The Exchanges

Q So take me to that. So we're starting to see actually relatively good early numbers, and we're profitable enough. At that point, you must be getting inbound from VCs, no?

A No, this is 2010, 2011. There was basically no venture capital scene whatsoever in Europe. And the, The biggest problem was, um, that we didn't have a US original that we were a copy of. So I remember I was talking to Oliver Sumber at the time, you know, we had started to relocate some of the staff from Switzerland to Berlin because Switzerland was just too expensive for us to survive in our bootstrap mode. And, you know, he looks at me, he's like, you know, so, so what's the equivalent here? You know, so like in the US, like, you know, you're, you're the copy of what exactly? I was like, there is no exact Copy. You know, we're trying something new here. Like, you know, experiences, marketplaces don't really exist right now, but I believe it's the future of travel. And he was like, so do you, do you want to join Rocket Intranet or do you want to work on your own startup? And I was like, you know, I'm going to work on my own startup. And he was like, okay, thank you very much. See ya. And you know, this is really the spirit of the time. It's very hard to like recollect because things are so different today, but we couldn't raise funding.

AI assessment note: “No, this is 2010, 2011. There was basically no venture capital scene whatsoever in Europe.”

Q Did you do that quick enough? Because sometimes you can leave it quite late.

A I did it. Thankfully, I did it quick enough, and I got incredibly lucky that at the time, a, um, person that's not actually not very well-known in the European startup ecosystem, it was probably one of the most successful European founders of all time, called Case Colon, Uh, called me up. Um, you know, one Friday night I was watching Netflix with my wife, you know, was sitting there and, you know, he called me up and he said, you know, here's Case Kolan, and I obviously knew him because he was the founder and CEO of Booking.com. And he said, you know, look, Johannes, I just left Booking.com. I've heard about your company. I think you're onto something. Um, give me your numbers. So I run him through the numbers. He was like, you know, give me like every cohort and like, you know, every kind of like supplier. And it was just like really going deep, like on the first call. And by the end of it, it was like, you know, one and a half hours. And he said, this is interesting. I'm going to be in Berlin tomorrow morning, nine AM at your office. This is Saturday morning, right? And, you know, next morning I, nine AM I'm there. So a case is there. And like, he goes to the meeting room with me and to the whiteboard. And like, he basically maps out like the entire journey of like, you know, where he sees value and like where I see value asked a ton of questions. It was literally like, you k…

AI assessment note: “I did it. Thankfully, I did it quick enough”

Q Is there anything else you'd do to attract great talent? I love that in terms of the tax incentive for software engineers. Anything else that you'd do?

A Well, it sounds very sad, but actually making it easy, uh, and removing the red tape and the barriers. So we hired a CTO from Netflix, uh, last year, Gaurav Agarwal. Amazing guy. He was the guy who led all of growth at Netflix, um, you know, which was Very successful. Was met up before. Tremendous resume. He's Indian. Um, for him to get a visa to come to Germany after he had signed a job contract, and this guy makes a lot of money, took him six months. Why? Because he had to go to the consulate in San Francisco, and they only take appointments two times a week, and they've been booked out For the next six months. So I literally had to call up, you know, the foreign office in Germany to get him an appointment in San Francisco. So he could bring his paperwork, literally the paperwork, because he can't send that anywhere so that he can get the visa and migrate to Germany. I kid you not. I mean, if you make it that hard, it is no wonder that we don't have a tech ecosystem in Europe.

AI assessment note: “actually making it easy, uh, and removing the red tape and the barriers.”

Q So where did you invest in that time? That allowed you to come out stronger post fire.

A So we, um, did a couple of like very extraordinary measures. First of all, we came back with that vision and that target picture to our entire organization and particularly the engineering and product org, which is the majority of our expenses on, on the people side. And we told them, we would love for you to reduce your salary, but we'll give you shares as a compensation. So if this actually works out, Financially will be great for you. Um, but you'll need to take the short-term hit. And what happened was magical. Um, our product and edge organization, and, and even beyond that into management function, people on average reduced their salaries by more than 30% in exchange for shares. Some people went down to like 80% salary reduction in, in leadership. I kid you not. It was crazy. It was such a testament, um, to their belief in, in the company. And then for a lot of the other operational staff, there was, um, uh, these short time labor, you know, things in Germany and elsewhere where, you know, the government would actually cover some of the cost. And with these type of measures, we basically could go very deep into the pandemic and only had to cut marginally. So we only had to ultimately lay off throughout the entire two years roughly, 15 to 20% of the staff, not a single engineer, not a single product person. Despite being at zero revenues for more than a year afterwards.

