The Exchanges

Q What are those discussions you have when it's not working? Did you talk about going back to fully in person? Because there's got to be a moment six to nine months in where you're going, shit, did we make the wrong decision?

A I mean, we broke the bridges relatively well behind us because we knew it would be painful. So if, I think if we knew how painful it would be, I don't know if we would have done it. But once we committed to it, we burnt the bridges pretty well behind us. Like we encouraged people to move. We like, like gave up our leases in a bunch of places, took the write downs, gave up the furniture. Like we made it like, a lot of companies that went remote during COVID, like kept their offices pristine, did not give up the leases, managed like, like, like did the whole thing. So they had the optionality to go back. We hired people in places that were nowhere near our offices on purpose. So we, we, um, made it very difficult for ourselves to go back.

AI assessment note: “we made it very difficult for ourselves to go back”

Q I'm sorry to be naive, but the show thrives on basic questions. Why is it hard to understand your growth and how do you simply explain your growth to your children or a ten-year-old or someone who does not?

A Well, it's not hard to understand where our growth comes from. Our growth comes from people starting businesses and those business succeeding and making lots of money and we share that upside. That's like Basically where Shopify's growth comes from. So that's not hard to, it's not hard to say those words, but it's very hard to model those words. It's very hard for analysts to say, hey, this cohort of Shopify merchants will have next all birds. In the same way, it's actually difficult for analysts to model, uh, VCs. Cause what Shopify is essentially is like, we, we, we invest in cohorts of startups. Tens of thousands of merchants try to start a business on Shopify. Like every, Oh, I won't say how frequently cause that's publicly, but like very frequently and they grow up and some of them become very big and many of them don't, many of them die. Some of them become very good lifestyle businesses, which is what people want or side hustles.

AI assessment note: “Our growth comes from people starting businesses and those business succeeding and making lots of money”

Q You mentioned kind of Toby there and building the snowboard store as the first vision. You've worked with Toby now for several years. If we do the quick fire on your lesson from Toby, what's your biggest lesson from Toby?

A Two things that Toby is exceptional in, um, and it's actually very impressive. The first is, um, Toby has ingrained in the company a prioritization order that is very, um, meaningful to Shopify. We say at Shopify we only have three priorities. Build great products, make money, Use money to build more great products and never reverse one and two, right? Priority one is build products. Priority two is make money. Priority three is never reverse one and two. And like, that is actually incredibly hard to hold as a publicly traded company of our size. That idea of like, hey, just never change those priorities and spend most of your time on the first one. This is a real thing. The second thing is because of that prioritization stack, Shopify has a quality bar that is higher than most other software companies. So the, the, we hold things back that almost everyone else would have shipped. And this was actually a jarring thing when I first got to Shopify, but I realized how much Shopify overbuilt before it shipped.

AI assessment note: “Toby has ingrained in the company a prioritization order”

Q out the truth, and I, I too am disagreeable. And I was listening to you speak before, and you said about a learner's mindset being core to Shopify is kind of culture and one of your core values. And I think a value is something that you can either argue for or against. No one's going to argue against having a learner in the team, are they? I mean, everyone.

A I think they are, Harry. No, I think, I think they are. This is a real thing. In fact, every job posting that says you require 10 years of experience Is arguing against a learner's mindset because the way the world works usually is one of two things, right? When you are young, your intelligence is fluid. You are learning things. When you get older in your career, you are now experienced. You're less learning things. You're now applying your experience. This is a real thing. It is actually perfectly reasonable to say, I do not want learners. I want experienced people who have done things to do it again. I think that's a real, and I actually think most companies, I think the word learner is a good word, so people use it like free, more freely, but what we mean by learner is we want people who, uh, replace experience with the ability to learn a thing from scratch, which means that Shopify on average tends to do things differently than what experienced people would have done.

AI assessment note: “I think they are, Harry. No, I think, I think they are.”

Q So just so I understand, what do you mean? Like the, the information flow didn't go the right way.

A Let me give you an example. Like, um, At most companies, the way it works is, I have an idea, I tell, I write a note, I tell my boss about it, my boss likes it or doesn't like it, and tells his boss about it, and up the chain the information goes, till someone says yes, and it comes back down and I do it. That tree, that's a very common pattern. It's true to every company. It's true even at Shopify sometimes. But it's incredibly terrible. Like one of the things I tell my Team is to share information publicly, and it's perfectly okay for your boss to find out about something at the same time as the whole company. That's perfectly okay. Uh, but my biggest mistakes have essentially been when some, when information has gotten to me without being publicly shared, such that opposing views haven't gotten their hands on it.

