The Exchanges

Q Sanwal at CB Insights. And he said on the show, you mentioned kind of the growth rates there, pumping for the sale kind of quickly. He, Anand said that, uh, often VCs fall Foie gras startups essentially overfeed them to create kind of synthetical manufactured growth. Can I ask, seeing the ecosystem today, would you agree with this, and how do you think about kind of the current fundraising environment?

A Yeah, it's very interesting. I have to say, I definitely do agree with Anand, and a big fan of what he's doing as well, and yeah, I think that the really fascinating thing for me is the more I learned about the structure behind VCs, which is something that you don't always have a A full understanding of as a founder, the more I realized that really the way the VCs are set up generally is structured towards basically triggering an environment where it is almost better if they can pump up these startups, put a lot of money into them, and just kind of see what happens, see if it works, and 90% of the time it doesn't work, and that's where you end up with, to me, you do end up with this environment where it's a exit or IPO, or the alternative is that And they're being, there's the fire sales or, you know, they, they essentially get sold to another company. They'll most likely get shut down within a couple of years or something. And that to me is just generally is not great for customers, not great for the team. And it feels like a really big missed opportunity in the current investor kind of ecosystem right now. And we're starting to see some alternative forms of funds and accelerator programs and things that are actually structuring more to be aligned with founders where they might at Might want to get the company to profitability and sustainability and maybe, you know, those inve…

AI assessment note: “I definitely do agree with Anand”

Q want to start today on the theme of fundraising. Obviously, it includes in the title, and I'm sure people like me with the show do not help, but it seems today to almost be the very core of our industry itself, and when we chatted before, you said fundraising is a bigger decision than most people realize, so talk to me, Joel. What leads your thinking here in saying that?

A Yeah, there's a few different things for me that go into that, that I've Learned in my journey with Buffer, which is just over eight years now that I've been doing this, and we've raised two rounds of funding and had a lot of investing ups and downs with all of that. I think there's a couple of key things. One is that when you're fundraising, a lot of people don't realize that there's a point along the way in fundraising where you are no longer the boss anymore, and I think a lot of people start companies or become entrepreneurs because they really like having that And that autonomy and controlling their destiny in that way. And I think at some point along the way, maybe it's series A, series B, the board usually flips over to be controlled by investors. And I think that is something that I realized that founders often don't realize that is happening even in the moment that it's happening when they get that next round of funding and it has flipped over because they're still the CEO at that point and the investors likely believe in them and things. But It's when things get a bit tougher that could really change, and the fact that the tables have turned down a little bit could dramatically impact them. Another aspect is the concept of the cost of capital. It's something that I think in Silicon Valley a lot of people just aren't really thinking about. It's really this mentality of…

AI assessment note: “a lot of people don't realize that there's a point along the way”

Q Tell me, the final one, the next five years for you and for Buffer, what does that roadmap look like?

A Yeah, I see us being more diversified in our products and our revenue streams, more sustainable, and we need to become more differentiated in the market. It's become a little bit commoditized over time, and just continue to grow at a solid clip while being profitable. That's something that we're committed to now, and then I think over time, we'll, we'll be able to create this situation where everyone in the company can really benefit from From the great work that we're doing together. So I think that'll lead to the possibility of dividends and increasing the profit share. We've been doing profit sharing for two years in a row now, and we want to keep going more in those directions and helping investors get liquidity when they're more interested in kind of a short-term horizon so that we can become more self-owned over time and really keep control of our destiny so we can keep experimenting and seeing where that takes us.

AI assessment note: “I see us being more diversified in our products and our revenue streams, more sustainable”

Q honesty there. We don't always get it on the show, um, but, um, you obviously maintain the role, but your co-founders did leave over time, and you wrote that you now had to manage the leadership team alone. Can I ask, how was that for you as a process, and what do you know now that you maybe wish you had known at the start of this management alone process?

