The Exchanges

Q Now, I want to start the show today by hearing how a dashing young man like you came to found, as nicely as can be put, software that looks after and cares for the elderly. So what was the aha moment for you and the founding story?

A Well, I, it was a, it was probably a more of a series of aha moments. Um, you know, I, I come from a technology background myself. Um, I'd been started a number of technology companies my, uh, in the last couple of years, and I started watching some of the problems my dad was having finding care for my grandmother, uh, back in 2012. And, you know, my, when my grandfather died, my father, uh, became the primary caregiver for my grandmother. And, uh, the problem was, is that I grew up in Columbus, Ohio, and my family lived in Columbus, Ohio, and my grandmother was forced to live alone in Seattle, Washington, and so there was this big disconnect between Seattle and Ohio, and my father was, uh, forced to take an extended leave of absence from teaching after a series of really unfortunate events in the home, uh, with my grandmother, and they related to caregivers not showing up and caregivers no showing for shifts. And, uh, really just left my, my grandmother and kind of a world of hurt a few times. And so frankly, I was just very sick of watching this happen. And I started, I built an app for my dad, uh, just coming from a technology background. It was a weekend project and I built him an app to allow him to schedule and pay his caregivers more efficiently. And I didn't realize that I was building the early stages of what would eventually be home hero. And, you know, I, it wasn't u…

AI assessment note: “building the early stages of what would eventually be home hero”

Q Now, I want to start the show today by hearing how a dashing young man like you came to found, as nicely as can be put, software that looks after and cares for the elderly. So what was the aha moment for you and the founding story?

A Well, I, it was a, it was probably a more of a series of aha moments. Um, you know, I, I come from a technology background myself. Um, I'd been started a number of technology companies my, uh, in the last couple of years, and I started watching some of the problems my dad was having finding care for my grandmother, uh, back in 2012. And, you know, my, when my grandfather died, my father, uh, became the primary caregiver for my grandmother. And, uh, the problem was, is that I grew up in Columbus, Ohio, and my family lived in Columbus, Ohio, and my grandmother was forced to live alone in Seattle, Washington, and so there was this big disconnect between Seattle and Ohio, and my father was, uh, forced to take an extended leave of absence from teaching after a series of really unfortunate events in the home, uh, with my grandmother, and they related to caregivers not showing up and caregivers no showing for shifts. And, uh, really just left my, my grandmother and kind of a world of hurt a few times. And so frankly, I was just very sick of watching this happen. And I started, I built an app for my dad, uh, just coming from a technology background. It was a weekend project and I built him an app to allow him to schedule and pay his caregivers more efficiently. And I didn't realize that I was building the early stages of what would eventually be home hero. And, you know, I, it wasn't u…

AI assessment note: “I built him an app to allow him to schedule and pay his caregivers”

Q So, um, we do that. How do you imbue that to your employees? Is it kind of repetitively asserting the, the mission and the values?

A Uh, a couple ways. Well, first of all, we have all the value statements up on the walls, which, um, we put them in every offer letter before we, uh, before someone accepts an offer, they have to read all of the value statements and know what they're signing up for. Um, and then once a year we have everybody in the team, uh, actually grade themselves on each of the value statements and they send it to the entire team, the rest of the team. And so, for example, example, um, One of our, one of ours is just challenge yourself to do the hard thing, you know, and you realize success comes from replicating the work of others, you know, and doing what other people don't necessarily want to do. And so we say, all right, well, grade yourself on that value statement. And you say, well, I give myself a B plus. Well, why? And they have to explain that. And so, and then the other thing we would do is every January, I tell the company, I said, you know, it's very important that the, the 20, 20, 30 people that we have on our team, that they always have a chance to reapply for their job. And so in January, I want to know that if everybody on today was fired, and they all came in and put their resumes on the table, that I would rehire every single one of my employees. And I feel that way now, and I want them to feel that way about Home Hero. And so, we have in January, everybody reapplies for th…

AI assessment note: “Uh, a couple ways. Well, first of all, we have all the value statements”

Q And then I want to finish then on the next five years for you and for Home Hero. What have we got in store?