AI assessment note: “Let me give you an example. Like, um, At most companies, the way it works”

Q I actually started the show, my vision was actually to have become an associate at a venture fund in London. And, you know, in the time that I allocated for that, I actually raised a hundred and fifty million dollars on my own. And it, but if I, If I didn't succumb to my vision, I would have accepted that. And so visions can constrain you. Is vision always good?

A No, no, I don't think so, Harry. Like, let's, let's, I mean, let's look at Shopify. Kobe's original vision was to build a snowboard store. Right? And he didn't, I mean, he built one, and now Shopify exists. Like, it is not Like, it is very true that people learn and change their final goal. People learn and change their vision. But everything good ever created started with someone saying, hold on a second. The world is wrong about X. I will fix it. The initial thing of saying, I have to create a thing to fix a problem for me or for someone else, requires you to know what you want at the end. Now, you may be wrong about that. You can change that, obviously. You know, like Microsoft's first product was a bootloader for basic. Microsoft is not a company that makes bootloaders anymore, right? That's a real thing. But Microsoft's first product wasn't, let me ship two lines of code and see what the third one looks like. There is a difference between, um, beautiful things are created with a vision. It is okay for that vision to change over time.

AI assessment note: “No, no, I don't think so, Harry.”

Q Wow. What's the second? The first was Microsoft and OpenAI, and second was Axel Mobile. I think Canva's is incredible.

A Oh yeah, yes, yes, yes, 100%. I mean, not just Canva's worth, like, the way Canva built is to be admired. The product is just beautiful. Um, but I'll give you, sorry, I'll give you a non-Canva one. Um, my third one would be Figma. Not that many companies can survive what happened to Figma. Right? Companies that usually, like, usually mergers that fall apart or acquisitions that fall apart end up with in a really bad place because companies just typically have checked out by the time the acquisition happens. Figma is thriving. And I think they're thriving because when the acquisition happened, They decided that they were going to pretend as though it had not happened. They kept the pace of innovation and they kept shipping product, um, which I think is actually a very risky thing to do as a company because usually the acquisition happens and you have to undo all of it, but it worked out well for them.

AI assessment note: “my third one would be Figma. Not that many companies can survive what happened”

Q You mentioned kind of Toby there and building the snowboard store as the first vision. You've worked with Toby now for several years. If we do the quick fire on your lesson from Toby, what's your biggest lesson from Toby?

A Two things that Toby is exceptional in, um, and it's actually very impressive. The first is, um, Toby has ingrained in the company a prioritization order that is very, um, meaningful to Shopify. We say at Shopify we only have three priorities. Build great products, make money, Use money to build more great products and never reverse one and two, right? Priority one is build products. Priority two is make money. Priority three is never reverse one and two. And like, that is actually incredibly hard to hold as a publicly traded company of our size. That idea of like, hey, just never change those priorities and spend most of your time on the first one. This is a real thing. The second thing is because of that prioritization stack, Shopify has a quality bar that is higher than most other software companies. So the, the, we hold things back that almost everyone else would have shipped. And this was actually a jarring thing when I first got to Shopify, but I realized how much Shopify overbuilt before it shipped.

AI assessment note: “Toby has ingrained in the company a prioritization order that is very, um, meaningful”

Q out the truth, and I, I too am disagreeable. And I was listening to you speak before, and you said about a learner's mindset being core to Shopify is kind of culture and one of your core values. And I think a value is something that you can either argue for or against. No one's going to argue against having a learner in the team, are they? I mean, everyone.

A I think they are, Harry. No, I think, I think they are. This is a real thing. In fact, every job posting that says you require 10 years of experience Is arguing against a learner's mindset because the way the world works usually is one of two things, right? When you are young, your intelligence is fluid. You are learning things. When you get older in your career, you are now experienced. You're less learning things. You're now applying your experience. This is a real thing. It is actually perfectly reasonable to say, I do not want learners. I want experienced people who have done things to do it again. I think that's a real, and I actually think most companies, I think the word learner is a good word, so people use it like free, more freely, but what we mean by learner is we want people who, uh, replace experience with the ability to learn a thing from scratch, which means that Shopify on average tends to do things differently than what experienced people would have done.