A I'd say that was, that has been one of the more challenging things for me, going from having a very strong co-founder and having this Almost peer relationship with him, with, with Leo, to then adjusting to being almost a solo founder since that point , it's a very different situation. I think the biggest thing I've learned is that you do need that person or people that you can brainstorm with and pair with and work through decisions and challenges that are more on that peer level. And for me, it's been this large focus on building up my network I think I'm still in that process. It's two years on right now from when Leo left, and so I'm still figuring that out and working through it, and I think one of the things that I, I guess if I, what do I wish I'd known? I wish I'd known that this would have been this kind of immediate change and challenge. I think in some ways, maybe the mistake I made was to start to almost, Lean too much on the leadership team for things that doesn't necessarily make sense for, for that, for me to be bouncing around and back and forth with them, and I think something that I'm looking to put in place going forward is to find a great CEO coach that I can work with, an executive coach, and I think that's something that probably could have done earlier, another way to fill that void.

AI assessment note: “I wish I'd known that this would have been this kind of immediate change”

Q have to ask, like we said about the responsibility of being a leader there, when you've written before, you have stated that maybe at a time there was an element where some were suggesting kind of rescinding from the role of CEO, always incredibly hard. So can I ask Joel, and I hope it's not too personal, how does one respond to that, and how did you deal with that?

A Yeah, it's, I mean, I, I think it, it was one of the toughest things to hear from me, and, you know, I guess initially in the moment, there's that level of shock, and there's just thinking through, okay, what do I even say to, to that, but for me, that question came from an investor at the point when we were talking about potentially buying them out, and generally, I think it was clear that, You know, we had different paths that we were excited about for the company, and the question came kind of related to if I can't get the company to a place where we can buy out the investor, you know, to build up the capital to buy out that investor, then will I be comfortable to step down? And it was a tough question because this investor is not on the board. They didn't really have that. We'd not set ourselves up that that was something that, you know, I like the idea that we We should go in with our eyes open, and if we'd raised a round of funding where the investors controlled the board and where the goal was this, clearly this exit or something, then I could have understand that a little bit more, but that wasn't the case here. And then I think overall, stepping away from that, the immediate thoughts and around that and reaction to it, I realized that really where that came from, this place of having quite a clear misalignment on what Is the goal here? You know, where do we want this c…

AI assessment note: “once I realized that we were so on very different pages, it almost brought a level of comfort”

Q I mean, so many things for me to unpack there. The first, kind of taking it in turn, you mentioned that moment where you maybe don't feel like your own boss. Personally, when was that moment for you, do you think?

A Well, I've been lucky because I've managed to retain that, but it's not come without difficulty. About nine months ago, or maybe 10 months ago now, we bought out our main VC investor. But there was a moment in the year, two years, Leading up to that, that I started to feel that the investor would have liked it to be the case that I wasn't the boss anymore, and that they could take over. And, you know, I had several different shareholders that were, that would have much preferred to just drive the company to a sale pretty quickly. And that personally wasn't, you know, really the goal for me. And I saw much more growth ahead and much more interesting parts of the journey ahead. So I've been lucky that We raised two rounds of funding in the journey. One was a seed round in 20 11, and then a series A in 2014. But we already kind of knew when we raised those rounds that we wanted to keep that control and be able to continue to experiment a lot. We've done a lot of experiments around our culture with remote working and the level of transparency we try and hit. And those are things that the more we raise traditional round and bring on investors on our board, the more likely it's going to be harder to Keep questioning things and experimenting in that way. So both rounds, we didn't bring any investors on the board. So that's one thing that ultimately helped us a lot.

AI assessment note: “there was a moment in the year, two years, Leading up to that”

Q Listen there, every Sunday evening I sit on Buffer for three hours, so uh, thanks for that. But I do want to switch tabs a little bit here. By discussing you yourself, the founder, when we chatted before, you said founders must align their company to what lights them up. What did you mean by this kind of what lights you up, and when did you realize you had it?