A Well, I, I think we, we can't really talk about Home Hero without talking about legislation. I mean, There have been a lot of changes with the affordable care act has really changed our healthcare industry. And it's really basically what it did is it changed the way that hospitals are paid. And so instead of paying on a, on a volume basis, the number of, of people that come to the hospital, hospitals are now being paid based on the quality of care that they deliver to patients. Readmission rates are hugely, hugely important. So what that's done is it's created enormous opportunities for home here at a partner with hospitals and Create better options for patients after they leave the hospital, and so what we are doing is we are working with hospitals specifically. We're partnering with hospitals nationwide to help them find more cost-effective post-acute options, and so what I see in the industry and in our role in that is that there is going to be less reliance on skilled nursing facilities and medical home health, and going home is going to be the default option, and so You are going to see a lot more non-medical, non-clinical home care providers like Home Hero partnering with hospitals, delivering an alternative to going to a skilled nursing facility. Nobody wants to go to a skilled nursing facility. They are just mini hospitals. They suck. People don't want to be there. They…

AI assessment note: “we are partnering with hospitals nationwide to help them find more cost-effective post-acute options”

Q So, um, we do that. How do you imbue that to your employees? Is it kind of repetitively asserting the, the mission and the values?

A Uh, a couple ways. Well, first of all, we have all the value statements up on the walls, which, um, we put them in every offer letter before we, uh, before someone accepts an offer, they have to read all of the value statements and know what they're signing up for. Um, and then once a year we have everybody in the team, uh, actually grade themselves on each of the value statements and they send it to the entire team, the rest of the team. And so, for example, example, um, One of our, one of ours is just challenge yourself to do the hard thing, you know, and you realize success comes from replicating the work of others, you know, and doing what other people don't necessarily want to do. And so we say, all right, well, grade yourself on that value statement. And you say, well, I give myself a B plus. Well, why? And they have to explain that. And so, and then the other thing we would do is every January, I tell the company, I said, you know, it's very important that the, the 20, 20, 30 people that we have on our team, that they always have a chance to reapply for their job. And so in January, I want to know that if everybody on today was fired, and they all came in and put their resumes on the table, that I would rehire every single one of my employees. And I feel that way now, and I want them to feel that way about Home Hero. And so, we have in January, everybody reapplies for th…

AI assessment note: “Uh, a couple ways. Well, first of all, we have all the value statements”

Q delicately put it. So, So with that, how would, I mean, how would you like VCs to treat founders when they are getting their ass kicked? Is it, you know, is it a generous feedback, which is, you know, you can iterate and improve on this, and we'd love to see you again? Is it just being brutally honest? What's your take on how you want VCs to treat you?

A Um, respect is really important to me, and I, I think that they need to understand that when I walk in that door, I'm putting my heart and soul into this business, and it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with the business that I'm building, but you need to respect me, and that's something I've all my life that I've, uh, demanded, and I, and I think I got that from everybody, most people that I met, and again, I think you have to have tough skin. I mean, some, you know, Chamath, for example, they don't do a lot of hardware plays, and so, you If you go to him with a hardware business and he doesn't like it, don't, don't get offended and say, oh, Chamath's the worst person. It's just sometimes they, they might've gotten burned from it. They don't like the industry. They read something that scares them about the industry. Who knows? Right. So I don't ever take it personal, but getting our ass kicked does not mean you're yelling at me and you're, you know, you're making fun of my business. It's, it's really that you're asking questions that I may not have a really good answer for. And it's okay to say, Hey, you know what? I don't know that, but I'll get back to you on that. And you go home and you damn better do your homework. And so that, there were a lot of those where Mike and I look at each other and we kind of laughed. It was like, yeah, we probably should know that, you…

AI assessment note: “respect is really important to me, and I, I think that they need to understand”

Q I'm really intrigued also on unit economics. It's something that everyone is shouting about for marketplaces. So how much of a role do you allow unit economics to play in your psyche moving forward, and to what extent do you focus on growth in comparison?

A Well, it's my fiduciary duty to focus a lot on unit economics, and while Uh, it's not something we put in front of the faces of all of our customers. We, we have to pay a lot of attention to it. You know, we were in a business earlier, uh, you know, say a year ago, we surpassed a million hours of home care in California, and we were operating on much thinner margins, a lower cost. We basically wanted to be the low cost marketplace, and we were operating at a price point of about 15 dollars, and the caregivers were keeping 80% of it, and so they were still getting good wages, but we Recently, in order to, uh, work with hospitals, uh, we decided to convert a hundred percent of our caregivers, we call them heroes, from 10 99 contractors to w two employees, and in doing that, uh, it raised the, the, a lot of our costs, right? We now have these employees that they're getting benefits, they're getting four one K plans. Their, their benefits package isn't much different than, uh, my engineers. And so the unit economics changed a lot. Now our price points at 22 dollars, but We have caregivers that are, you know, frankly, just a lot higher quality, and it wasn't that we had a lower quality in the past. It was just now they are, these guys are going through the same level of credentialing and screening as nurses in the hospital, and so it's just a different breed, and we're delivering a …

AI assessment note: “it's my fiduciary duty to focus a lot on unit economics”

Q I'm really intrigued also on unit economics. It's something that everyone is shouting about for marketplaces. So how much of a role do you allow unit economics to play in your psyche moving forward, and to what extent do you focus on growth in comparison?

