The Exchanges

Q Um, I want to do a quick fire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. What do others not know that you know to be true, Joey?

A There's a survey that goes out, um, from a couple of different companies. Every single survey that comes back about social issues that consumers care about. Environment's number one across almost every single one with the exception of like blips in time when something major happens in the world. So for a six month period, maybe it's that one. But at the same time, they go out and buy a three dollar and 78 cent polyester t-shirt. Or sweater from Shein and have no connection between their value orientation around what matters and what they consume. So this say do gap as, as it would be referred to is pretty vast at the moment. I do think that that will close. And when that closes, um, the companies who are positioned where they're delivering excellence on every dimension that the consumer wants from the product outside of sustainability, but also delivering, um, on that promise around alignment with their values. Those are going to be the biggest companies of the next generation, and that's what we're trying to build. So there'll be more skeptics than not skeptics on that perspective. Uh, however, I think that's the great unlock for the next great generation of brands.

AI assessment note: “there'll be more skeptics than not skeptics on that perspective.”

Q But I do, I do want to ask then, what core pillars have you taken in terms of culture from the likes of Mars, Zingerman's, and Netflix that have really been kind of fundamental?

A We think that culture kind of creates what you see as the output of a company. Almost exclusively is, is the thing that will make or break the success of our company. So we did something early on where we took something called the Mars project, which is, which is the work of a Stanford professor. It's about, you're going to go colonize Mars with a group of a small group of people. And that's how you want the new planet to be established and for the core tenants to take root. Who would those people be? And what would, what would the values be that they stood for? So we did that at our company. We ran that exercise. It took a long time. And we came out with a crisp set of mission and values, which are the guideposts for how we, how we seek to get that, that kind of never able to reach type of end goal. And we came out with a set of values, which are for us very unique to us and what we think will make us successful, which is to live curiously, act intentionally and simplify naturally. And then what is the actual vision and how do we actually get there? And so we actually took this Kind of process from a Jewish deli in Ann Arbor, Michigan called Zingerman's. We took a visioning exercise, and we had the same Mars group of people, Mars team, come together and wrote down, put themselves 10 years in the future. We did this in the summer of 16, so in 20, 26, looking back and writing ab…

AI assessment note: “we took something called the Mars project... took this Kind of process from a Jewish deli”

Q Terrible, terrible references that people give us, clearly. Can I ask, did you have acquisition offers along the way? I think often a lot of founders hear shows and they don't actually hear this side. Did you ever have acquisition offers?

A You never know. If an acquisition offer is a real acquisition offer until the piece of paper is in front of you and you have the opportunity to sign it. And so nothing ever got to that point. Um, but we've had, we've had a number of companies, um, in the footwear space and, and the kind of ecosystem of, of apparel and footwear more broadly come to us and ask us if we were interested in selling. It's nothing I'm ideologically opposed to. Same for Tim. Um, we want to We want to achieve the multi-generational brand potential that we've, we've created in the early years, and if that's best done with a partner, that's something we would consider, and if it's best done independently, um, then we'll take that path, and so far it's been, it's been the latter.

AI assessment note: “nothing ever got to that point. Um, but we've had”

Q You said about Wall Street writing you off. Does that anger you? Like, I'd be pissed off that, like, if someone writes me off, I'm like, I'm I'm annoyed.

A It's humbling. No doubt. Uh, you know, when you, when you, uh, we went public at 15 dollars a share and now we're at like a dollar dropping more than 90% of the value for shareholders that you orient the success of your business around. Um, and I take that responsibility incredibly seriously, uh, as does everyone at our company up and down from the, uh, the person who just started yesterday on the, on the planning team to our board members, um, and including myself, that is of, Of our utmost concern. And so when we don't deliver for, for those people, um, that is, that is a humbling experience. And, you know, there's a lot that happened in the capital markets when interest rates went up significantly, that was unavoidable for us to expect that everything would be exactly the same. However, uh, it doesn't absolve any of the responsibility that I feel to drive the shareholder value that we create. And so I'm not annoyed. I'm not angry. Uh, I'm, I'm emboldened to, uh, make sure that we get it back and deliver much more than, uh, when we came out. Like I've always envisioned that the IPO price that we came out with was a good starting point and that people that invested alongside us, uh, at the IPO would make lots of money in the fullness of time, you know, given the way things have changed, uh, they're going to need to hang on for a couple of years right now. And, and as we, as we…

AI assessment note: “And so I'm not annoyed. I'm not angry. Uh, I'm, I'm emboldened”

Q What did you pull back on? If you don't mind me asking.

