to not be as high of a multiple, it's natural that you continue to pay higher cash, but we do pay well above market, especially on the equity side, but, and then With hiring the best people with the commitment cash is, is also good. There's no question that a lot of people are also economically incentivized to unlock generational wealth by joining a series, a startup that's on the trajectory that we're on.

AI assessment note: “we do pay well above market, especially on the equity side”