The Exchanges

Q And you grew Shift to a powerhouse of the industry in a really a short number of years. How did you go about attaining your first clients then? I mean, it's often the hardest step getting the first clients.

A Yeah. So we were, uh, making a lot of phone calls. Um, you know, at the time we had, uh, we didn't have any funding. Um, we had, um, you know, basically a beta product. Um, and the kind of interesting thing about how shift got started, you know, ended up becoming a social ads business. Uh, but originally there weren't even social ads yet. So what we were doing is we built, uh, ad technology to go inside Facebook applications, uh, So when you're playing games on Facebook, we were actually serving ads there because you couldn't programmatically serve ads directly on Facebook yet. And so we were calling brands like Microsoft and, um, you know, original clients like Jamba Juice, companies like that, saying, listen, we can go ahead and help you advertise within this Facebook ecosystem in a programmatic way. Um, the alternative is, you know, no targeting, things like that. Um, and we had to really explain to them why they should advertise on social, you know, kind of fast forward to today, you know, it's kind of funny how, how little convincing you have to do about why advertising on Facebook makes sense. Uh, but back then we, we not only had to convince them to work with us, but we had to convince them to move budget from other places to social. Um, so I think when you're entering in a new market, you know, the hardest aspects of our, of it is the fact that it's a new market.

AI assessment note: “we were making a lot of phone calls... calling brands like Microsoft”

Q And. Then we now have to talk a bit about the acquisition. It is obviously a, an important moment for the, for the, uh, shift platforms kind of evolution. So, fifty million to brand networks, an amazing achievement, and again, congratulations. But what were your reasons for selling? I mean, was there any conflict in your mind?

A No, you know, I think, you know, we had, uh, we'd been approached by the brand networks team, uh, and as we learned more about them, uh, it became just a really, really, uh, I don't want to say obvious, but, uh, it made a lot of sense for a couple reasons. Um, you know, one is, you know, the way that they've performed over the years has been pretty impressive. They raised, you know, one round of funding. It was a You know, six billion dollar private equity fund. Um, you know, in our space, you know, they've, they've just done a phenomenal job on that front. They've also built just some incredible clients, uh, as well. And the other thing that I loved about it is that they actually had focused a lot on, uh, the content side. Um, so that's sort of the organic side of social, where we had really been incredibly strong on the paid side. And the opportunity to join forces and really create this truly holistic platform Uh, has always been our goal, and so, uh, it made it just, uh, it made it really exciting from a pure product standpoint, which is where, kind of, a lot of times, like, where my, kind of, perspective lies. Um, you know, the other part is the team is just awesome. Um, you know, the, the president over there, a guy named Paul Falzoni, has become a great friend and a great mentor. Um, they have phenomenal engineering team, uh, and, you know, they have offices across the w…

AI assessment note: “it became just a really, really, uh, I don't want to say obvious, but, uh, it made a lot of sense”

Q And we always hear, though, that great founders should focus. What tips would you give then for founders out there in terms of focusing on all the kind of items you just mentioned, fundraising, HR, hiring, and not getting trapped by the kind of mundanity of everyday organization?

A Yeah, hire well. Um, I think that's the key. So I, I was able to be a much, much better CEO as I surrounded myself with better people. Um, and I think that's, you know, depending on the size of the company, um, you know, we brought in a CFO, a woman named Andrea Green, um, a couple years ago who just totally changed the company, uh, in terms of helping us understand, you know, really how the business was performing and, and the decisions we had to make. You know, I think that's a hire that people often, uh, Uh, put off, because they may know someone who kind of understands finance. You know, I would invest early on that side. Um, and then I think, uh, if you're a product-focused, uh, CEO, still hire a head of product. Um, our VP of product has been phenomenal over the years, and he's really been able to help me. You know, I think, again, you just have to find, be honest with yourself, find the places you're not good, and tell someone, you know, tell your co-founder or tell your board, um, And get them on board with helping you find someone who can fill the gaps.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, hire well. Um, I think that's the key.”

Q And you grew Shift to a powerhouse of the industry in a really a short number of years. How did you go about attaining your first clients then? I mean, it's often the hardest step getting the first clients.

A Yeah. So we were, uh, making a lot of phone calls. Um, you know, at the time we had, uh, we didn't have any funding. Um, we had, um, you know, basically a beta product. Um, and the kind of interesting thing about how shift got started, you know, ended up becoming a social ads business. Uh, but originally there weren't even social ads yet. So what we were doing is we built, uh, ad technology to go inside Facebook applications, uh, So when you're playing games on Facebook, we were actually serving ads there because you couldn't programmatically serve ads directly on Facebook yet. And so we were calling brands like Microsoft and, um, you know, original clients like Jamba Juice, companies like that, saying, listen, we can go ahead and help you advertise within this Facebook ecosystem in a programmatic way. Um, the alternative is, you know, no targeting, things like that. Um, and we had to really explain to them why they should advertise on social, you know, kind of fast forward to today, you know, it's kind of funny how, how little convincing you have to do about why advertising on Facebook makes sense. Uh, but back then we, we not only had to convince them to work with us, but we had to convince them to move budget from other places to social. Um, so I think when you're entering in a new market, you know, the hardest aspects of our, of it is the fact that it's a new market.