AI assessment note: “every job posting that says you require 10 years of experience Is arguing against”

Q So just so I understand, what do you mean? Like the, the information flow didn't go the right way.

A Let me give you an example. Like, um, At most companies, the way it works is, I have an idea, I tell, I write a note, I tell my boss about it, my boss likes it or doesn't like it, and tells his boss about it, and up the chain the information goes, till someone says yes, and it comes back down and I do it. That tree, that's a very common pattern. It's true to every company. It's true even at Shopify sometimes. But it's incredibly terrible. Like one of the things I tell my Team is to share information publicly, and it's perfectly okay for your boss to find out about something at the same time as the whole company. That's perfectly okay. Uh, but my biggest mistakes have essentially been when some, when information has gotten to me without being publicly shared, such that opposing views haven't gotten their hands on it.

AI assessment note: “my biggest mistakes have essentially been when some, when information has gotten to me without being publicly shared”

Q I actually started the show, my vision was actually to have become an associate at a venture fund in London. And, you know, in the time that I allocated for that, I actually raised a hundred and fifty million dollars on my own. And it, but if I, If I didn't succumb to my vision, I would have accepted that. And so visions can constrain you. Is vision always good?

A No, no, I don't think so, Harry. Like, let's, let's, I mean, let's look at Shopify. Kobe's original vision was to build a snowboard store. Right? And he didn't, I mean, he built one, and now Shopify exists. Like, it is not Like, it is very true that people learn and change their final goal. People learn and change their vision. But everything good ever created started with someone saying, hold on a second. The world is wrong about X. I will fix it. The initial thing of saying, I have to create a thing to fix a problem for me or for someone else, requires you to know what you want at the end. Now, you may be wrong about that. You can change that, obviously. You know, like Microsoft's first product was a bootloader for basic. Microsoft is not a company that makes bootloaders anymore, right? That's a real thing. But Microsoft's first product wasn't, let me ship two lines of code and see what the third one looks like. There is a difference between, um, beautiful things are created with a vision. It is okay for that vision to change over time.

AI assessment note: “No, no, I don't think so, Harry.”

Q What do you know about marriage now that you wish you'd known when you got married?

A When you are married, there are three parties you need to care about, not two. It's you, your wife, and a marriage. Like, there's, like, there's three entities that you need to care about. And all of them are, need to be independently cared about. You can take care of yourself, you can take care of your wife, and you can take care of your marriage. And those are three different things. And if you think about that, what ends up happening is that every once in a while, you realize that you're taking care of yourself and your wife, but not the marriage. And that's incredibly important. Like, my wife and I, like, look, we have four kids. We have four young kids. We have date nights almost every week. Uh, because we value taking care of the marriage.

AI assessment note: “there are three parties you need to care about, not two.”

Q Keith. We mentioned the show with Delian before this, and Delian's biggest takeaway was Keith's view of company building as like a Hollywood movie, where there's a director who sets the script, recruits the actors, and executes against that vision. That's one way to do it, and then the other way is test, iterate, talk to customers. How do you think about those two very opposing views of company building?

A I think I have written a note internally to our product managers about this at Shopify. I think the book Lean Startup may have done more damage unintentionally to software than any other book. I think it's a well-written book, but it's misunderstood by everyone who's read it. And as a result of it, we have a crap ton of bad software that should not be in production in the hands of people. And this is just a really good way to churn everyone off from these products. Look, people don't want To be tested upon. And this, this culture we've developed of ship things that you're not proud of, that you know are bad, just to like get some people to react to it. It's just really bad. We would never do it this way anywhere else. Well, I am not saying everyone should spend three years building something before shipping, but the goal is to ship things that you are proud of being in the world.

AI assessment note: “Lean Startup may have done more damage unintentionally to software than any other book.”

Q What are those discussions you have when it's not working? Did you talk about going back to fully in person? Because there's got to be a moment six to nine months in where you're going, shit, did we make the wrong decision?

A I mean, we broke the bridges relatively well behind us because we knew it would be painful. So if, I think if we knew how painful it would be, I don't know if we would have done it. But once we committed to it, we burnt the bridges pretty well behind us. Like we encouraged people to move. We like, like gave up our leases in a bunch of places, took the write downs, gave up the furniture. Like we made it like, a lot of companies that went remote during COVID, like kept their offices pristine, did not give up the leases, managed like, like, like did the whole thing. So they had the optionality to go back. We hired people in places that were nowhere near our offices on purpose. So we, we, um, made it very difficult for ourselves to go back.