A Well, it's my fiduciary duty to focus a lot on unit economics, and while Uh, it's not something we put in front of the faces of all of our customers. We, we have to pay a lot of attention to it. You know, we were in a business earlier, uh, you know, say a year ago, we surpassed a million hours of home care in California, and we were operating on much thinner margins, a lower cost. We basically wanted to be the low cost marketplace, and we were operating at a price point of about 15 dollars, and the caregivers were keeping 80% of it, and so they were still getting good wages, but we Recently, in order to, uh, work with hospitals, uh, we decided to convert a hundred percent of our caregivers, we call them heroes, from 10 99 contractors to w two employees, and in doing that, uh, it raised the, the, a lot of our costs, right? We now have these employees that they're getting benefits, they're getting four one K plans. Their, their benefits package isn't much different than, uh, my engineers. And so the unit economics changed a lot. Now our price points at 22 dollars, but We have caregivers that are, you know, frankly, just a lot higher quality, and it wasn't that we had a lower quality in the past. It was just now they are, these guys are going through the same level of credentialing and screening as nurses in the hospital, and so it's just a different breed, and we're delivering a …

AI assessment note: “Well, it's my fiduciary duty to focus a lot on unit economics”

Q So do you think we're placing too much emphasis on unit economics as a founder? Would you like all the noise to just die down and let you focus on what matters? Or do you think it's important to have this financial restraint?

A I think that not where we are as a business. Uh, we, we're not placing too much emphasis on it. I, you know, when, when, when we're constantly being bombarded with, uh, minimum wage laws and overtime laws, and we have a very highly regulated industry. And so, Uh, these laws that come out every six or eight months do affect our business, and so we have to navigate those waters very carefully. I think in the early days, when you're real, when you're still figuring out what are we doing, you know, like, like Chamath and Social Plus, we had, in the early days, they really didn't harp too much on what our margins were. I mean, we were operating on really thin margins, and we were just trying to deliver an amazing experience to our customers, and And even if that meant losing money on a customer, we just wanted to, we, we so badly wanted to learn and wanted to just deliver an awesome experience. And sometimes, you know, as a startup, you make a mistake and the easiest way to make, uh, uh, to, to make the mistake right again is to throw money at the problem. And that's not always the answer, but it's, it's one solution. And so we, you know, we screwed up a lot in the early days and we were given out credits left and right. And I don't think that's unusual to, You just try to not make the same mistakes twice.

AI assessment note: “we're not placing too much emphasis on it.”

Q delicately put it. So, So with that, how would, I mean, how would you like VCs to treat founders when they are getting their ass kicked? Is it, you know, is it a generous feedback, which is, you know, you can iterate and improve on this, and we'd love to see you again? Is it just being brutally honest? What's your take on how you want VCs to treat you?

A Um, respect is really important to me, and I, I think that they need to understand that when I walk in that door, I'm putting my heart and soul into this business, and it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with the business that I'm building, but you need to respect me, and that's something I've all my life that I've, uh, demanded, and I, and I think I got that from everybody, most people that I met, and again, I think you have to have tough skin. I mean, some, you know, Chamath, for example, they don't do a lot of hardware plays, and so, you If you go to him with a hardware business and he doesn't like it, don't, don't get offended and say, oh, Chamath's the worst person. It's just sometimes they, they might've gotten burned from it. They don't like the industry. They read something that scares them about the industry. Who knows? Right. So I don't ever take it personal, but getting our ass kicked does not mean you're yelling at me and you're, you know, you're making fun of my business. It's, it's really that you're asking questions that I may not have a really good answer for. And it's okay to say, Hey, you know what? I don't know that, but I'll get back to you on that. And you go home and you damn better do your homework. And so that, there were a lot of those where Mike and I look at each other and we kind of laughed. It was like, yeah, we probably should know that, you…

AI assessment note: “respect is really important to me, and I, I think that they need to understand”

Q It's a first for the show. I'm always, always loving first for the show. Uh, at 250, and it's quite rare to get a first, so sorry. Uh, okay, let's talk about, I want to actually talk about growth and retaining company culture, even though now you have a hundred plus people. How do you handle that?