A I believe, for me, I've, I've had it and lost it multiple times, and it just feels like this cycle that I've settled into in a way, which is Just trying to, every once in a while, maybe it's once a year or a couple of years to really try and deeply think how are you feeling about this journey that you're on? Is it still lighting you up? And I think for me, the easiest way to think about it is like, are you still jumping out of bed in the morning to work on this thing? Are you excited about the people you're working with, the focus, the mission you have, or the success you're having, those kinds of things. And there's been a few points along the way where One of the interesting things as an exercise is to kind of map out the trajectory that you feel like you're on in terms of what is the company going to look like along this path two to three years from now. And I've done that a couple of times in the journey and actually had moments where I felt, oh, actually the path we're on right now, mapping that out two to three years further ahead. It seems like it's going in a direction that I will no longer be jumping out of bed and be excited about this thing. And so I think I, those have been moments where I've had to really think, okay, what do I want to change? Maybe have some tough conversations, talk about what are the goals we have, talk about the growth rate we're hitting, talk …

AI assessment note: “are you still jumping out of bed in the morning to work on this thing?”

Q I love that one. I saw it in your email subject line and thought it was brilliant. I do want to ask, what moment in your life has served as an inflection point and changed the way you think?

A I struggle to think of one single one, so I'm gonna just quickly share a few. There's been, there's been many. I think when I was 15 years old, I sold my first, I got my first website development project for a commercial client. That was an inflection point for me of realizing I could make money from something that I previously thought was a hobby. In college, I had the inflection point of shifting from service revenue to product revenue and escaping that hourly kind of wage. And then in the last few years, there's been a big inflection point that we've, we've talked about of this sustainability mentality for the company of, can we create a company that we never want to sell and create a company that can keep going for 2030 years more versus this kind of

AI assessment note: “I struggle to think of one single one, so I'm gonna just quickly share a few”

Q Sanwal at CB Insights. And he said on the show, you mentioned kind of the growth rates there, pumping for the sale kind of quickly. He, Anand said that, uh, often VCs fall Foie gras startups essentially overfeed them to create kind of synthetical manufactured growth. Can I ask, seeing the ecosystem today, would you agree with this, and how do you think about kind of the current fundraising environment?

A Yeah, it's very interesting. I have to say, I definitely do agree with Anand, and a big fan of what he's doing as well, and yeah, I think that the really fascinating thing for me is the more I learned about the structure behind VCs, which is something that you don't always have a A full understanding of as a founder, the more I realized that really the way the VCs are set up generally is structured towards basically triggering an environment where it is almost better if they can pump up these startups, put a lot of money into them, and just kind of see what happens, see if it works, and 90% of the time it doesn't work, and that's where you end up with, to me, you do end up with this environment where it's a exit or IPO, or the alternative is that And they're being, there's the fire sales or, you know, they, they essentially get sold to another company. They'll most likely get shut down within a couple of years or something. And that to me is just generally is not great for customers, not great for the team. And it feels like a really big missed opportunity in the current investor kind of ecosystem right now. And we're starting to see some alternative forms of funds and accelerator programs and things that are actually structuring more to be aligned with founders where they might at Might want to get the company to profitability and sustainability and maybe, you know, those inve…

AI assessment note: “I have to say, I definitely do agree with Anand”

Q of the need for more financing methods. Speaking of which, we, we have seen the likes of Bryce at Indie VC, and I want to discuss kind of when you made the switch of track from VC to sustainable company, you've written about the trade-off between increasing margin and profit, and the subsequent maybe declining growth. How do you think about trade-off there, and what was the thought process here?