AI assessment note: “we made it very difficult for ourselves to go back.”

Q I'm sorry to be naive, but the show thrives on basic questions. Why is it hard to understand your growth and how do you simply explain your growth to your children or a ten-year-old or someone who does not?

A Well, it's not hard to understand where our growth comes from. Our growth comes from people starting businesses and those business succeeding and making lots of money and we share that upside. That's like Basically where Shopify's growth comes from. So that's not hard to, it's not hard to say those words, but it's very hard to model those words. It's very hard for analysts to say, hey, this cohort of Shopify merchants will have next all birds. In the same way, it's actually difficult for analysts to model, uh, VCs. Cause what Shopify is essentially is like, we, we, we invest in cohorts of startups. Tens of thousands of merchants try to start a business on Shopify. Like every, Oh, I won't say how frequently cause that's publicly, but like very frequently and they grow up and some of them become very big and many of them don't, many of them die. Some of them become very good lifestyle businesses, which is what people want or side hustles.

AI assessment note: “Our growth comes from people starting businesses and those business succeeding and making lots of money”

Q approach and eventually you're kind of ones and two axes. I totally, I totally get you there. But what you've done is you've realized, hang on a minute. Hmm, Allbirds is kind of great, but Supreme is probably better. And actually, the older, bigger commerce enterprises are great. And there's been a very clear shift in Shopify's strategy to enterprise into the core existing brands. Am I wrong with that?

A I think we did it in a very different way than most people think. So I was here at Shopify. I was a person who used to tell enterprises away. Like, one of the top 10 retailers in the world asked us to use Shopify. A few years ago, and I said, no, you may not. We don't sell PowerPoint wear at Shopify. Like, we don't show up at PowerPoint presentations that say, like, look at all the stuff we have, and then none of it works. But we have a product rule called no party tricks, i.e. we don't show you a thing, and it's That can work only in very specific instances. Like, if we show you a thing, it can just generally work. So we don't do the party trick thing of, look at me doing this one thing, but as soon as you try to do it again, it just fails. So what we take great pride in selling the type of software we do. So, but over the last couple years, it's not like we went Up market at Shopify. We just kind of like stopped saying no to all the enterprises that wanted to use Shopify.

AI assessment note: “We just kind of like stopped saying no to all the enterprises”

Q Keith. We mentioned the show with Delian before this, and Delian's biggest takeaway was Keith's view of company building as like a Hollywood movie, where there's a director who sets the script, recruits the actors, and executes against that vision. That's one way to do it, and then the other way is test, iterate, talk to customers. How do you think about those two very opposing views of company building?

A I think I have written a note internally to our product managers about this at Shopify. I think the book Lean Startup may have done more damage unintentionally to software than any other book. I think it's a well-written book, but it's misunderstood by everyone who's read it. And as a result of it, we have a crap ton of bad software that should not be in production in the hands of people. And this is just a really good way to churn everyone off from these products. Look, people don't want To be tested upon. And this, this culture we've developed of ship things that you're not proud of, that you know are bad, just to like get some people to react to it. It's just really bad. We would never do it this way anywhere else. Well, I am not saying everyone should spend three years building something before shipping, but the goal is to ship things that you are proud of being in the world.

AI assessment note: “I think the book Lean Startup may have done more damage unintentionally to software”

Q But when you have enterprise clients, and again, I'm naive here, so correct me, but you need SOC two, you need levels of You need compliance, you need permissioning, you need a ton of different product features which are a pain in the ass and normal smaller businesses wouldn't have. You need customer service, you need customer success at different levels. And enterprise, it's a different company, no?

A Luckily, because the way Shopify has worked is we have, you know, billion dollar public companies That start on Shopify on day one, right? These are massive, massive companies, um, that just start on Shopify. Fashion Nova is a multi-billion dollar retailer. Figs is a public, like, these are, like, very large companies that start on Shopify. So we've been able to model the business as they've grown up. So we needed SOC, too, for Figs to go public. Like, this is, like, we didn't need it for, like, we didn't. What most people end up doing Is doing this the wrong way, right? They go to SOC II saying, what can I build? And then they build the thing SOC II says you shall build. Which is why all enterprise software ends up being shit. Right? Whereas what we had to do is we had to do a first principle. We have this piece of software. We have merchants who needs, you know, Sarbanes-Oxy compliant because they're going public. How do we, from a first principle, make that work for them? That means a different software experience. Like it just genuinely, honestly, and I'm like, look, there are many, many, many, many public companies that use Shopify, like many of them, like, like very large part of commerce in the world, right? Um, but I'm telling you to them, it just looks different than like an ERP would. It just looks like good software, and I think that's not that, that different. Like,…

AI assessment note: “So we've been able to model the business as they've grown up.”