A Well, just to clarify, so we have 30 employees, and then we have a few hundred caregivers, so in the office is 30, and then outside. Culture is hugely important. I'll give you a ten-second story. When I, when Chamath brought us on, he asked us a lot about company culture, and he knew how important it was to us, and I was telling him, you know, work hard, and stay diligent, and that kind of stuff, and he says, no, that's, that's BS. That's not company culture, and so we took a team retreat out in Tahoe a couple years ago, Right after we fundraised with Social Plus Capital and really just found nine value statements, and one of the most important one is default to transparency. Uh, you know, we are a very, very transparent team, and we have, all our communication is default by, um, by default, is public by default, and so, um, building that culture and just really staying true to that is extremely important. You cannot undervalue the importance of culture and, and really living by it.

AI assessment note: “found nine value statements, and one of the most important one is default to transparency”

Q Oh, we love science. We have Mike on the show actually a long, long time ago now. How was that experience for you being at science and how transformative was it being in the incubator that is science?

A Mike Jones and I have been friends for many years. Uh, I actually, when I, before Home Hero, I was, uh, I started a company called Flowtab, and it was a mobile ordering and payments application for bars and nightclubs, and admittingly, it was, uh, it was one of those scratch-your-own-itch kind of problems, and when you're 24 years old, you don't have a lot of problems, and so getting drinks in bars was a big deal. You know, frankly, it was just more exciting for me to, to build a mobile app, and I think we wanted to do that, and And I was trying to get Mike Jones to be an investor, and Mike Jones probably did the smartest thing he could as a VC and didn't give me money, but he gave me really good advice, and he connected me with one of our largest distribution partners. It was a company called DexOne, and they helped us distribute and scale to three different cities and states. So he's always been really, really helpful to me, and so I had a lot of trust in him when I wanted to start the second business. But when we started at Science, what I particularly liked is they had had a couple successful They built marketplaces under their belt. They had built a vent up and then they built a dog vacay. And so I knew that by coming in there, we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak. We had a, we got a lot of help with SEO and SEM. That's kind of their bread and butter. Mike J…

AI assessment note: “when we started at Science, what I particularly liked is they had had a couple successful”

Q So, uh, what were your biggest screw up and what, what did you learn most from it? I'm intrigued.

A Um, you know, very rarely did we make a human screw up. It was usually a technology screw up. So we're messing up someone's, uh, clock in or clock out. We've screw up a time zone. A caregiver messes up a clock in or clock out. We overbuild a client. So it was usually the caregiver making mistake and then us not catching it and billing the client something wrong. And, It wasn't, these are not catastrophic, uh, events that involve somebody's health, but they do affect someone's money, which is the second most important thing in your life. You know, we were, we were causing a lot of problems from the technology side because we were doing things that had never been done before, and so we were, we had these, uh, geo fences set up around houses where they would automatically clock in and clock out, you know, when you're at the house, and then we had to deal with, well, do we allow them to, to clock in if they, Are going to the grocery store first? And, you know, how do we deal with mileage reimbursement? And there's just a lot of nuances to your, to your business that we just had to learn very quickly.

AI assessment note: “It was usually a technology screw up. So we're messing up someone's clock in”

Q I love that tactic. Can I just ask one thing? Does that not create a bit of fear and uncertainty within them that potentially they might lose their job?

A Of course. I, you know, I think it is, it is important. You come out of it so much stronger, um, and so much more united come February first or Mid January, you feel so re recharged and rejuvenated for being a part of that company. And, you know, I, it's not that we sit there and try to talk people out of, out of working here. It's just, you, you, you really want people that they're not, they're not here for the paycheck and they're not here because they have legacy and they've been here a long time. You want people that are, are truly engaged, uh, and motivated by your mission. And that's how we keep it fresh. And it's, it's very valuable.

AI assessment note: “Of course. I, you know, I think it is, it is important.”

Q So, uh, what were your biggest screw up and what, what did you learn most from it? I'm intrigued.

