The Exchanges

Q Do you think we have a skewed View of progression. And what I mean by that is, you can be a brilliant IC, and you should stay as an IC. Like, actually some people aren't destined to be managers and managing people, but that's the way that we're told it works. You do very well, and then you get promoted. Is that broken?

A You know, this, this actually topic is near and dear to my heart. So when I was at Meta, I, uh, in addition to, you know, uh, my core responsibilities, I was also a functional leader for product management. And one of the things that I did at Meta is I introduced PM archetypes exactly for that problem, right? Because you're gonna have people who are brilliant ICs. If there's no clear career progression for them, Right? They feel pressure to transition into management, and oftentimes that's not the right decision for them and for the company, because, um, it's much harder to find very senior ICs who have, you know, superpowers on different, uh, topics than to find managers, right? And so, so I introduced this, um, archetypes. Um, there were, you know, certain, certain characteristics that they were spiking on, and, um, For that exact reason is that you could go all the way up to VP on this IC track.

AI assessment note: “I introduced PM archetypes exactly for that problem”

Q Now I heard there was a sliding doors moment, uh, when it comes to your entrance into Facebook. So tell me, how did this sliding door story come to be on joining Facebook?

A Yes, it was, uh, indeed a sliding doors type of moment. So I'm going to take you to And I was invited to one of those alumni events. Uh, right. This is the Boston Consulting Group. I worked at the firm for, you know, many, many years ago, and I typically don't go to these. Right. Uh, but that time was different because one of my friends made partner and it was a big deal to her. And so I wanted to go and congratulate her and give her a hug. And so I, I said, I'm going to go. And, you know, I remember that, uh, day I almost didn't go. You know, I had a lot of, uh, work that day, and, uh, my husband, literally, I remember, was pushing me out of the door, because I already committed, and he said, you should go. Ok, I went. So I come to this event, and I join one of the groups, um, you know, people who are standing and chatting, and I meet this impressive woman, Uh, she was a director of product management, uh, back then, and she speaks of her job at Facebook so passionately, uh, that I was listening to her, and, and, and then I thought, you know, it's either a bunch of BS, or there's something that I really don't understand about this company, you know, from everything, just from outside in, everything I know about it, right? So she invites me on site, and it ends up being a loop of interviews, and I go, Um, and then on my way back, you know, my house is, uh, in Menlo Park, Califo…

AI assessment note: “she invites me on site, and it ends up being a loop of interviews”

Q How do you encourage or inspire big ideas in companies?

A There are a couple of things you can do. Um, one is, um, I think as part of your strategy, when you set a strategy, um, and you articulate, you know, what do you expect teams to do? You're going to think about this, uh, in multi horizon, uh, time horizon way, right? And you are going to, um, allocate your resources to big ideas and Or optimizations, new products, existing products. And if you very clear, uh, with your, with the strategy that you said and you communicated to the team, um, I think they're going to know what's expected. So that's one is as a leader, you have to be very clear, uh, you know, what is the strategy you're driving? And as part of that, ideally it's not just incremental gains. You have allocated resources to go after bigger ideas. The second thing that you have to be really careful with is, The incentives that you have in your organization, right? So, how do you recognize impact? Um, who do you reward? Uh, what type of behaviors? You know, do you reward only incremental gains, or do you also reward people who go after bigger ideas, even if they fail? Because some of them will fail, uh, there's no doubt about it. And it is much easier to deliver incremental gains, because they're, they can happen in shorter periods of time, and they're much more, um, you know, reliable. Um, then to go after bigger ideas, which take more time, they're more unpredictable, r…

AI assessment note: “reward people who go after bigger ideas, even if they fail”

Q Final one. Which recent company product strategy have you been most impressed by?

A Well, I cannot not mention, um, with everything that's going on in our industry, uh, Satya and Microsoft and what he did with open AI and infection AI. And I think he really saw that AI was like an all in moment for Microsoft and actually the rest of tech and took a bet. And I think it's, it's proving to be a pretty good bet. The other example I would maybe highlight is Instacart. So, Fiji is the CEO there, and, uh, someone that I, uh, used to work with at, at Meta, and so I follow the company, and I'm pretty impressed with what she's done, uh, with the company, right? Like, she turned it around, made it profitable during difficult time, um, and, you know, she brought in the high margin ads business, and I think she is also taking this, uh, kind of win-win kind of, uh, mindset to, To all this approach. Like, I was reading about the deal that they made with, between Uber and Instacart, and I think that's brilliant, like, both of them, right? Like, it positioned them much better in restaurant delivery against players like, you know, um, DoorDash. And she also, uh, is investing in, um, yeah, healthy eating for low-income communities. So I think, like, if you just put all of that together, I think, um, she's an incredible operator, and it's been impressive to watch her.