Q If you were to trade off on one of them, what would you trade off?

A The right thing. For sure the right thing. Because, like, uh, people overestimate the importance of what, and then massively underestimate the importance of how. Like, people just massively underestimate the importance of how, uh, in ways that are just, like, shocking still. Like, if you think of, like, most software, most people in most software companies spend their time arguing what should we build, whereas they really should be arguing where should we build it? Like, where in the stack should this thing be built rather than what we should build? Because that's, like, if you get that decision, right, you actually can end up building a lot more This is why, by the way, more PMs need to be more technical. I'm not saying, um, all PMs need to write code, but all PMs need to understand how code is written, and, like, that's an incredibly important thing in, like, the stack of priorities.

AI assessment note: “The right thing. For sure the right thing.”

Q What makes that though? The process with which you approach it?

A Yeah. I mean, I think, I honestly think this goes back to Like, Shopify has two core values that are different than most companies, and I know this is like a, but I think they're actually also embodiment of Toby, our founder, who, like, is very much like this. The first is, like, thrive on change. Now, thrive on change sounds good, but most companies actually don't want to thrive on change. Most companies are built such that they do incredibly well in times where there are no change, right? That's what most companies are. Like, if there's change, most companies Are not handled, not built to handle it. Shopify is built, so it does better when there's change. When there's dramatic change, Shopify just does better. It just, that's how a company is built. So we're like very Thrive Unchangey. Uh, the second is this is a learner's thing we talked about, where it's like Shopify is built, so I should normal things take us longer at Shopify than it would take most companies. Let me give you like an example. This is no longer true, but it was true when I got to Shopify. If you want to hire a person at a regular company, you go to HR, you give them a, like, hey, I have an empty headcount. Please go hire this person for me. And as a process, they run through that works. When I got to Shopify, there was no such process. So hiring someone was just a very weird, you had to discover, like, if …

AI assessment note: “this goes back to Like, Shopify has two core values that are different”

Q approach and eventually you're kind of ones and two axes. I totally, I totally get you there. But what you've done is you've realized, hang on a minute. Hmm, Allbirds is kind of great, but Supreme is probably better. And actually, the older, bigger commerce enterprises are great. And there's been a very clear shift in Shopify's strategy to enterprise into the core existing brands. Am I wrong with that?

A I think we did it in a very different way than most people think. So I was here at Shopify. I was a person who used to tell enterprises away. Like, one of the top 10 retailers in the world asked us to use Shopify. A few years ago, and I said, no, you may not. We don't sell PowerPoint wear at Shopify. Like, we don't show up at PowerPoint presentations that say, like, look at all the stuff we have, and then none of it works. But we have a product rule called no party tricks, i.e. we don't show you a thing, and it's That can work only in very specific instances. Like, if we show you a thing, it can just generally work. So we don't do the party trick thing of, look at me doing this one thing, but as soon as you try to do it again, it just fails. So what we take great pride in selling the type of software we do. So, but over the last couple years, it's not like we went Up market at Shopify. We just kind of like stopped saying no to all the enterprises that wanted to use Shopify.

AI assessment note: “it's not like we went Up market at Shopify. We just kind of like stopped”

Q But when you have enterprise clients, and again, I'm naive here, so correct me, but you need SOC two, you need levels of You need compliance, you need permissioning, you need a ton of different product features which are a pain in the ass and normal smaller businesses wouldn't have. You need customer service, you need customer success at different levels. And enterprise, it's a different company, no?