A Yeah, it's very interesting. I think for me personally, as a founder, I'm quite Idealistic. I think a lot of founders are. So I don't like to believe that there is a strong connection there between the funding you have and the growth rates you can hit. But overall, I think looking back and seeing the results of things, I realized there has been somewhat of that correlation for us. But that said, I think there's been many examples of times when we've, you know, maybe invested more, grown the team faster, and it's not translated to growth. So I don't think those things are mutually exclusive. And then I guess the other part of it is that the profitability, which is something that has been interesting for us because the point when we decided to focus on profitability within a couple of years, we went from either losses each year or just a 100,000 in profit around those kinds of numbers to 2,000,003 million in profit in the last couple of years, respectively. At the same time, our growth rate has dropped in that time as well. And then now I think we're It feels like one of those things where the longer you you're running, the more you figure out what are those dials that you can turn and where do you, how do you want to kind of calibrate your company based on those different goals? And I think for us, we want to maintain our profitability. We want to grow a little faster. And that'…

AI assessment note: “when we decided to focus on profitability... our growth rate has dropped in that time”

Q want to start today on the theme of fundraising. Obviously, it includes in the title, and I'm sure people like me with the show do not help, but it seems today to almost be the very core of our industry itself, and when we chatted before, you said fundraising is a bigger decision than most people realize, so talk to me, Joel. What leads your thinking here in saying that?

A Yeah, there's a few different things for me that go into that, that I've Learned in my journey with Buffer, which is just over eight years now that I've been doing this, and we've raised two rounds of funding and had a lot of investing ups and downs with all of that. I think there's a couple of key things. One is that when you're fundraising, a lot of people don't realize that there's a point along the way in fundraising where you are no longer the boss anymore, and I think a lot of people start companies or become entrepreneurs because they really like having that And that autonomy and controlling their destiny in that way. And I think at some point along the way, maybe it's series A, series B, the board usually flips over to be controlled by investors. And I think that is something that I realized that founders often don't realize that is happening even in the moment that it's happening when they get that next round of funding and it has flipped over because they're still the CEO at that point and the investors likely believe in them and things. But It's when things get a bit tougher that could really change, and the fact that the tables have turned down a little bit could dramatically impact them. Another aspect is the concept of the cost of capital. It's something that I think in Silicon Valley a lot of people just aren't really thinking about. It's really this mentality of…

AI assessment note: “there's a point along the way in fundraising where you are no longer the boss”

Q I mean, so many things for me to unpack there. The first, kind of taking it in turn, you mentioned that moment where you maybe don't feel like your own boss. Personally, when was that moment for you, do you think?

A Well, I've been lucky because I've managed to retain that, but it's not come without difficulty. About nine months ago, or maybe 10 months ago now, we bought out our main VC investor. But there was a moment in the year, two years, Leading up to that, that I started to feel that the investor would have liked it to be the case that I wasn't the boss anymore, and that they could take over. And, you know, I had several different shareholders that were, that would have much preferred to just drive the company to a sale pretty quickly. And that personally wasn't, you know, really the goal for me. And I saw much more growth ahead and much more interesting parts of the journey ahead. So I've been lucky that We raised two rounds of funding in the journey. One was a seed round in 20 11, and then a series A in 2014. But we already kind of knew when we raised those rounds that we wanted to keep that control and be able to continue to experiment a lot. We've done a lot of experiments around our culture with remote working and the level of transparency we try and hit. And those are things that the more we raise traditional round and bring on investors on our board, the more likely it's going to be harder to Keep questioning things and experimenting in that way. So both rounds, we didn't bring any investors on the board. So that's one thing that ultimately helped us a lot.

AI assessment note: “there was a moment in the year, two years, Leading up to that”

Q Listen there, every Sunday evening I sit on Buffer for three hours, so uh, thanks for that. But I do want to switch tabs a little bit here. By discussing you yourself, the founder, when we chatted before, you said founders must align their company to what lights them up. What did you mean by this kind of what lights you up, and when did you realize you had it?