A Lots of things. I mean, we, we pulled back on distribution. So really it's like product and distribution in our business. And then there's marketing. We got too fat with inventory. So we needed to like clean that up. So this year has, that's been the number one priority for, for our business this year is honestly from a financial perspective, at least is cleaning up inventory along the way. We got to, um, refresh the product, improve it significantly to get back to that really active core that you, that you referenced earlier. And in the process of doing that, we wanted to pull back on distribution. So we stopped all store growth. We pulled back on some of the wholesale expansion and we then pulled back Probably, I don't know exactly the exact number, but high teens marketing, um, in terms of, uh, year over year comparisons on the dollars we spent. So all of that has been pulled back. And as a result of that, of course, like you're, you're likely to see, um, sales decline, but that that's actually well part of the plan for us. And when we come through this year, which is quite transitional, we'll have a very healthy and clean inventory Uh, we will be poised to, uh, lean into the products that we come to market with and the innovation that we come, come with and, and that we can bring joy around those products through the marketing we do. Uh, and, and that's, that's a recipe for…

AI assessment note: “we stopped all store growth. We pulled back on some of the wholesale expansion”

Q Are you anxious about the macro ahead? I mean, that sounds like a very kind of big and shit meta question, but it obviously has a knock-on effect on, on luxury, on retail, you know, LVMH posted not so great numbers for the first time almost in my fucking memory. And when do LVMH not post good numbers? Jesus, then we are in trouble. Um, but does that worry you?

A No, the consumer is in a more delicate and fragile situation than people understand and that it's going to be more difficult and there's going to be less spending than people think in the coming six months. But that's just a reality. That's my belief. And so we're structuring the business around that belief. Um, and, and that means a little bit more conservatism and investment and playing offense in the areas that we think we can really generate value for, for the, For the people, for, for, for our business. If your question is, do I think that there's weakness ahead? Yes. If I am anxious about that, the answer is no. And anyone who has that belief, I would hope that they're doing something about it to structure their business in a way to be extremely resilient within that framework, because there's going to be cycles up and down and it's, it's how you structure and respond to those that, that, um, that create the value or not.

AI assessment note: “If I am anxious about that, the answer is no.”

Q Terrible, terrible references that people give us, clearly. Can I ask, did you have acquisition offers along the way? I think often a lot of founders hear shows and they don't actually hear this side. Did you ever have acquisition offers?

A You never know. If an acquisition offer is a real acquisition offer until the piece of paper is in front of you and you have the opportunity to sign it. And so nothing ever got to that point. Um, but we've had, we've had a number of companies, um, in the footwear space and, and the kind of ecosystem of, of apparel and footwear more broadly come to us and ask us if we were interested in selling. It's nothing I'm ideologically opposed to. Same for Tim. Um, we want to We want to achieve the multi-generational brand potential that we've, we've created in the early years, and if that's best done with a partner, that's something we would consider, and if it's best done independently, um, then we'll take that path, and so far it's been, it's been the latter.

AI assessment note: “nothing ever got to that point. Um, but we've had, we've had a number”

Q What do you think is the biggest difference between being public and being private, Joey?

A Everyone's seeing everything you're doing every single day. And, you know, businesses don't, uh, don't happen on quarterly cycles, but financial reporting and public markets do. And so, you know, you do have to face the reality that, uh, every single thing that you're doing from, from that point, when you become a public company into the future is exposed for all to see the good and the bad. That's a, a stark difference from when you're a private company, when, Uh, you can do, uh, you can make certain decisions that, that, um, have zero implication, uh, because you happen to be, uh, reporting at that specific quarter. And, and in this case it's not. And so in some ways the discipline is excellent. It forces you to have a cadence that is, um, driving urgency towards the business. And in some cases it could be a little bit in tension with the long-term build of the business, but we've tried to structure things in a way Um, both from a governance perspective and from a capitalization perspective that allow us to be, uh, really good stewards of any investor who, uh, has belief in the brand for the long-term and sees the potential of, of what we've created from the early days and now just need to execute on, on the business side to bring it, uh, bring this, bring those two things in convergence.