AI assessment note: “Satya and Microsoft and what he did with open AI”

Q How do you think about the transition from ISE to manager? You went As you said there, starting as a PM, and then you get into, there's kind of three tiers to me, which is like IC, manager, leader, you can correct me. But that transition from IC to managers is a big one. How did you think about making that transition?

A So my perspective is that a manager is responsible first and foremost for the outcomes of their team. That means that, you know, you as a manager need to do whatever you can, whatever, you know, Everything that, uh, you know, you, you have in your control to de-risk and make sure that your team delivers on what they sign up for. Uh, when you transition from IC to a manager, there are two things that, uh, you should, will change for you. Number one is you're no longer responsible for just the product that you're working on directly. You're responsible for all the products that your team is working on, right? Like every one of them. That's one. And two, you're responsible for the people on your team. So, you know, you need to understand their, uh, weaknesses and their development areas and their strengths. You need to manage, uh, you know, deal with the underperformance. You need to get them to the next level. Um, and so, you know, the sooner you change your mindset about those two things as you transition, the better it is.

AI assessment note: “when you transition from IC to a manager, there are two things that”

Q Okay. So in a future world, we, we can see ourselves reporting to them. Okay. What's the hiring process?

A It's a four phase process. Um, so the first phase is Um, the screening and exploration, so there's a couple of interviews there, the TA, um, talent acquisition partner that does, um, you know, just, uh, looks at relevant experience, any, any kind of, like, location, things like this, any fit with the current roles, and then if that is a check, then it goes into an exploration with a product leader, and it depends on the level, you know, for more senior people, it's, Could be my reports that doing those, um, and they look at, you know, digging a little bit into motivation, relevant experience, going deeper into, okay, do we have any open roles that fit that, uh, for what we're looking for and any red flags? So if they go through the first phase, this exploratory phase, then they get into functional loop. So functional loop looks into, um, uh, vetting their product sense and their execution. So product sense is, you know, do they, um, can they take an ambiguous problem and, you know, can they understand customers, uh, well, can they come up with, through all of that, with, you know, a good solution to the problem? And so it really tests their product intuition as well. Uh, can they make decisions that are, you know, pulling data insights from all the sources? The execution interview, um, each of them are about 45 minutes. Um, the execution interview looks at, you know, their abil…

AI assessment note: “It's a four phase process. Um, so the first phase is”

Q Cross in that box, right? Okay. Captain one.

A Uh, the second one is entrepreneur. So this is, especially in big companies, you really need to protect that talent. And, um, these are the people who are incredible, uh, for, uh, zero to one, right? Uh, bringing ideas to life and then getting them to product market fit. Um, and so they are just excellent. Um, just getting, getting the team together, getting them inspired, motivated, and Iterating on an idea to get it to work. So that's the second, um, archetype. And then the next one, the third one, and the last one was specialist. So this is, these are the people who have just some very, very deep expertise in a specific domain, like integrity, growth, um, ML, you know, things like that.

AI assessment note: “Uh, the second one is entrepreneur.”

Q do more of it when it comes to, like, strategic direction, where to go, and kind of, Um, orienting that direction. I think, I think talk's really expensive. Um, and we should do less of it. Um, says the podcast. Uh, brilliant irony there. Uh, how do you think about talk is cheap? We should do more of it. Really encouraging debate versus my style, which is more dictatorial direction.