AI assessment note: “our product and edge organization... people on average reduced their salaries by more than 30%”

Q That's amazing. It's, it's, it's interesting for me, obviously not being in Berlin, not seeing that kind of firsthand impact that they've had. So it's super to hear. Okay. So there's not the VC ecosystem. That exists. We're going through this seasonality where suddenly actually, oh shit, we're going bankrupt every once every or twice every year. When do we start to raise money? When was your first VC meeting?

A So first, uh, VC funding was, uh, from Brent Hoberman who invested like, you know, a small seed check alongside with a, an outfit called pro founders, um, here out of, out of London, Sean Seaton Rogers. Exactly. And that was actually really, Weird because, you know, I got a ticket, um, in a sponsor ticket, I think through some like lottery or something to go to low web, which was like a big startup conference at the time. And Brent was on stage and, you know, I couldn't raise VC funding. We had this business that was constantly going bankrupt, but growing really fast. And then, you know, I, I just hit Brent up after he was on stage and said, like, I'm in travel. You found it last minute. We should talk. And he was like, okay, interesting. Here's my business card. And, you know, picked up the business card, uh, you know, wrote him an email, just like cold email basically. And he said, you know, come and see me in London. But I think it's like, I don't even know whether he really knew who I was or what I was doing. So I remember I, I went to see Brent at the made.com offices, um, you know, back then this probably like, 2011, 2012. And I had to wait for four hours to get like a 10 minute meeting, uh, with Brent. And I still vividly remember the meeting. I think he does too. And I was basically, you know, this is what we're doing. You know, we're creating, um, you know, the experie…

AI assessment note: “So first, uh, VC funding was, uh, from Brent Hoberman”

Q Did you do that quick enough? Because sometimes you can leave it quite late.

A I did it. Thankfully, I did it quick enough, and I got incredibly lucky that at the time, a, um, person that's not actually not very well-known in the European startup ecosystem, it was probably one of the most successful European founders of all time, called Case Colon, Uh, called me up. Um, you know, one Friday night I was watching Netflix with my wife, you know, was sitting there and, you know, he called me up and he said, you know, here's Case Kolan, and I obviously knew him because he was the founder and CEO of Booking.com. And he said, you know, look, Johannes, I just left Booking.com. I've heard about your company. I think you're onto something. Um, give me your numbers. So I run him through the numbers. He was like, you know, give me like every cohort and like, you know, every kind of like supplier. And it was just like really going deep, like on the first call. And by the end of it, it was like, you know, one and a half hours. And he said, this is interesting. I'm going to be in Berlin tomorrow morning, nine AM at your office. This is Saturday morning, right? And, you know, next morning I, nine AM I'm there. So a case is there. And like, he goes to the meeting room with me and to the whiteboard. And like, he basically maps out like the entire journey of like, you know, where he sees value and like where I see value asked a ton of questions. It was literally like, you k…

AI assessment note: “Thankfully, I did it quick enough, and I got incredibly lucky”

Q Now I would love to start with the beginning because I hear that Get Your Guide is actually the result of great friendship. It's you and Tao coming up with an idea from university together. Can you just take me back to you and Tao sitting in a room together, deciding you're going to start a company together?

A Yeah, totally. So this is actually 2007, 2008. Um, you know, Tao and I were both students at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. He was doing physics. I was doing biochemistry and neurobiology. So something very remote from online travel. And, uh, we both led a student delegation to Beijing and China, uh, at the time. And I made a pivotal mistake in that I booked my flight ticket a day early and arrived in Beijing, uh, without the group. And, you know, I was trying to, you know, do stuff then in my hotel room. I logged on the internet, you know, it was like, Going on Google, trying to find things to do, going to the Beijing wall, like doing something with the day, and I couldn't find anything. I was stuck in the hotel room. Next day Tao shows up, you know, he, he shows me the city. Um, you know, we go and see, um, the Beijing wall, the great wall, you know, we have Beijing duck, you know, in the hutong. So it was like a really special day. And, um, you know, from that epiphany really of like having seen the, the city through the eyes of a local, someone who speaks the language, We went back, um, to Switzerland to ETH and said, you know, we have to build a website. We have to build a community for people, uh, so they are able to do that. And, and we did that. And like the prequel to, to get your guide was like, we were building a travel community for everyone to be a guid…

AI assessment note: “We went back, um, to Switzerland to ETH and said, you know, we have to build”

Q When we look at those bad hires, what do you wish you'd known then that you know now about what makes a good hire and what you did wrong there?