AI assessment note: “Everyone's seeing everything you're doing every single day.”

Q You said about Wall Street writing you off. Does that anger you? Like, I'd be pissed off that, like, if someone writes me off, I'm like, I'm I'm annoyed.

A It's humbling. No doubt. Uh, you know, when you, when you, uh, we went public at 15 dollars a share and now we're at like a dollar dropping more than 90% of the value for shareholders that you orient the success of your business around. Um, and I take that responsibility incredibly seriously, uh, as does everyone at our company up and down from the, uh, the person who just started yesterday on the, on the planning team to our board members, um, and including myself, that is of, Of our utmost concern. And so when we don't deliver for, for those people, um, that is, that is a humbling experience. And, you know, there's a lot that happened in the capital markets when interest rates went up significantly, that was unavoidable for us to expect that everything would be exactly the same. However, uh, it doesn't absolve any of the responsibility that I feel to drive the shareholder value that we create. And so I'm not annoyed. I'm not angry. Uh, I'm, I'm emboldened to, uh, make sure that we get it back and deliver much more than, uh, when we came out. Like I've always envisioned that the IPO price that we came out with was a good starting point and that people that invested alongside us, uh, at the IPO would make lots of money in the fullness of time, you know, given the way things have changed, uh, they're going to need to hang on for a couple of years right now. And, and as we, as we…

AI assessment note: “And so I'm not annoyed. I'm not angry. Uh, I'm, I'm emboldened”

Q At this market cap, are you not like, fuck it, Tim, let's take this private again?

A Nothing ideologically opposed, private or public. I think we have everything we need right now. The, the, the, Uh, to, to control our destiny and to do everything we believe we need to do to, um, build an incredible, incredible business and an incredible brand. If along that journey, uh, the, the public markets don't see the value that we're creating, and there's a big gap between the value that we are creating and, and what the enterprise value is of the company, then I think it's, it's prudent to consider all options. And, and we have a board that Does their duty quite responsibly to make sure we're thinking about all the options all the time. And, and when we see a huge gap between, between that for a very prolonged period of time, then it's, it's something that has to be considered.

AI assessment note: “Nothing ideologically opposed, private or public. I think we have everything we need right now.”

Q What did you pull back on? If you don't mind me asking.

A Lots of things. I mean, we, we pulled back on distribution. So really it's like product and distribution in our business. And then there's marketing. We got too fat with inventory. So we needed to like clean that up. So this year has, that's been the number one priority for, for our business this year is honestly from a financial perspective, at least is cleaning up inventory along the way. We got to, um, refresh the product, improve it significantly to get back to that really active core that you, that you referenced earlier. And in the process of doing that, we wanted to pull back on distribution. So we stopped all store growth. We pulled back on some of the wholesale expansion and we then pulled back Probably, I don't know exactly the exact number, but high teens marketing, um, in terms of, uh, year over year comparisons on the dollars we spent. So all of that has been pulled back. And as a result of that, of course, like you're, you're likely to see, um, sales decline, but that that's actually well part of the plan for us. And when we come through this year, which is quite transitional, we'll have a very healthy and clean inventory Uh, we will be poised to, uh, lean into the products that we come to market with and the innovation that we come, come with and, and that we can bring joy around those products through the marketing we do. Uh, and, and that's, that's a recipe for…

AI assessment note: “we stopped all store growth. We pulled back on some of the wholesale expansion”

Q How has how you deal with stress change? I remember some of my hardest times showed me the pits of how bad times can be and how I deal with stress today is I remember those to gain perspective as to how bad it could be.