A I believe, for me, I've, I've had it and lost it multiple times, and it just feels like this cycle that I've settled into in a way, which is Just trying to, every once in a while, maybe it's once a year or a couple of years to really try and deeply think how are you feeling about this journey that you're on? Is it still lighting you up? And I think for me, the easiest way to think about it is like, are you still jumping out of bed in the morning to work on this thing? Are you excited about the people you're working with, the focus, the mission you have, or the success you're having, those kinds of things. And there's been a few points along the way where One of the interesting things as an exercise is to kind of map out the trajectory that you feel like you're on in terms of what is the company going to look like along this path two to three years from now. And I've done that a couple of times in the journey and actually had moments where I felt, oh, actually the path we're on right now, mapping that out two to three years further ahead. It seems like it's going in a direction that I will no longer be jumping out of bed and be excited about this thing. And so I think I, those have been moments where I've had to really think, okay, what do I want to change? Maybe have some tough conversations, talk about what are the goals we have, talk about the growth rate we're hitting, talk …

AI assessment note: “are you still jumping out of bed in the morning to work on this thing?”

Q have to ask, like we said about the responsibility of being a leader there, when you've written before, you have stated that maybe at a time there was an element where some were suggesting kind of rescinding from the role of CEO, always incredibly hard. So can I ask Joel, and I hope it's not too personal, how does one respond to that, and how did you deal with that?

A Yeah, it's, I mean, I, I think it, it was one of the toughest things to hear from me, and, you know, I guess initially in the moment, there's that level of shock, and there's just thinking through, okay, what do I even say to, to that, but for me, that question came from an investor at the point when we were talking about potentially buying them out, and generally, I think it was clear that, You know, we had different paths that we were excited about for the company, and the question came kind of related to if I can't get the company to a place where we can buy out the investor, you know, to build up the capital to buy out that investor, then will I be comfortable to step down? And it was a tough question because this investor is not on the board. They didn't really have that. We'd not set ourselves up that that was something that, you know, I like the idea that we We should go in with our eyes open, and if we'd raised a round of funding where the investors controlled the board and where the goal was this, clearly this exit or something, then I could have understand that a little bit more, but that wasn't the case here. And then I think overall, stepping away from that, the immediate thoughts and around that and reaction to it, I realized that really where that came from, this place of having quite a clear misalignment on what Is the goal here? You know, where do we want this c…

AI assessment note: “initially in the moment, there's that level of shock”

Q of the need for more financing methods. Speaking of which, we, we have seen the likes of Bryce at Indie VC, and I want to discuss kind of when you made the switch of track from VC to sustainable company, you've written about the trade-off between increasing margin and profit, and the subsequent maybe declining growth. How do you think about trade-off there, and what was the thought process here?

A Yeah, it's very interesting. I think for me personally, as a founder, I'm quite Idealistic. I think a lot of founders are. So I don't like to believe that there is a strong connection there between the funding you have and the growth rates you can hit. But overall, I think looking back and seeing the results of things, I realized there has been somewhat of that correlation for us. But that said, I think there's been many examples of times when we've, you know, maybe invested more, grown the team faster, and it's not translated to growth. So I don't think those things are mutually exclusive. And then I guess the other part of it is that the profitability, which is something that has been interesting for us because the point when we decided to focus on profitability within a couple of years, we went from either losses each year or just a 100,000 in profit around those kinds of numbers to 2,000,003 million in profit in the last couple of years, respectively. At the same time, our growth rate has dropped in that time as well. And then now I think we're It feels like one of those things where the longer you you're running, the more you figure out what are those dials that you can turn and where do you, how do you want to kind of calibrate your company based on those different goals? And I think for us, we want to maintain our profitability. We want to grow a little faster. And that'…

AI assessment note: “At the same time, our growth rate has dropped in that time as well.”

Q cold British heart cry, then, uh, clearly he's done. I do want to finish, though, today, Joel, by discussing a little bit about the Because when we chatted before, you said about the element of transparency, and the element that really struck me was, it's always better to lean into transparency. Can I ask, what did you mean by this, and maybe are there any limitations to leaning into transparency?