A I think you need fundamentally different people for a series A to series C D stage company than, you know, for a pre IPO or public company with billions in revenue. And I do see it today being on the other side of that. People who are incredibly effective at Netflix or Meta or Google, or, you know, even get your guy today are not the type of people who really thrive, um, you know, with a 30 or 50 people company where you still need to Continue to refine that core product market fit, uh, where the way how you manage and do things so different because you're in the weeds every day with the team. You need to ship stuff. You need to be really opinionated about what's going on. And then the muscle that you have later on around, you know, managing multiple teams, managing organizations, doing roadmaps and, you know, creating more structure in the organization, which you need at some point, otherwise things don't work anymore. Um, when you are at a certain scale, those are just fundamentally different skillsets and typically also different types of people. Oftentimes VCs mix these two phases. So you really need to have these very entrepreneurial people, um, in the early days who oftentimes, by the way, don't work out in the late days. Um, so when you're going public and, you know, that stage of, of your life, those are not the same type of skillsets. So it's really about, can you find…

AI assessment note: “you need fundamentally different people for a series A to series C D stage company”

Q What happens then? We start to see this borders open up and we start to see the world come back. Cause we, I don't know in Germany quite how it worked for you, but in the UK we had like the summer of opening up before like the winter of closing down again. You had the same?

A We had the same. So Europe unfortunately was a disaster for, for two years. We had Spikes again, where people did some domestic experiences and some domestic bookings, there was some trouble going on. That was the hardest part was, you know, the hope coming back. And, you know, as a CEO, you want to energize the company, but you also want to be careful and not, you know, giving them false hope. Um, so that was really difficult. And, you know, 20, 21 is slightly better because the US, um, where we had built up, uh, you know, presence at that point in time already had a very robust domestic Stick markets. So, so that was actually driving a lot of the demand in 20, 21, but it was still 50%, uh, below, uh, 2019 and 20 21. So, so severely depressed and we're still burning through oodles of cash every month.

AI assessment note: “We had the same. So Europe unfortunately was a disaster for, for two years.”

Q Did you feel the weight of that at that point? 1.6?

A No, not really, to be honest. Um, at that time I was already, um, so used to tremendous amounts of pressure and, you know, being at the helm of this company. What, what did change was that suddenly I felt like a celebrity. Um, you know, it was like, you're going into rooms, like everyone was trying to please you. You know, it's like, you know, everyone wanted to do business with you. All of like, you know, the VPs of like the Googles and matters, like we're calling me up. And you know, all of the VCs in the world wanted to have a meeting, and it was suddenly speaking of you as, as if you were like the greatest and like smartest person on the planet. That's when I...

AI assessment note: “No, not really, to be honest. Um, at that time I was already”

Q Can I ask, given all, just before we move to that, before we say, do you advise founders then always take the money if it's on the table? Yeah, you could look at your SoftBank round and go, wow, it's ridiculous, crazy amount of money. But no, actually it wasn't, and it turned out to be incredibly prescient. If it's there, take it or not?

A I don't think there's a general rule. So I do think that founders can overrace, particularly in the early days. I told the story of my 20 13 race. So I don't think founders should take too much cash too early. So I often advise against that. But fundamentally, if you have traction and if there is a big market opportunity, and if it's clear that there will be plenty of competition later down the road, make sure you raise the capital and make sure that you go fast. But the, The tricky part is to maintain the discipline of raising and then not overspending in your own organization and staying nimble and staying focused, right? So you need to do both. You need to stay incredibly focused on building out your core customer segments, your core value proposition, and then you ultimately need to out-raise your competition. You need to do both at the same time.

AI assessment note: “I don't think there's a general rule.”

Q Got you. How has investing changed how you think about operating? Seeing 30, 40 companies grow, build the founders within them. How is seeing that as an investor change how you think about operating?