A In the last two years I would say probably the biggest change has been, um, the reliance on the team that I work with a little bit, um, differently. Having a focus on Giving room for myself included to really express what people are thinking and what those anxieties are in a room very regularly, uh, with those people who are on the team is been not just cathartic, but also really helpful because some of those anxieties are grounded in, in reality. Like you should be anxious about this. Like there's something not going well. Like, why are you losing sleep about this? So I'd say that that's one element and the other stuff of Of, um, fitness and stuff like that that I need to do and hobbies on the side that I need to do just to keep myself saying, like, that's been pretty consistent.

AI assessment note: “the biggest change has been, um, the reliance on the team”

Q Are you anxious about the macro ahead? I mean, that sounds like a very kind of big and shit meta question, but it obviously has a knock-on effect on, on luxury, on retail, you know, LVMH posted not so great numbers for the first time almost in my fucking memory. And when do LVMH not post good numbers? Jesus, then we are in trouble. Um, but does that worry you?

A No, the consumer is in a more delicate and fragile situation than people understand and that it's going to be more difficult and there's going to be less spending than people think in the coming six months. But that's just a reality. That's my belief. And so we're structuring the business around that belief. Um, and, and that means a little bit more conservatism and investment and playing offense in the areas that we think we can really generate value for, for the, For the people, for, for, for our business. If your question is, do I think that there's weakness ahead? Yes. If I am anxious about that, the answer is no. And anyone who has that belief, I would hope that they're doing something about it to structure their business in a way to be extremely resilient within that framework, because there's going to be cycles up and down and it's, it's how you structure and respond to those that, that, um, that create the value or not.

AI assessment note: “If I am anxious about that, the answer is no.”

Q A consumer's loyal. I had this debate at dinner with my girlfriend last night, and I said, sorry, uh, running shoe-wise, I'm Nike. I don't wear anything else. I'm Nike. I have been for years. And she's like, no, no, no. Like, actually, do this. Are consumers loyal or not when it comes to shoes?

A Yeah, I mean, I think, look, the average American consumer buys eight pairs of shoes a year. That's men, women, and child. And, and so that's about two and a half billion pairs of shoes sold every year. There's a bunch of very specific uses within a person's closet that they're looking for a shoe to deliver. And then there's, um, uh, probably a little bit more, uh, broader based, uh, opportunities and within certain areas of the closet, I'd say there's, um, there's, there's varying degrees of loyalty and there's always an open-mindedness to try. Like the, the, the amazing thing about in the U S in particular, this is true. Like people love innovation and they're always willing to try and they love to be, uh, to figure out something that's going to do something new for them. And so there's always, always some willingness to, to try. Um, that said, I think once you build a really deep connection with a consumer, um, they are incredibly loyal and how does that translate in terms of business and purchase frequency different for every business, but we found incredible love from our consumers and, and, um, we try to respect that Deeply with very transparent communication and listening to their feedback and building them the products as quickly as we can.

AI assessment note: “within certain areas of the closet, I'd say there's... varying degrees of loyalty”

Q How do you decide what to say yes to? How do you prioritize that?

A Just one absolutely simple filter, which is make the absolute best experience for the customer and absolutely everything else can fall away. You say, do you want to pop up screen on your, on your internet site that says get 10% off for, if you enter your email, you know what that message says to you. It says you're about to get spammed by my company. In exchange for 10% off, it cheapens the experience, so we, we said absolutely no to that. We said, do you want, um, to come out with 12 different products when you launch out of the gate, or do you want to just do one, and do one product really, really well, and create, and focus on the customer to make the best experience, and literally every decision we made was centered around that, and, you know, there's that, that little extra person in our building, which is just our consumer, and we try to stay very close to them, metaphorically, that is, but metaphorically, that's the, That's the filter we use, and I think every company needs to do that. It doesn't really matter what company you're at. I can't think of any companies who shouldn't be taking that approach, but I think when you're launching, everything is accentuated, and every decision is going to be scrutinized, and it's the collection of all those decisions that really allows you to create that virality that what you're talking about, where, where a bunch of investors and …

AI assessment note: “Just one absolutely simple filter, which is make the absolute best experience for the customer”

Q How do you decide what to say yes to? How do you prioritize that?