A Um, you know, very rarely did we make a human screw up. It was usually a technology screw up. So we're messing up someone's, uh, clock in or clock out. We've screw up a time zone. A caregiver messes up a clock in or clock out. We overbuild a client. So it was usually the caregiver making mistake and then us not catching it and billing the client something wrong. And, It wasn't, these are not catastrophic, uh, events that involve somebody's health, but they do affect someone's money, which is the second most important thing in your life. You know, we were, we were causing a lot of problems from the technology side because we were doing things that had never been done before, and so we were, we had these, uh, geo fences set up around houses where they would automatically clock in and clock out, you know, when you're at the house, and then we had to deal with, well, do we allow them to, to clock in if they, Are going to the grocery store first? And, you know, how do we deal with mileage reimbursement? And there's just a lot of nuances to your, to your business that we just had to learn very quickly.

AI assessment note: “It was usually a technology screw up. So we're messing up someone's, uh, clock in”

Q Oh, we love science. We have Mike on the show actually a long, long time ago now. How was that experience for you being at science and how transformative was it being in the incubator that is science?

A Mike Jones and I have been friends for many years. Uh, I actually, when I, before Home Hero, I was, uh, I started a company called Flowtab, and it was a mobile ordering and payments application for bars and nightclubs, and admittingly, it was, uh, it was one of those scratch-your-own-itch kind of problems, and when you're 24 years old, you don't have a lot of problems, and so getting drinks in bars was a big deal. You know, frankly, it was just more exciting for me to, to build a mobile app, and I think we wanted to do that, and And I was trying to get Mike Jones to be an investor, and Mike Jones probably did the smartest thing he could as a VC and didn't give me money, but he gave me really good advice, and he connected me with one of our largest distribution partners. It was a company called DexOne, and they helped us distribute and scale to three different cities and states. So he's always been really, really helpful to me, and so I had a lot of trust in him when I wanted to start the second business. But when we started at Science, what I particularly liked is they had had a couple successful They built marketplaces under their belt. They had built a vent up and then they built a dog vacay. And so I knew that by coming in there, we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak. We had a, we got a lot of help with SEO and SEM. That's kind of their bread and butter. Mike J…

AI assessment note: “got a lot of help with SEO and SEM. That's kind of their bread and butter.”

Q want to talk about the business now, and I have a, Kicking off with a question from Mamoon Social, who's an angel investor in you, uh, and he says, you're in a very people intensive business, uh, with the elderly on one side and caretakers on the other. So how do you think about the profitability of a business such as this, considering that it's not your typical software business?

A Yeah, it's definitely not. Um, you know, it took us a while to learn. We had to deliver a high technology and a high touch experience, and that was really important. And You know, I speak at a lot of different, uh, healthcare conferences, and the first thing anyone wants to say is, oh, you're the Uber for caregiving, and I almost shout on stage, and I said, hell no, we're not the Uber for caregiving, and I'll tell you why. I look at marketplaces as almost two categories. You have these homogenous or these homogenous marketplaces, which I call, you know, Uber, Handy, Lyft, Homejoy, Rest in Peace, Instacart, Postmates. All of those are really built around cost and speed, and so, I look at those and no offense to any of those companies, but you could probably replace those workers with robots. Um, you know, if I had a, if I had a driverless car, Travis has always talked about driverless cars could potentially make up a predominant part of the workforce. Instacart, if I had a drone delivering my groceries, I wouldn't even know the difference. There's no human component. On the other side, you have these heterogeneous marketplaces that are more about kind of cost and quality. And so, I look at Airbnb and TaskRabbit and Thumbtack and The Home Hero and Hotel Tonight, and in these heterogeneous marketplaces, each of the workers or your unit of supply are uniquely different. You're buil…

AI assessment note: “I almost shout on stage, and I said, hell no, we're not the Uber”

Q Absolutely. And what would you look to improve on for the next round of funding, which I'm sure we will see coming in the next year or two. Um, so, so what would you like to improve upon for that next fundraise?

A Mike and I have always done a really good job, um, with around the fundraising, just because we have a lot of persistence. I do think it's important to really map out who you could potentially raise money from really, really early and get them on a, what I call a drip. Um, one thing that Mike and I did, even in the really early days, this is how I kept Mike Jones engaged with our last company is we would send monthly newsletters out to all of All of our kind of investor network, and even if we weren't fundraising, it, it, it keeps them engaged in your story, and so you don't, you never want to go into an investor meeting, and that'd be the first time that they've heard of your business, the first time they've met you, the first time they've heard anything about you, because they don't have a, a relative point to compare your progress to, so even right now, we send out kind of a monthly newsletter to anybody that we could potentially raise money from in the future, just as a Heads up, you know, Home Hero just partnered with Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, and we're now the preferred home care provider from Cedars-Sinai. In case you haven't seen that, you know, we're, we're the first hospital to deploy care kit, uh, Apple's care kit into a hospital. It was through Home Hero, and so these are things that investors may want to know about, right? And so we send those, that information …

AI assessment note: “Mike and I have always done a really good job, um, with around the fundraising”

Q Absolutely. And what would you look to improve on for the next round of funding, which I'm sure we will see coming in the next year or two. Um, so, so what would you like to improve upon for that next fundraise?