A Very much so. So, so I had a couple of, um, learnings, I think being an investor that really changed my worldview and that, um, before investing, I thought there was just one way to be successful and that was the way how we built Get Your Guide because I saw how that worked and I had some such strong beliefs and I'm such an opinionated CEO and I was so opinionated and deliberate about building our culture and all of that. Even the operating model and the strategy, I felt there was just one way to do it. And then for instance, take a trade Republic, which, um, you know, is a very successful fintech company, probably one of the most underrated companies in Europe, you know, they're absolutely crushing it. And the founder is great, but in many ways, what he's built in terms of culture, in terms of operating model is a 180 degrees different to what I've built. Like I would not make the same decisions at all, like in many instances, but he's very, very successful.

AI assessment note: “I thought there was just one way to be successful and that was the way”

Q So I, um, posted the other day that if you want to win today, in other words, be not point, not one percent successful, you have to work seven days a week. Silicon Valley has turned up the intensity and that is the new reality. Do you agree with me?

A This is a very tough question because any founder who's built a successful company will remember that they did work seven days a week, right? So, so it, it does happen. It, I don't know of any founder personally, none of the ones that I've backed and certainly not me personally, who have not been absolutely obsessed, uh, and have not worked insane working hours at the same point in time. I think the, Danger with the general statements is it is not always the same throughout the entire journey. And clearly I would not expect today people to work seven hours, uh, sorry, seven days a week, um, at, uh, get your guide. And I don't work seven days a week anymore. In fact, uh, there comes a time when working too much can actually destroy your startup as well, because after a time it is actually much more about sustainable. Growth and sustainable working hours at very high intensity at scale. So today, you know, I'm much more focused on...

AI assessment note: “danger with the general statements is it is not always the same”

Q In those two years, what are you doing? And when you have three to five bookings and three is your mother, God loves your mother. Mothers are brilliant, aren't they? But like, what are you doing?

A Completing our degrees. So we were still at uni at the time. So we're still at uni living honestly off Very little money at the time. But the, the great thing about it was, um, you know, we could fail, like there was no problem in failing. And, um, even more so it was just a lot of fun. Like, you know, we didn't do that really to build a company. Even at the time it was more like, you know, this is a great space. You know, we want to build like a really successful web product. You know, Facebook was going viral at the time. So those were like the days of web two point O. And we're really working at night, to be honest, like we were studying throughout the day and then at night we'd do this.

AI assessment note: “Completing our degrees. So we were still at uni at the time.”

Q Like we don't want to move to the U S. What advice do you have to founders who are on the 50th meeting with VCs? And it just doesn't seem to be hitting. It does not seem to be resonating. To what extent are you like? Go back to the drawing board. It's your story. You're not resonating. Versus it's just a game of numbers. Keep going.

A It's very hard to compare the days back then to, you know, what we have today. I think that the constant is you have to have tremendous tenacity and you will have to pitch a hundred times and it will only work once maybe. But I think what's different is you can refine your story and you can refine your product market fit so much more these days. And you have so much bigger of a community of mentors and best practices. All of which I didn't have at the time. I didn't have anyone to talk to who had done that before. And I think that's really the big difference that I would really lean into today, like lean into the ecosystem and, um, get that help, uh, that is out there because today there's just so many people who have done it before who have had the lessons and who can help you succeed.

AI assessment note: “you have to have tremendous tenacity and you will have to pitch a hundred times”

Q When we look at those bad hires, what do you wish you'd known then that you know now about what makes a good hire and what you did wrong there?

A I think you need fundamentally different people for a series A to series C D stage company than, you know, for a pre IPO or public company with billions in revenue. And I do see it today being on the other side of that. People who are incredibly effective at Netflix or Meta or Google, or, you know, even get your guy today are not the type of people who really thrive, um, you know, with a 30 or 50 people company where you still need to Continue to refine that core product market fit, uh, where the way how you manage and do things so different because you're in the weeds every day with the team. You need to ship stuff. You need to be really opinionated about what's going on. And then the muscle that you have later on around, you know, managing multiple teams, managing organizations, doing roadmaps and, you know, creating more structure in the organization, which you need at some point, otherwise things don't work anymore. Um, when you are at a certain scale, those are just fundamentally different skillsets and typically also different types of people. Oftentimes VCs mix these two phases. So you really need to have these very entrepreneurial people, um, in the early days who oftentimes, by the way, don't work out in the late days. Um, so when you're going public and, you know, that stage of, of your life, those are not the same type of skillsets. So it's really about, can you find…

AI assessment note: “you need fundamentally different people for a series A to series C D stage company”

Q not think we're going to see the concentration of capital towards few people and wealth inequality like never before? We're in these kind of rarefied areas. We both came from the same conference where everyone's loaded, and everyone at the top is just getting so much richer, and that will get smaller and smaller, and we will get richer and richer, as blunt as it sounds. Does that know why?