A Just one absolutely simple filter, which is make the absolute best experience for the customer and absolutely everything else can fall away. You say, do you want to pop up screen on your, on your internet site that says get 10% off for, if you enter your email, you know what that message says to you. It says you're about to get spammed by my company. In exchange for 10% off, it cheapens the experience, so we, we said absolutely no to that. We said, do you want, um, to come out with 12 different products when you launch out of the gate, or do you want to just do one, and do one product really, really well, and create, and focus on the customer to make the best experience, and literally every decision we made was centered around that, and, you know, there's that, that little extra person in our building, which is just our consumer, and we try to stay very close to them, metaphorically, that is, but metaphorically, that's the, That's the filter we use, and I think every company needs to do that. It doesn't really matter what company you're at. I can't think of any companies who shouldn't be taking that approach, but I think when you're launching, everything is accentuated, and every decision is going to be scrutinized, and it's the collection of all those decisions that really allows you to create that virality that what you're talking about, where, where a bunch of investors and …

AI assessment note: “Just one absolutely simple filter, which is make the absolute best experience for the customer”

Q You can be CEO of any other company for a day. Which would you be CEO of?

A Interesting question. You should have sent me these in advance. Or maybe I should have just listened to your other podcast recently to know exactly what you would have asked me. I'd say one of the most interesting companies out there are the ones leading, um, the new large language models and AI technology like open AI. But I don't think I would want to bear that burden of responsibility for humanity. So I'll eliminate those. I'd say a company that, that is, um, done a really nice job in an area that I take a lot of inspiration from, would probably be Tesla. Which is around performance and quality of a product and an aesthetic and a beauty that delivers in and of itself. And the free gift with purchase is that it's much more sustainable for the planet. And that's kind of what I aspire for all birds. So that'd be a pretty fun one.

AI assessment note: “done a really nice job in an area that I take a lot of inspiration from, would probably be Tesla.”

Q At this market cap, are you not like, fuck it, Tim, let's take this private again?

A Nothing ideologically opposed, private or public. I think we have everything we need right now. The, the, the, Uh, to, to control our destiny and to do everything we believe we need to do to, um, build an incredible, incredible business and an incredible brand. If along that journey, uh, the, the public markets don't see the value that we're creating, and there's a big gap between the value that we are creating and, and what the enterprise value is of the company, then I think it's, it's prudent to consider all options. And, and we have a board that Does their duty quite responsibly to make sure we're thinking about all the options all the time. And, and when we see a huge gap between, between that for a very prolonged period of time, then it's, it's something that has to be considered.

AI assessment note: “Nothing ideologically opposed, private or public. I think we have everything we need right now.”

Q What do you think is the biggest difference between being public and being private, Joey?

A Everyone's seeing everything you're doing every single day. And, you know, businesses don't, uh, don't happen on quarterly cycles, but financial reporting and public markets do. And so, you know, you do have to face the reality that, uh, every single thing that you're doing from, from that point, when you become a public company into the future is exposed for all to see the good and the bad. That's a, a stark difference from when you're a private company, when, Uh, you can do, uh, you can make certain decisions that, that, um, have zero implication, uh, because you happen to be, uh, reporting at that specific quarter. And, and in this case it's not. And so in some ways the discipline is excellent. It forces you to have a cadence that is, um, driving urgency towards the business. And in some cases it could be a little bit in tension with the long-term build of the business, but we've tried to structure things in a way Um, both from a governance perspective and from a capitalization perspective that allow us to be, uh, really good stewards of any investor who, uh, has belief in the brand for the long-term and sees the potential of, of what we've created from the early days and now just need to execute on, on the business side to bring it, uh, bring this, bring those two things in convergence.

AI assessment note: “Everyone's seeing everything you're doing every single day.”

Q What would have allowed you to capitalize on it?