A I think debate is incredibly important. Um, and so one of the things, uh, but I also don't know if talk is cheap. So I think those are two different concepts. Um, so, uh, you know, one of the things that I really loved about the culture of Facebook when I was there, uh, was can, can be captured by, you know, strong opinions loosely held. I think a lot of the, one, one of the reasons why we were successful with the products is that we were really leaving that, um, kind of value in that, that culture. Um, and it, it really means two things. One is that you have to have a point of view. And to get to a point of view that you feel conviction about, you're going to have to go deep into whatever topic you're having this point of view about, right? You're going to have to do your homework. You're going to have to spend enough time to develop expertise in that topic to have a strong point of view, and you have to share that point of view, and people will debate, um, a lot. I was going to say the crap out of it, but, um, and that's how you get To a better outcome. And the second part of that, uh, was that, you know, you, you, you, you, you should not be stuck with your point, strong point of view, right? Like, you should be open to new information as it comes in, and not just open to new information, you should go seek out new information, because you know that it makes your decision be…

AI assessment note: “I think debate is incredibly important.”

Q How do you think about the transition from ISE to manager? You went As you said there, starting as a PM, and then you get into, there's kind of three tiers to me, which is like IC, manager, leader, you can correct me. But that transition from IC to managers is a big one. How did you think about making that transition?

A So my perspective is that a manager is responsible first and foremost for the outcomes of their team. That means that, you know, you as a manager need to do whatever you can, whatever, you know, Everything that, uh, you know, you, you have in your control to de-risk and make sure that your team delivers on what they sign up for. Uh, when you transition from IC to a manager, there are two things that, uh, you should, will change for you. Number one is you're no longer responsible for just the product that you're working on directly. You're responsible for all the products that your team is working on, right? Like every one of them. That's one. And two, you're responsible for the people on your team. So, you know, you need to understand their, uh, weaknesses and their development areas and their strengths. You need to manage, uh, you know, deal with the underperformance. You need to get them to the next level. Um, and so, you know, the sooner you change your mindset about those two things as you transition, the better it is.

AI assessment note: “when you transition from IC to a manager, there are two things that... will change”

Q So when we think about, like, helping them ship better products, the way to measure that is, you know, most often in product reviews. Very different according to different leaders, different companies. What have been your biggest lessons on how to do product reviews right?

A I set aside two to three hours a week for product reviews. We don't have to fill them up, right? Like the way that, um, we decide what to review is both in pull and push ways. So pull is me and my report. Um, in our staff meeting, we discuss typically, okay, like what are the priorities? How are they going? And, you know, other, other things that we want to discuss, um, because there's a lot of ambiguity, whatever, whatever. And so that's, that's the pull way. And then the push is when the teams themselves, you know, they, They want to discuss a topic because they need help with making a decision. They need, um, you know, a trade, help on trade-offs that they're considering or strategic considers, whatever it is, right? So those are the two, two ways.

AI assessment note: “the way that, um, we decide what to review is both in pull and push ways”

Q How do you encourage or inspire big ideas in companies?

A There are a couple of things you can do. Um, one is, um, I think as part of your strategy, when you set a strategy, um, and you articulate, you know, what do you expect teams to do? You're going to think about this, uh, in multi horizon, uh, time horizon way, right? And you are going to, um, allocate your resources to big ideas and Or optimizations, new products, existing products. And if you very clear, uh, with your, with the strategy that you said and you communicated to the team, um, I think they're going to know what's expected. So that's one is as a leader, you have to be very clear, uh, you know, what is the strategy you're driving? And as part of that, ideally it's not just incremental gains. You have allocated resources to go after bigger ideas. The second thing that you have to be really careful with is, The incentives that you have in your organization, right? So, how do you recognize impact? Um, who do you reward? Uh, what type of behaviors? You know, do you reward only incremental gains, or do you also reward people who go after bigger ideas, even if they fail? Because some of them will fail, uh, there's no doubt about it. And it is much easier to deliver incremental gains, because they're, they can happen in shorter periods of time, and they're much more, um, you know, reliable. Um, then to go after bigger ideas, which take more time, they're more unpredictable, r…

AI assessment note: “allocate your resources to big ideas... The second thing that you have to be really careful with is, The incentives”

Q Why were you not a fan of that, and then how did you change your mind?