A I think in Europe much less than the US, uh, to be honest. I think that's, again, something that's quite Positive about Europe. If you look at Germany and many other European countries, our Gini coefficient is actually quite healthy, uh, overall, and we have a ton of redistribution. So I don't think that redistribution per se in Europe is our biggest problem. I think it's rather how we choose to invest that money. And if I'd sum up, you know, my, uh, claim here is I'd say we need to invest that more in the younger generation, not just in the older generation. I think ultimately we'll need to make sure that the older generation understands that that's That's the right thing to do.

AI assessment note: “I think in Europe much less than the US, uh, to be honest.”

Q I was at law school when I started the show and it wasn't actually that risky. If the show didn't work, I'd just carry on being a lawyer. Luckily, the show worked, and so I could drop out. But, like, my question to you is, do you think you have to be all in, or can you do the, no, I'm gonna build it alongside university and see what works?

A No, uh, respectfully you have to be all in and we had an all in moment. Um, so the first iteration of the product actually failed, right? As I told you, and then we had to go out with the second iteration and with that second iteration, you know, we were done with our degrees and like, we really needed to try to make this work because it was clear. You can't just do this on the side. You really need to sign up supply. Now you need to sort of like build an online marketing function on need to do online marketing. And at that point in time, Um, we really needed to go full time with a prototype that was unproven and two years of failure, right? So in, in a weird way, it was a very stressful moment and even worse, I need to go to my parents and basically say, hi, you need to fund me for like another year after university. So, you know, can you please, you know, put a mortgage on your house and like fund me because there was no seed capital available. No one would give a bunch of students money at the time for an idea that wasn't proven.

AI assessment note: “No, uh, respectfully you have to be all in”

Q What gave you the conviction? Respectfully, you had two years of it not working. Where did you get the conviction to say, hey, parents, remortgage the house, fund me, it's gonna work.

A So honestly, I have no idea looking back. Um, I think like the best thing, um, that happened to me at the time was that I had this group of co-founders that was really strongly tightly knit after this. So like, you know, one of one and a half years, two years of like doing this prototype. And we just really got along so well, and it was just so joyful to go to work every morning with them and like create something. So it was really more of a gut feeling that this is the right thing to do. It just felt right. Than anything else. Um, but the way how we operated at the time was really being in this deep tunnel. You know, I, I once met the great race car driver, Nico Rosberg, like formula one champion. And he said, you know, when you go and race, right, you look at the road, you don't look at the wall, because if you look at the wall as a race car driver, gonna hit the wall. Like, so stay focused, focus on the road. And I think that's very much what it, what it felt like at the time. Like we were even, Considering failing. Like for me, like failure was non-optional. It was like, you know, that that's not a valid option. We will stay the course. We'll win this.

AI assessment note: “So it was really more of a gut feeling that this is the right thing”

Q Wow. Can I ask you, that's quite a lot of dilution. How do you think about and advise founders on dilution today?

A I would have not raised as big of a series A looking back. I think it was too much dilution. Ultimately it all worked out because, you know, if you're in the company for long enough, you know, this is a founder re-ups and all of that. So I would say personally, uh, it didn't matter, but I do think, um, you should actually manage dilution, um, because otherwise you end up, you know, with problems with your employees, you know, with the, you know, other investors and also the select Share of like early stage investors just gets too large, which might be a problem later down the road. We fortunately at Get Your Guide got all of that fixed over the years, but I do think at the time was a little bit too much.

AI assessment note: “I do think, um, you should actually manage dilution, um, because otherwise you end up”

Q Did you feel the weight of that at that point? 1.6?

A No, not really, to be honest. Um, at that time I was already, um, so used to tremendous amounts of pressure and, you know, being at the helm of this company. What, what did change was that suddenly I felt like a celebrity. Um, you know, it was like, you're going into rooms, like everyone was trying to please you. You know, it's like, you know, everyone wanted to do business with you. All of like, you know, the VPs of like the Googles and matters, like we're calling me up. And you know, all of the VCs in the world wanted to have a meeting, and it was suddenly speaking of you as, as if you were like the greatest and like smartest person on the planet. That's when I...