A Well, I mean, we, we didn't have an athletic positioning, um, at all at that time. And, you know, we were a hundred percent of a casual lifestyle shoe offering in 2019. Uh, we launched our first, I would call it like light active shoe in the Dasher in 2020, which was really fortunate because that w that did capture, um, some of the zeitgeist of what had happened. That's one really important element where, where that was just a moment where, You can look at the athletic sneaker market and it just absolutely surged during that, that time period. That's okay. We didn't need to be, um, a big part of that. And, and as I said, I think that the next five years are going to be shaped by something quite, quite distinct from that, which is, uh, exciting for me. The second element is, you know, we, we had, um, I remember in the series, a, uh, fundraising deck that we put together, we had this map of by year, Uh, w what channel we wanted to reach consumers through and which segments of the consumer population we would be reaching via those channels. And along the journey there, we expected that we would start to, uh, expand our product assortment and be able to put these products into the right, into the right channels and reach the right consumers with those, with that, with that connection point. That slide, as it said, was, you know, we would start with a digital ecosystem, Add stores s…

AI assessment note: “we didn't have an athletic positioning, um, at all at that time”

Q Got you. Okay. That makes sense. Cause on retail, it's a fucking beast. What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you started the retail strategy?

A Being a good retailer's heart, um, no doubt. And, uh, but I think we've, Proven that we can create a really wonderful retail experience. I would say some of the things that were difficult to see, you know, particularly sometimes you sign leases a year ahead of when you actually open up a store is the changing patterns of consumers, um, over the last two, three years. And it's not only, um, what they wanted to consume, but where they were buying things has changed really significantly in the wake of so much uncertainty. Um, You know, we, we, we had shaped some perspective around the fact that things would get back to the way they were. And I think they are getting back to the way they were. I actually think that's true. Just the time horizon that that's, um, that that's taking people to kind of regain a semblance of, of their former lives and some things are lost forever.

AI assessment note: “some of the things that were difficult to see... is the changing patterns of consumers”

Q I'd love, though, to start with a little about you and how an engineer turned to creating one of the coolest fashion and shoe startups with Allbirds. So what's the origin story?

A Yeah, it's, it's a bit odd. I was an engineer working in biotechs, which is not your, your natural transition into becoming a cobbler. So maybe I'll, maybe I'll wind back a little bit. I've been an engineer since, you know, I was 18, went to, went to college and studied it and always had my passion for things in the math, physics, and learn that realm. And left and for just a couple of years, tried to learn about business. I really had absolutely no idea what business was when I left college and had no business mentors growing up. So it was a quick look into just what business was. And I quickly found that what was my passion in life and what I would want to do with my career was to use the private sector, which has this great dynamism. You can just make up your own rules and reasonable bounds to a lot of very creative things. And what I wanted to use that private sector for was to positively affect the environment. And for various reasons in my upbringing, that was, that was kind of what I found my passion for. And so I joined a small venture capital firm at the time in San Francisco called industry ventures and started looking at clean tech deals as was the parlance of the time for private companies and technology striving to make a bunch of money off of renewable energy. So I started looking at those businesses and didn't really think that the venture capital model was, was …

AI assessment note: “I was an engineer working in biotechs, which is not your, your natural transition”

Q What's the next five years for you and for Allbirds? Let's finish on that. What's the roadmap ahead?

A I mean, Allbirds and me are inextricably linked. So the For me quickly, I would love to grow this brand to something that is very big, very global. And I think that's going to help us achieve what, what we're really setting out here to do, which is to take a leadership role in an industry that lacks any of it around sustainable manufacturing and hopefully creating a real new paradigm for how people produce consumer products. So how do we do that? How do we get to that big scale? I think, um, for us, we are extending the product line well beyond Wolf. We're developing a suite of material innovations that create uniquely differentiated experiences for customers that are just phenomenal shoes to slip your feet into. And we're doing that on the backs of highly renewable and highly sustainable materials innovations. So we view ourselves much more like an innovator than we do a shoe company or a fashion company, or we don't think we're ourselves really as a fashion company at all. And so it's, it's about broadening the portfolio of products that we have. And doing so on a platform basis that's really around natural materials.

AI assessment note: “we are extending the product line well beyond Wolf. We're developing a suite of material”

Q So you thought maybe product expansion or lack of was one mistake. Is that it?