A Yeah, when I think about leaning into transparency, I mean, really just challenging yourself with, can you share more with your team? Can you be more open with them about what the goals are, and about the numbers, the revenue numbers, how much cash is in the bank, the real state of the business, the The growth rates, the way the market's changing, just being open, laying it all out there. And I think I believe that that is always a better state to strive for. It is a hard thing. I think it almost goes maybe against human nature in a way. I think we like to hold our cards close to our chest sometimes and things. So I think that's where it is, this thing that you have to push yourself through and be disciplined about. And I think one of the things that for me An additional component of it that I've realized is as a founder or founders, you often have so much on your shoulders. It's such a pressurized situation to be in. And I found by sharing, especially in the tough times, sharing more openly with the team, they really are excited to help figure it out together. And I think sometimes as leaders, we almost treat our team as children or something, you know, that they can't handle those details or that truth Or something. And I think that's just really a disservice to everyone that you've brought on board. Like everyone is adults. They're figuring out these tough decisions in their…

AI assessment note: “challenging yourself with, can you share more with your team?”

Q is a really hard question to ask, it's almost a luxury, though, to have the flexibility to change kind of what lights you up, because when you have a company with many employees like Buffer does, or, you know, a founder listening to the show with many employees, you're responsible for a lot of people and for household incomes. Does one have the luxury to change what lights them up?

A Yeah, I think it's a great question, and something I think a lot about. I think you almost have diminishing luxury to do that as time goes on, but I think for us, for Buffer, and for me, one of the ways I've managed to retain that optionality is by being profitable. You know, we can take a bigger bet. We could swing a different way, and I think for me, the closer we are to running along right on the wire of any small market change could just cause us to really be in a tough Financial situation. Maybe you have to do layoffs or that kind of thing. That's a situation I just don't want to be in because I want to be able to take these bets, try these new things, maybe even at times shift into a whole different market. Or for me, like the dream over time is that we will be able to have enough profitability and flexibility within the company that someone could have a new idea for a new product or something and really pursue that. So we can all I like to think if Buffer can be this vehicle for what lights all of us up in the company, and we can keep pursuing kind of what lights us up, that is an exciting kind of vision for the company, and thinking about the company more as this overall group of, you know, where we will do new things and try new things, rather than being so set on a specific vision or path or market the way in and really being, trying to grow absolutely as fast as poss…

AI assessment note: “one of the ways I've managed to retain that optionality is by being profitable.”

Q is a really hard question to ask, it's almost a luxury, though, to have the flexibility to change kind of what lights you up, because when you have a company with many employees like Buffer does, or, you know, a founder listening to the show with many employees, you're responsible for a lot of people and for household incomes. Does one have the luxury to change what lights them up?

A Yeah, I think it's a great question, and something I think a lot about. I think you almost have diminishing luxury to do that as time goes on, but I think for us, for Buffer, and for me, one of the ways I've managed to retain that optionality is by being profitable. You know, we can take a bigger bet. We could swing a different way, and I think for me, the closer we are to running along right on the wire of any small market change could just cause us to really be in a tough Financial situation. Maybe you have to do layoffs or that kind of thing. That's a situation I just don't want to be in because I want to be able to take these bets, try these new things, maybe even at times shift into a whole different market. Or for me, like the dream over time is that we will be able to have enough profitability and flexibility within the company that someone could have a new idea for a new product or something and really pursue that. So we can all I like to think if Buffer can be this vehicle for what lights all of us up in the company, and we can keep pursuing kind of what lights us up, that is an exciting kind of vision for the company, and thinking about the company more as this overall group of, you know, where we will do new things and try new things, rather than being so set on a specific vision or path or market the way in and really being, trying to grow absolutely as fast as poss…

AI assessment note: “you almost have diminishing luxury to do that as time goes on, but... by being profitable.”