AI assessment note: “No, not really, to be honest. Um, at that time I was already”

Q So I, um, posted the other day that if you want to win today, in other words, be not point, not one percent successful, you have to work seven days a week. Silicon Valley has turned up the intensity and that is the new reality. Do you agree with me?

A This is a very tough question because any founder who's built a successful company will remember that they did work seven days a week, right? So, so it, it does happen. It, I don't know of any founder personally, none of the ones that I've backed and certainly not me personally, who have not been absolutely obsessed, uh, and have not worked insane working hours at the same point in time. I think the, Danger with the general statements is it is not always the same throughout the entire journey. And clearly I would not expect today people to work seven hours, uh, sorry, seven days a week, um, at, uh, get your guide. And I don't work seven days a week anymore. In fact, uh, there comes a time when working too much can actually destroy your startup as well, because after a time it is actually much more about sustainable. Growth and sustainable working hours at very high intensity at scale. So today, you know, I'm much more focused on...

AI assessment note: “any founder who's built a successful company will remember that they did work seven days”

Q So where did you invest in that time? That allowed you to come out stronger post fire.

A So we, um, did a couple of like very extraordinary measures. First of all, we came back with that vision and that target picture to our entire organization and particularly the engineering and product org, which is the majority of our expenses on, on the people side. And we told them, we would love for you to reduce your salary, but we'll give you shares as a compensation. So if this actually works out, Financially will be great for you. Um, but you'll need to take the short-term hit. And what happened was magical. Um, our product and edge organization, and, and even beyond that into management function, people on average reduced their salaries by more than 30% in exchange for shares. Some people went down to like 80% salary reduction in, in leadership. I kid you not. It was crazy. It was such a testament, um, to their belief in, in the company. And then for a lot of the other operational staff, there was, um, uh, these short time labor, you know, things in Germany and elsewhere where, you know, the government would actually cover some of the cost. And with these type of measures, we basically could go very deep into the pandemic and only had to cut marginally. So we only had to ultimately lay off throughout the entire two years roughly, 15 to 20% of the staff, not a single engineer, not a single product person. Despite being at zero revenues for more than a year afterwards.

AI assessment note: “not a single engineer, not a single product person”

Q So we raise this million at whatever, five or six or whatever the price was. What happens then? That's our first bit of money. Where do we go and double down and how does that change?

A So from there on, um, you know, we continued with our, you know, I would say like bootstrapping mode, but you know, with a little bit more money and so like not going bankrupt all the time, which is positive. But, um, what brand actually then did is he pretty much immediately afterwards set up, um, you know, meeting with a bunch of, uh, VC funds in the U S and that referral from him as a proven traveler entrepreneur made all of the difference. So suddenly we're starting to get meetings and people Got more interested and just, you know, there was just a much better reference for me as a first time founder as well. And, uh, ultimately there was a, uh, partner called Alex Finkelstein at spark capital. It took like a very keen interest in get your guide. And he was like, no, this is interesting. Like there's something there. And then he led the a round in, and that was really the moment that get your guide was transformed.

AI assessment note: “he led the a round in, and that was really the moment”

Q Got you. Were you pleased with that price? It's a hard one where it's like, you know, you've done so much better as a business, But the price is probably quite high from 20 21. And so it's a tough one to kind of match.

A Yeah. So, um, this is where you get into, um, you know, the whining of the CEO and a consumer internet company these days. Like, you know, we all feel that we're very undervalued compared to a lot of other AI or like even SaaS businesses. But the reality is it is what it is. Like, I do think that, um, at the end of the day, you know, these valuations, um, you know, will, you know, Expand and sometimes they will contract and you need to build a really good business. I very much empathize now with Jeff Bezos, who said, you know, willing to be misunderstood, right? So I think you need to invest for the long term and then maybe the valuation will be slightly below where you would personally want it. You know, that's fine as well, because ultimately I don't need to sell any shares, right? I'm going to be in this for a long run. We're profitable. We're investing. We're growing like crazy. The numbers are amazing. They're better than they've ever been. I'm pretty sure that over time, you know, the valuation will take care of itself.