A I just never, you know, I never used it in the past, and I thought, you know, as you, you just said, like, I mean, who's gonna put all of this time, and, you know, so Personia actually had, this is the company I work at now, um, had case studies as part of their process, and, um, when I was going through the process, I was talking with Hano, uh, the CEO, Um, they also asked me to do a case study, so they gave me a case study, and when I looked at that, like you just said, I was like, are you kidding me? I, there's no way I can find time to do this, like, it was like pages and pages, like, I don't do that in my process, I'll come to that, but it was like a pretty, uh, I don't know, 30 pages or something, and so I almost withdrew from that process, and it just so happened that, like, you know, as I was, I was looking into that Uh, case study. It was describing all the problems that I would have to tackle if I, if I started at the company, and it really piqued my interest. Like, you know, I'm a sucker for a challenge, like, a good challenge, uh, learning new things, and, um, that actually played in their favor with me, because I started to look at that, uh, into that, and it drew me in, and then, you know, I felt invested, and I, I was looking forward to, like, rolling up my sleeves, and, and just, like, Getting into and getting into it and, and, and tackling all those challenges.…

AI assessment note: “It was describing all the problems that I would have to tackle... piqued my interest”

Q What's the biggest mistake founders make when hiring product teams?

A I think there's two mistakes, uh, at least of what I, what I've seen, uh, in my experience. One is they don't hire the right person. And so it could be either because they don't know what the role needs to be successful, or they don't know how to vet the person. You know, they, they haven't seen what grade looks like, and then they compromise really quickly. Um, so that's one. And the second part is they, uh, don't know how to build, uh, like a, a good product team from structure perspective. Like, what do I mean by that? Like, if you look at every individual PM, they all make sense as individual hires, but if you, Put them all together as a product team. Like, they're all junior, and they're all high horsepower, high potential, but there's no one there to actually train them and, you know, like, get them to the next level and all of that stuff. So, just like, the structure sometimes doesn't get.

AI assessment note: “I think there's two mistakes... One is they don't hire the right person.”

Q Do you think we have a skewed View of progression. And what I mean by that is, you can be a brilliant IC, and you should stay as an IC. Like, actually some people aren't destined to be managers and managing people, but that's the way that we're told it works. You do very well, and then you get promoted. Is that broken?

A You know, this, this actually topic is near and dear to my heart. So when I was at Meta, I, uh, in addition to, you know, uh, my core responsibilities, I was also a functional leader for product management. And one of the things that I did at Meta is I introduced PM archetypes exactly for that problem, right? Because you're gonna have people who are brilliant ICs. If there's no clear career progression for them, Right? They feel pressure to transition into management, and oftentimes that's not the right decision for them and for the company, because, um, it's much harder to find very senior ICs who have, you know, superpowers on different, uh, topics than to find managers, right? And so, so I introduced this, um, archetypes. Um, there were, you know, certain, certain characteristics that they were spiking on, and, um, For that exact reason is that you could go all the way up to VP on this IC track.

AI assessment note: “I introduced PM archetypes exactly for that problem”

Q How do you think about that speed versus quality when it comes to product?

A A lot of people talk about this, uh, you know, nowadays, and we are asked to do more with less and we want to do more with less. Um, and you know, every team is asking the same question. So my teams are actually not different than that. Um, when I push for faster, um, Better results. Uh, I often hear back, you know, well, what do you want us to do? Do you want us to ship faster, or do you want us to, um, uh, ship a better product? And my answer to that is, I, I want both. And I say that not to be difficult. Um, I think, you know, there's definitely a relationship there, and the more time you spend on polishing something, uh, the more polished and crafted that's gonna be. But a lot of people miss this point that they assume that everything is operating, um, at an optimal way, you know, at the baseline level, and that's almost never the case. So I'll tell you this story, right? Like, um, recently I, I was talking to one of the senior product leaders on my team, and this was after I gave them feedback that, you know, they, they could go faster and there was some polish on their products that could be better. And we, uh, drew this, uh, graph in, in, uh, on the white, white board in my office. So it was sort of like the x-axis was, uh, the speed of execution and the y-axis was, uh, the quality of the product. And the graph was something like this, right? Like the faster the pace, th…

AI assessment note: “Do you want us to ship faster, or... ship a better product? And my answer... is I want both.”

Q do more of it when it comes to, like, strategic direction, where to go, and kind of, Um, orienting that direction. I think, I think talk's really expensive. Um, and we should do less of it. Um, says the podcast. Uh, brilliant irony there. Uh, how do you think about talk is cheap? We should do more of it. Really encouraging debate versus my style, which is more dictatorial direction.