A In some respects, but to answer your question directly, I think all of the success that we've had and all of the stumbles that we've had, it, it always comes back to people and, and the entrepreneurial journey as a leader, you know, we're a very small company and we've started eight, less than eight years ago. And along that journey, the balance of who you select, this balance of entrepreneurship and, uh, ambition And, and thinking that you can reshape a little bit of the world, the little segment that you exist in as a brand in a way that can, can match a future that's different than what we see today. That's an important element. There's also an incredibly important element around bringing in people with a sharp expertise around the functions and the industry expertise that's required to be excellent at all of the fundamentals. I often talk about, uh, with, with our leaders that what they bring in, Is deeply needed and deeply respected, but we need to think about it as a reference book, not a playbook. And what we're doing is slightly different. We have different contours of, of distribution than the rest of the industry. We have a different position positioning that's ever existed in, in the sneaker world. And so it needs to be a reference book. And sometimes we've gotten that right. Sometimes we've gotten that wrong in terms of, of the people that we've had and, and, um, th…

AI assessment note: “it always comes back to people”

Q What would have allowed you to capitalize on it?

A Well, I mean, we, we didn't have an athletic positioning, um, at all at that time. And, you know, we were a hundred percent of a casual lifestyle shoe offering in 2019. Uh, we launched our first, I would call it like light active shoe in the Dasher in 2020, which was really fortunate because that w that did capture, um, some of the zeitgeist of what had happened. That's one really important element where, where that was just a moment where, You can look at the athletic sneaker market and it just absolutely surged during that, that time period. That's okay. We didn't need to be, um, a big part of that. And, and as I said, I think that the next five years are going to be shaped by something quite, quite distinct from that, which is, uh, exciting for me. The second element is, you know, we, we had, um, I remember in the series, a, uh, fundraising deck that we put together, we had this map of by year, Uh, w what channel we wanted to reach consumers through and which segments of the consumer population we would be reaching via those channels. And along the journey there, we expected that we would start to, uh, expand our product assortment and be able to put these products into the right, into the right channels and reach the right consumers with those, with that, with that connection point. That slide, as it said, was, you know, we would start with a digital ecosystem, Add stores s…

AI assessment note: “we didn't have an athletic positioning, um, at all at that time.”

Q I'd love, though, to start with a little about you and how an engineer turned to creating one of the coolest fashion and shoe startups with Allbirds. So what's the origin story?

A Yeah, it's, it's a bit odd. I was an engineer working in biotechs, which is not your, your natural transition into becoming a cobbler. So maybe I'll, maybe I'll wind back a little bit. I've been an engineer since, you know, I was 18, went to, went to college and studied it and always had my passion for things in the math, physics, and learn that realm. And left and for just a couple of years, tried to learn about business. I really had absolutely no idea what business was when I left college and had no business mentors growing up. So it was a quick look into just what business was. And I quickly found that what was my passion in life and what I would want to do with my career was to use the private sector, which has this great dynamism. You can just make up your own rules and reasonable bounds to a lot of very creative things. And what I wanted to use that private sector for was to positively affect the environment. And for various reasons in my upbringing, that was, that was kind of what I found my passion for. And so I joined a small venture capital firm at the time in San Francisco called industry ventures and started looking at clean tech deals as was the parlance of the time for private companies and technology striving to make a bunch of money off of renewable energy. So I started looking at those businesses and didn't really think that the venture capital model was, was …

AI assessment note: “I was an engineer working in biotechs, which is not your, your natural transition”

Q How has how you deal with stress change? I remember some of my hardest times showed me the pits of how bad times can be and how I deal with stress today is I remember those to gain perspective as to how bad it could be.

A In the last two years I would say probably the biggest change has been, um, the reliance on the team that I work with a little bit, um, differently. Having a focus on Giving room for myself included to really express what people are thinking and what those anxieties are in a room very regularly, uh, with those people who are on the team is been not just cathartic, but also really helpful because some of those anxieties are grounded in, in reality. Like you should be anxious about this. Like there's something not going well. Like, why are you losing sleep about this? So I'd say that that's one element and the other stuff of Of, um, fitness and stuff like that that I need to do and hobbies on the side that I need to do just to keep myself saying, like, that's been pretty consistent.