AI assessment note: “we all feel that we're very undervalued compared to a lot of other AI”

Q I'm just seeing so many founder re-up packages now and my investors are getting screwed and it's like, why are we getting screwed? Do you know what I mean?

A Totally. No, look, I think the, the founder incentives, uh, that you see, uh, first and foremost should happen after a longer period of time. Right. So, so, you know, if I look at myself, I think the first founder incentive package that I personally, um, got awarded, um, by the board with, um, I think happened after like a decade or so. Wow. So it's like much, much later. And then there's a lot of market best practices and standards. And, you know, if you're a more mature company, you know, an investment bank can come in and like benchmark that against peer companies and then it works out. But at the end of the day, you know, at that point in time, you get awarded as a founder CEO, right. Or like as a founder, Management team, um, you know, for the work that you're doing, um, in terms of driving share price for shareholders over the next decade.

AI assessment note: “founder incentives, uh, that you see, uh, first and foremost should happen after a longer period”

Q What happens then? We start to see this borders open up and we start to see the world come back. Cause we, I don't know in Germany quite how it worked for you, but in the UK we had like the summer of opening up before like the winter of closing down again. You had the same?

A We had the same. So Europe unfortunately was a disaster for, for two years. We had Spikes again, where people did some domestic experiences and some domestic bookings, there was some trouble going on. That was the hardest part was, you know, the hope coming back. And, you know, as a CEO, you want to energize the company, but you also want to be careful and not, you know, giving them false hope. Um, so that was really difficult. And, you know, 20, 21 is slightly better because the US, um, where we had built up, uh, you know, presence at that point in time already had a very robust domestic Stick markets. So, so that was actually driving a lot of the demand in 20, 21, but it was still 50%, uh, below, uh, 2019 and 20 21. So, so severely depressed and we're still burning through oodles of cash every month.

AI assessment note: “We had the same. So Europe unfortunately was a disaster for, for two years.”

Q What do you advise young founders who are approaching that? You invest as well, and you see some founders where You can almost see them getting sucked into the vortex of tech power and influence and money, and you're like, oh, that's going to lead you badly.

A Yeah. I don't think you'll be successful if you will. If you look at the most successful founders in Europe, like you look at a Peter van der Doze, right? You know, you look at, you know, Mickey from, from Vault, like all of those people are like very grounded people. Um, they are super smart. They've been working on their companies for a long period of time. And they don't get eaten up, um, by their success and by their wealth. In fact, they reinvest a lot of this into the startup ecosystem, which is like the same thing that I'm doing. Like, I don't think that, um, you know, hanging out with that type of crowd or living in that world brings you joy and fulfillment. Like what brings me joy and fulfillment personally is seeing the next founder succeed.

AI assessment note: “I don't think that, um, you know, hanging out with that type of crowd”

Q My brother just had a baby. What's your biggest advice to a new parent on being a killer at work and also smashing parenting?

A Yeah, exactly. Don't do that. Don't, don't be too hard on yourself. You, you will not be a perfect parent and that's fine. And you also won't be a perfect CEO. Um, and that's also fine. I think find your balance. I think balance is the most important thing when you're a parent and you're growing a tech company and you have that demand on you. Um, so really like make sure that you find time for both. And at the end of the day, you know, when we're 6070, 80, I mean, Get Your Guide will be a very important part of my life, and I will want to make sure that that is as successful as possible, but at the same point in time, I think my kids will mean more than anything else in the world.

AI assessment note: “Don't be too hard on yourself. You will not be a perfect parent”

Q Like we don't want to move to the U S. What advice do you have to founders who are on the 50th meeting with VCs? And it just doesn't seem to be hitting. It does not seem to be resonating. To what extent are you like? Go back to the drawing board. It's your story. You're not resonating. Versus it's just a game of numbers. Keep going.

A It's very hard to compare the days back then to, you know, what we have today. I think that the constant is you have to have tremendous tenacity and you will have to pitch a hundred times and it will only work once maybe. But I think what's different is you can refine your story and you can refine your product market fit so much more these days. And you have so much bigger of a community of mentors and best practices. All of which I didn't have at the time. I didn't have anyone to talk to who had done that before. And I think that's really the big difference that I would really lean into today, like lean into the ecosystem and, um, get that help, uh, that is out there because today there's just so many people who have done it before who have had the lessons and who can help you succeed.

AI assessment note: “you can refine your story and you can refine your product market fit”