A Mike and I have always done a really good job, um, with around the fundraising, just because we have a lot of persistence. I do think it's important to really map out who you could potentially raise money from really, really early and get them on a, what I call a drip. Um, one thing that Mike and I did, even in the really early days, this is how I kept Mike Jones engaged with our last company is we would send monthly newsletters out to all of All of our kind of investor network, and even if we weren't fundraising, it, it, it keeps them engaged in your story, and so you don't, you never want to go into an investor meeting, and that'd be the first time that they've heard of your business, the first time they've met you, the first time they've heard anything about you, because they don't have a, a relative point to compare your progress to, so even right now, we send out kind of a monthly newsletter to anybody that we could potentially raise money from in the future, just as a Heads up, you know, Home Hero just partnered with Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, and we're now the preferred home care provider from Cedars-Sinai. In case you haven't seen that, you know, we're, we're the first hospital to deploy care kit, uh, Apple's care kit into a hospital. It was through Home Hero, and so these are things that investors may want to know about, right? And so we send those, that information …

AI assessment note: “Mike and I have always done a really good job, um, with around the fundraising”

Q want to talk about the business now, and I have a, Kicking off with a question from Mamoon Social, who's an angel investor in you, uh, and he says, you're in a very people intensive business, uh, with the elderly on one side and caretakers on the other. So how do you think about the profitability of a business such as this, considering that it's not your typical software business?

A Yeah, it's definitely not. Um, you know, it took us a while to learn. We had to deliver a high technology and a high touch experience, and that was really important. And You know, I speak at a lot of different, uh, healthcare conferences, and the first thing anyone wants to say is, oh, you're the Uber for caregiving, and I almost shout on stage, and I said, hell no, we're not the Uber for caregiving, and I'll tell you why. I look at marketplaces as almost two categories. You have these homogenous or these homogenous marketplaces, which I call, you know, Uber, Handy, Lyft, Homejoy, Rest in Peace, Instacart, Postmates. All of those are really built around cost and speed, and so, I look at those and no offense to any of those companies, but you could probably replace those workers with robots. Um, you know, if I had a, if I had a driverless car, Travis has always talked about driverless cars could potentially make up a predominant part of the workforce. Instacart, if I had a drone delivering my groceries, I wouldn't even know the difference. There's no human component. On the other side, you have these heterogeneous marketplaces that are more about kind of cost and quality. And so, I look at Airbnb and TaskRabbit and Thumbtack and The Home Hero and Hotel Tonight, and in these heterogeneous marketplaces, each of the workers or your unit of supply are uniquely different. You're buil…

AI assessment note: “I look at marketplaces as almost two categories.”

Q So do you think we're placing too much emphasis on unit economics as a founder? Would you like all the noise to just die down and let you focus on what matters? Or do you think it's important to have this financial restraint?

A I think that not where we are as a business. Uh, we, we're not placing too much emphasis on it. I, you know, when, when, when we're constantly being bombarded with, uh, minimum wage laws and overtime laws, and we have a very highly regulated industry. And so, Uh, these laws that come out every six or eight months do affect our business, and so we have to navigate those waters very carefully. I think in the early days, when you're real, when you're still figuring out what are we doing, you know, like, like Chamath and Social Plus, we had, in the early days, they really didn't harp too much on what our margins were. I mean, we were operating on really thin margins, and we were just trying to deliver an amazing experience to our customers, and And even if that meant losing money on a customer, we just wanted to, we, we so badly wanted to learn and wanted to just deliver an awesome experience. And sometimes, you know, as a startup, you make a mistake and the easiest way to make, uh, uh, to, to make the mistake right again is to throw money at the problem. And that's not always the answer, but it's, it's one solution. And so we, you know, we screwed up a lot in the early days and we were given out credits left and right. And I don't think that's unusual to, You just try to not make the same mistakes twice.

AI assessment note: “we're not placing too much emphasis on it.”