AI assessment note: “In the last two years I would say probably the biggest change has been”

Q Well, you are far too kind, and Flattery will get you everywhere, by the way. Um, I, I wanna start with just the context, which is, you know, we see the incredible Allbirds brand today, What was the founding aha moment for you with Allbirds and you committing 10 years plus of your life to this business?

A I'll try to do justice to why Tim and I started this brand together, uh, in a really brief time, but we come from very different backgrounds. So Tim Brown's my co-founder. He was a professional athlete, but he happened to have a design background. He's from New Zealand. He became the captain of the New Zealand national soccer team all the way through the 2010 world cup. So obviously quite, quite good at his trade. And was sponsored by the big sportswear companies during that time. And, and, you know, just like most entrepreneurial journeys, it starts with, uh, with a moment where there's a problem out there that's not being solved for you individually. And he certainly had that and left wanting something. And it was around these gigantic logos on the side of his shoes. It was around the fact that the world had casualized and the footwear industry just really hadn't kept up with it. So he had this Really unique and intuitive sense for the consumer, for the industry and, and wanted to do something. He ended up throwing a Kickstarter up to like, get it out of his system, frankly. And that was in 2014. I was one of the first customers of that Kickstarter because our wives happen to be, uh, really close friends and were roommates in college. Uh, and as all good things happen in life, it's through the people who support you. Uh, and, and our wives are, are certainly, uh, no, uh, no e…

AI assessment note: “caught the itch to use entrepreneurship for the benefit of the environment”

Q I think honestly, dude, like I look back at some hard things that I've been through and they shaped me a lot. Um, that's why I look so much older than I am. I'm still actually 14. How have you changed as a leader over what is a tough time given market performance?

A Yeah. You know, the last couple of years have been, I probably got more growth and wisdom. In a short period of time than I've gotten the whole, uh, rest of my life. And a lot of that comes into leadership and, and, you know, victory has a thousand fathers and failure has only one. So, uh, as the saying goes, and, and so, you know, making sure that, um, there's a constant, uh, a constant self-awareness That there's discipline and the good times and the bad times that there's an even killed nature across that approach to leadership and that you're authentically trying to get the best out of everyone around you and, and making sure that the leaders that are coming along for the journey, uh, have that same dedication, resilience, and work ethic that you do. And also that same discipline to do things right, both when things are going great and when things are going not great. That is something where we hadn't been tested so much in terms of, um, when things weren't going great prior to this period. And, and we've pulled back on a bunch of investments in the business. And as a result, the sales have declined this year for the first time in the history of the company.

AI assessment note: “making sure that, um, there's a constant, uh, a constant self-awareness That there's discipline”

Q I'm not a cook. So, uh, I'm, I'm, uh, clearly they have some brand awareness to do, or maybe I just need to actually leave a room once in a while. Um, Joey, final one for you. 10 years time. It's 2033. Where are you then?

A What I think about most is, um, where, where Allbirds is going to be. Um, we wrote a vision in 2016 and we, we situated ourselves, uh, in the summer of 2026 when we wrote that vision. And, and frankly, we're marching right down that, um, right down that path. And, uh, I have a high degree of confidence that we're going to achieve everything that was written in the, in that vision at this point. So that's a pretty good start. So extending that by seven years, I think, look, the business has to be big. We've done a great job of aligning what our impact objectives are with our financial objectives. And what I mean is every time you buy a shoe, you're doing something fantastic for my business. And you're also doing something fantastic for the world. And if we can take that model and extend it and scale it very large, um, we're going to be really important, uh, within that importance and that cultural relevance will come, uh, great business success. And, and those two things are, are very mutually aligned and, uh, propel one another. And that alignment of our business model, uh, means that I want this brand to be enormous and I want it to capture the multi-generational opportunity that it, that it has. Um, as a result of, of an amazing, uh, team of people who, who worked really hard with sharp focus, uh, particularly in the early years of the business. And that's all I can think abo…

AI assessment note: “extending that by seven years, I think, look, the business has to be big.”