A Luckily, because the way Shopify has worked is we have, you know, billion dollar public companies That start on Shopify on day one, right? These are massive, massive companies, um, that just start on Shopify. Fashion Nova is a multi-billion dollar retailer. Figs is a public, like, these are, like, very large companies that start on Shopify. So we've been able to model the business as they've grown up. So we needed SOC, too, for Figs to go public. Like, this is, like, we didn't need it for, like, we didn't. What most people end up doing Is doing this the wrong way, right? They go to SOC II saying, what can I build? And then they build the thing SOC II says you shall build. Which is why all enterprise software ends up being shit. Right? Whereas what we had to do is we had to do a first principle. We have this piece of software. We have merchants who needs, you know, Sarbanes-Oxy compliant because they're going public. How do we, from a first principle, make that work for them? That means a different software experience. Like it just genuinely, honestly, and I'm like, look, there are many, many, many, many public companies that use Shopify, like many of them, like, like very large part of commerce in the world, right? Um, but I'm telling you to them, it just looks different than like an ERP would. It just looks like good software, and I think that's not that, that different. Like,…

AI assessment note: “enterprises use Windows. Small business merchants use Windows. Like, how you build the operating system matters.”

Q What makes that though? The process with which you approach it?

A Yeah. I mean, I think, I honestly think this goes back to Like, Shopify has two core values that are different than most companies, and I know this is like a, but I think they're actually also embodiment of Toby, our founder, who, like, is very much like this. The first is, like, thrive on change. Now, thrive on change sounds good, but most companies actually don't want to thrive on change. Most companies are built such that they do incredibly well in times where there are no change, right? That's what most companies are. Like, if there's change, most companies Are not handled, not built to handle it. Shopify is built, so it does better when there's change. When there's dramatic change, Shopify just does better. It just, that's how a company is built. So we're like very Thrive Unchangey. Uh, the second is this is a learner's thing we talked about, where it's like Shopify is built, so I should normal things take us longer at Shopify than it would take most companies. Let me give you like an example. This is no longer true, but it was true when I got to Shopify. If you want to hire a person at a regular company, you go to HR, you give them a, like, hey, I have an empty headcount. Please go hire this person for me. And as a process, they run through that works. When I got to Shopify, there was no such process. So hiring someone was just a very weird, you had to discover, like, if …

AI assessment note: “Shopify has two core values that are different than most companies”

Q Can I be so bold and just ask, does that not feel like a bit of a, a boom time mindset? Oh, it's a valuable problem, and we'll figure out how to make money along the way.

A Fuck no. No, definitely not. Look, this is not, like, I'm not saying we're going to figure out how to make money along the way. We will make money. That's not what I'm saying. Like, we have plans on making, like, we will have plans to make money. We have, like, a couple of good bets already. We'll launch more of them. I'm not saying I have, like, a hope and a dream of profitability. This is a for-profit company. Like, it's very much a for-profit company. We'll figure it out. But what I'm saying is that you need, you, businesses should not exist to make money. Businesses should make money to deliver on a mission, and those are important things. This isn't, like, we are a mission-driven company, and we'll make a profit such that we can deliver on our mission. Uh, and like the shareholders will be happy. Buyers will be happy and sellers will be happy, but that's the goal. Like, I'm not saying like, oh, I don't know how to make money. I know how to make money here. What I'm saying is the mission is more important than the money.

AI assessment note: “Fuck no. No, definitely not. Look, this is not, like, I'm not”

Q Can I be so bold and just ask, does that not feel like a bit of a, a boom time mindset? Oh, it's a valuable problem, and we'll figure out how to make money along the way.

A Fuck no. No, definitely not. Look, this is not, like, I'm not saying we're going to figure out how to make money along the way. We will make money. That's not what I'm saying. Like, we have plans on making, like, we will have plans to make money. We have, like, a couple of good bets already. We'll launch more of them. I'm not saying I have, like, a hope and a dream of profitability. This is a for-profit company. Like, it's very much a for-profit company. We'll figure it out. But what I'm saying is that you need, you, businesses should not exist to make money. Businesses should make money to deliver on a mission, and those are important things. This isn't, like, we are a mission-driven company, and we'll make a profit such that we can deliver on our mission. Uh, and like the shareholders will be happy. Buyers will be happy and sellers will be happy, but that's the goal. Like, I'm not saying like, oh, I don't know how to make money. I know how to make money here. What I'm saying is the mission is more important than the money.

AI assessment note: “Fuck no. No, definitely not. Look, this is not”

Q What is the most underappreciated element of Shopify's product roadmap vision today?