A I think debate is incredibly important. Um, and so one of the things, uh, but I also don't know if talk is cheap. So I think those are two different concepts. Um, so, uh, you know, one of the things that I really loved about the culture of Facebook when I was there, uh, was can, can be captured by, you know, strong opinions loosely held. I think a lot of the, one, one of the reasons why we were successful with the products is that we were really leaving that, um, kind of value in that, that culture. Um, and it, it really means two things. One is that you have to have a point of view. And to get to a point of view that you feel conviction about, you're going to have to go deep into whatever topic you're having this point of view about, right? You're going to have to do your homework. You're going to have to spend enough time to develop expertise in that topic to have a strong point of view, and you have to share that point of view, and people will debate, um, a lot. I was going to say the crap out of it, but, um, and that's how you get To a better outcome. And the second part of that, uh, was that, you know, you, you, you, you, you should not be stuck with your point, strong point of view, right? Like, you should be open to new information as it comes in, and not just open to new information, you should go seek out new information, because you know that it makes your decision be…

AI assessment note: “I think debate is incredibly important. Um, and so one of the things”

Q How do you think about that speed versus quality when it comes to product?

A A lot of people talk about this, uh, you know, nowadays, and we are asked to do more with less and we want to do more with less. Um, and you know, every team is asking the same question. So my teams are actually not different than that. Um, when I push for faster, um, Better results. Uh, I often hear back, you know, well, what do you want us to do? Do you want us to ship faster, or do you want us to, um, uh, ship a better product? And my answer to that is, I, I want both. And I say that not to be difficult. Um, I think, you know, there's definitely a relationship there, and the more time you spend on polishing something, uh, the more polished and crafted that's gonna be. But a lot of people miss this point that they assume that everything is operating, um, at an optimal way, you know, at the baseline level, and that's almost never the case. So I'll tell you this story, right? Like, um, recently I, I was talking to one of the senior product leaders on my team, and this was after I gave them feedback that, you know, they, they could go faster and there was some polish on their products that could be better. And we, uh, drew this, uh, graph in, in, uh, on the white, white board in my office. So it was sort of like the x-axis was, uh, the speed of execution and the y-axis was, uh, the quality of the product. And the graph was something like this, right? Like the faster the pace, th…

AI assessment note: “my answer to that is, I, I want both.”

Q Do you find product reviews are worse remote?

A Product reviews, I don't think are that much worse because we have a structured process. It's a structured thing, right? Like what you described is more like brainstorming and, Idea generation. Yeah, riffing on each other's ideas, and I think, like, for that, like, for example, I right now live in Munich, and I don't go to the office. It's like five minutes away from my office, my, my, my, my house. I don't go to the office every day, right? Um, but, um, what I do, regardless if I'm in the office or not, if I have an idea, I will just quickly Uh, ping, you know, if it's my direct, or, or, uh, someone who reports to them, or someone who reports to them, like, I work with all sort of, uh, people on my team, right? Like, you don't need to only go to your directs, like, that's, that's really important, and we'll just quickly get on Zoom, and we'll talk about that, as long as you're not, you don't make out of it, like, this whole meeting, and, you know, so you need to leave a bunch of time on your calendar, That is not packed with meetings so that you, you, as you have, go through your creative process, you can quickly grab people and talk to them, um, as part of your day.

AI assessment note: “Product reviews, I don't think are that much worse because we have a structured process.”

Q So when we think about, like, helping them ship better products, the way to measure that is, you know, most often in product reviews. Very different according to different leaders, different companies. What have been your biggest lessons on how to do product reviews right?

A I set aside two to three hours a week for product reviews. We don't have to fill them up, right? Like the way that, um, we decide what to review is both in pull and push ways. So pull is me and my report. Um, in our staff meeting, we discuss typically, okay, like what are the priorities? How are they going? And, you know, other, other things that we want to discuss, um, because there's a lot of ambiguity, whatever, whatever. And so that's, that's the pull way. And then the push is when the teams themselves, you know, they, They want to discuss a topic because they need help with making a decision. They need, um, you know, a trade, help on trade-offs that they're considering or strategic considers, whatever it is, right? So those are the two, two ways.

AI assessment note: “the way that we decide what to review is both in pull and push ways”