Q cold British heart cry, then, uh, clearly he's done. I do want to finish, though, today, Joel, by discussing a little bit about the Because when we chatted before, you said about the element of transparency, and the element that really struck me was, it's always better to lean into transparency. Can I ask, what did you mean by this, and maybe are there any limitations to leaning into transparency?

A Yeah, when I think about leaning into transparency, I mean, really just challenging yourself with, can you share more with your team? Can you be more open with them about what the goals are, and about the numbers, the revenue numbers, how much cash is in the bank, the real state of the business, the The growth rates, the way the market's changing, just being open, laying it all out there. And I think I believe that that is always a better state to strive for. It is a hard thing. I think it almost goes maybe against human nature in a way. I think we like to hold our cards close to our chest sometimes and things. So I think that's where it is, this thing that you have to push yourself through and be disciplined about. And I think one of the things that for me An additional component of it that I've realized is as a founder or founders, you often have so much on your shoulders. It's such a pressurized situation to be in. And I found by sharing, especially in the tough times, sharing more openly with the team, they really are excited to help figure it out together. And I think sometimes as leaders, we almost treat our team as children or something, you know, that they can't handle those details or that truth Or something. And I think that's just really a disservice to everyone that you've brought on board. Like everyone is adults. They're figuring out these tough decisions in their…

AI assessment note: “when I think about leaning into transparency, I mean, really just challenging yourself”

Q Can I ask, what do you wish founders knew about VC structure? Obviously, as a VC kind of knowing the structure, we almost take the knowledge of the structure for granted, maybe almost. What do you wish that kind of founders were aware of in terms of maybe the mechanics and structure of venture as an asset class?

A It's a good question. I wish that investors were more frank With founders enjoying the process, because it is this process of both sides kind of trying to woo each other, especially if startup has traction and things. Um, but it seems like something where some things are maybe left unspoken, but they seem clear or, you know, there's a lot of articles written about, but I think just that maybe getting really, really aligned on expectations is something that could be better. But honestly, I think some of that's going to be really hard unless there's more alternatives where there really should be this spectrum of different models of Of types of funding you could raise to help you accelerate your company, but not do it on a, you know, I think for the longest time, the only option has been VC. And then the only option is that you lock yourself into this white knuckle ride rollercoaster and that the outcome has to be this a hundred percent year over year growth for the longest time. And I think there needs to be other forms of funding that don't require quite that same level of growth or return over time. For it to be even possible to have those fun conversations, because right now, founders kind of has this thought, oh, actually some funding will be useful, and then they start looking at the options, and it's all just VC and the angel investors and things that really have that same …

AI assessment note: “lock yourself into this white knuckle ride rollercoaster and that the outcome has to be”

Q Can I ask, what do you wish founders knew about VC structure? Obviously, as a VC kind of knowing the structure, we almost take the knowledge of the structure for granted, maybe almost. What do you wish that kind of founders were aware of in terms of maybe the mechanics and structure of venture as an asset class?

A It's a good question. I wish that investors were more frank With founders enjoying the process, because it is this process of both sides kind of trying to woo each other, especially if startup has traction and things. Um, but it seems like something where some things are maybe left unspoken, but they seem clear or, you know, there's a lot of articles written about, but I think just that maybe getting really, really aligned on expectations is something that could be better. But honestly, I think some of that's going to be really hard unless there's more alternatives where there really should be this spectrum of different models of Of types of funding you could raise to help you accelerate your company, but not do it on a, you know, I think for the longest time, the only option has been VC. And then the only option is that you lock yourself into this white knuckle ride rollercoaster and that the outcome has to be this a hundred percent year over year growth for the longest time. And I think there needs to be other forms of funding that don't require quite that same level of growth or return over time. For it to be even possible to have those fun conversations, because right now, founders kind of has this thought, oh, actually some funding will be useful, and then they start looking at the options, and it's all just VC and the angel investors and things that really have that same …

AI assessment note: “I think there needs to be other forms of funding that don't require”