A I think people underappreciate how broad the product is. Like the surface area of the product is very, very, very big, and people underappreciate how massive it is. In that way, Shopify is much more similar to an operating system than an application. Like, people, people underappreciate how, um, Shopify is not really a point solution. And this is, this is probably a hard, part of the reason why analysts have a hard time modeling it. Because, like, it's just not, it's hard to model that. Because, like, you want to build a bottom-up model of something, it's really hard to do it for a thing that's this. Like, the use cases of Shopify are incredibly diverse. I'm like, this is, like, perfectly good for us. Like, we are, we are tool makers. We are not application builders.

AI assessment note: “I think people underappreciate how broad the product is.”

Q If you were to trade off on one of them, what would you trade off?

A The right thing. For sure the right thing. Because, like, uh, people overestimate the importance of what, and then massively underestimate the importance of how. Like, people just massively underestimate the importance of how, uh, in ways that are just, like, shocking still. Like, if you think of, like, most software, most people in most software companies spend their time arguing what should we build, whereas they really should be arguing where should we build it? Like, where in the stack should this thing be built rather than what we should build? Because that's, like, if you get that decision, right, you actually can end up building a lot more This is why, by the way, more PMs need to be more technical. I'm not saying, um, all PMs need to write code, but all PMs need to understand how code is written, and, like, that's an incredibly important thing in, like, the stack of priorities.

AI assessment note: “The right thing. For sure the right thing.”

Q What is the most underappreciated element of Shopify's product roadmap vision today?

A I think people underappreciate how broad the product is. Like the surface area of the product is very, very, very big, and people underappreciate how massive it is. In that way, Shopify is much more similar to an operating system than an application. Like, people, people underappreciate how, um, Shopify is not really a point solution. And this is, this is probably a hard, part of the reason why analysts have a hard time modeling it. Because, like, it's just not, it's hard to model that. Because, like, you want to build a bottom-up model of something, it's really hard to do it for a thing that's this. Like, the use cases of Shopify are incredibly diverse. I'm like, this is, like, perfectly good for us. Like, we are, we are tool makers. We are not application builders.

AI assessment note: “I think people underappreciate how broad the product is.”

Q You mentioned there the potential comms challenge that they let slip and let permeate. One thing I thought was fascinating that you said the best PMs have inherent within them is you have to blame yourself for everything. Why do you have to blame yourself for everything, Kaz? And is there ever a time when it's not applicable?

A Product management is not a job that has traditionally existed in the world, right? It's not like a, you can't go and find a product manager skilled up to 1700. That's not a thing. It's a, what we call product management is a relatively new thing. Like it was basically invented by Kind of, like, Netscape? Kind of? Kind of Google? Kind of meta? Like, this is real, that's how old, like, this is, like, early two thousands-ish type thing. Before then, by the way, if you actually read, like, the story of Compaq, or, uh, coming up, or Dell coming up, the people who did most of the job PMs do today were marketers. The VP of marketing was what would have been, like, kind of in charge of the roadmap. Uh, and there was a, there was a real change in, essentially, I think Netscape was the OG here, but people give credit to Google and Meta too. What essentially the job is, is to understand and represent the user and the user's best, um, best outcome, not best wishes, best outcome for the user, given the market you're in. Like, that's the job, right? And if the user is not better off, only one person could have made the mistake. If the user is not better off, it's because we say the job of PM at Shopify is to build the right thing the right way at the right time. Most companies don't actually care about the right way part, or the right time part, they care about the right thing part, but we …

AI assessment note: “if the user is not better off, only one person could have made the mistake”

Q What do you think was the worst bet that he took?

A The worst decision Meta probably made was Not being more publicly celebratory of Mark personally and Meta generally. I think Meta allowed, because the company was so focused on execution internally, it didn't spend that much time worrying about its reputation externally, and essentially allowed a lie to spread about it that has caused it significant pain. I don't think that will matter in the long run, to be honest, but in the short run, it's clearly been painful, right? This has been a real part of like, you know, What's happening in much of the world regulatorily is just clearly very misguided, and it's misguided because Meta didn't spend time educating people. And there's another thing about Meta that is, is important to appreciate. More founders have come out of Meta than any other tech company. This is like, there was a point at which you actually, like, looked it up. It's, it's like, it's like PayPal-esque, but at much bigger scale. Like, there was a point at which you would, I compared this A few years ago of the number of hundred million dollar companies that have started by ex-Facebook employees versus ex-employees of other major tech companies. All of them combined was less than Meta.

AI assessment note: “The worst decision Meta probably made was Not being more publicly celebratory”