AI assessment note: “we were, uh, making a lot of phone calls... calling brands like Microsoft”

Q And we always hear, though, that great founders should focus. What tips would you give then for founders out there in terms of focusing on all the kind of items you just mentioned, fundraising, HR, hiring, and not getting trapped by the kind of mundanity of everyday organization?

A Yeah, hire well. Um, I think that's the key. So I, I was able to be a much, much better CEO as I surrounded myself with better people. Um, and I think that's, you know, depending on the size of the company, um, you know, we brought in a CFO, a woman named Andrea Green, um, a couple years ago who just totally changed the company, uh, in terms of helping us understand, you know, really how the business was performing and, and the decisions we had to make. You know, I think that's a hire that people often, uh, Uh, put off, because they may know someone who kind of understands finance. You know, I would invest early on that side. Um, and then I think, uh, if you're a product-focused, uh, CEO, still hire a head of product. Um, our VP of product has been phenomenal over the years, and he's really been able to help me. You know, I think, again, you just have to find, be honest with yourself, find the places you're not good, and tell someone, you know, tell your co-founder or tell your board, um, And get them on board with helping you find someone who can fill the gaps.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, hire well. Um, I think that's the key.”

Q And. Then we now have to talk a bit about the acquisition. It is obviously a, an important moment for the, for the, uh, shift platforms kind of evolution. So, fifty million to brand networks, an amazing achievement, and again, congratulations. But what were your reasons for selling? I mean, was there any conflict in your mind?

A No, you know, I think, you know, we had, uh, we'd been approached by the brand networks team, uh, and as we learned more about them, uh, it became just a really, really, uh, I don't want to say obvious, but, uh, it made a lot of sense for a couple reasons. Um, you know, one is, you know, the way that they've performed over the years has been pretty impressive. They raised, you know, one round of funding. It was a You know, six billion dollar private equity fund. Um, you know, in our space, you know, they've, they've just done a phenomenal job on that front. They've also built just some incredible clients, uh, as well. And the other thing that I loved about it is that they actually had focused a lot on, uh, the content side. Um, so that's sort of the organic side of social, where we had really been incredibly strong on the paid side. And the opportunity to join forces and really create this truly holistic platform Uh, has always been our goal, and so, uh, it made it just, uh, it made it really exciting from a pure product standpoint, which is where, kind of, a lot of times, like, where my, kind of, perspective lies. Um, you know, the other part is the team is just awesome. Um, you know, the, the president over there, a guy named Paul Falzoni, has become a great friend and a great mentor. Um, they have phenomenal engineering team, uh, and, you know, they have offices across the w…

AI assessment note: “opportunity to join forces and really create this truly holistic platform”

Q So would you say that it's very important for young startup founders and employees to have a mentor to guide them through the process?

A Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, without a doubt. I have a ton of really just incredible advisors, um, you know, And friends, not to mention an incredible co-founder in Clark, um, but there's absolutely no reason to reinvent the wheel on a lot of this stuff, and, you know, everyone's smart, you know, in terms of their own ability to learn these things, but you're gonna waste a couple years trying to learn it, and so, you know, I would not be, uh, I would not be shy in asking questions. There's no ego in this at all, in terms of yourself. Like, the, the ego should be around, uh, Making the company successful and making sure that your employees and investors do well. Um, so I think, you know, finding advisors, um, finding great co-founders, um, not being short-sighted with things like equity. Uh, you know, I think those are all key things to it that, uh, I would just, you know, I couldn't encourage people more to really think about.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, without a doubt.”

Q And you, you mentioned there, obviously Facebook and, and then Twitter were also marketing platform partners with shift and LinkedIn certified marketing partners. So what was it like working with these tech titans? I mean, we often hear about that kind of, Uh, company culture being very slow to move and adapt. Did you find that when you worked with them?

A No, not at all. I mean, I think, you know, we were fortunate in that, um, for Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Pinterest, Instagram, pretty much every single social network ever launched, we've been a launch partner with them. And the great thing about that has been twofold. One is, you know, they're creating these new ecosystems, uh, you know, along with us. So in a lot of ways, we feel like we're having a really big impact and helping them figure out where this all goes. Um, Uh, and the other thing is we've been in social for, you know, relatively speaking a long time, um, as long as a lot of these people have. Uh, and so a lot of ways we feel like they're our peers, and we've sort of grown up with them in this space, and so it's been, it's been really fun. We've seen a lot of people kind of grow to really interesting positions at these companies. Um, the partners themselves just couldn't have been more supportive to us over the years, and, you know, unlike, Kind of traditional big companies. These guys move really fast. You know, when they decide they want to do something, they do it. Uh, and they, they tend to be pretty successful in doing it, so it's been fascinating just working with them.

AI assessment note: “No, not at all... These guys move really fast.”

Q And as shifts scaled, how did you deal with the scaling process of kind of increasing hires and increasing budgets? Was it tough for you to adjust to?

A Yeah, it was, uh, it was definitely a process. Um, I had just some phenomenal advisors, uh, and, uh, And, you know, employees, uh, along the way, um, you know, we had, you know, in the early days, and I think this is still a healthy way to think about it, but I was, you know, I was almost scared of, uh, I was scared of spending money, and I was scared of growing headcount. Um, and, you know, I had, uh, an advisor who was a president of ours for a period of time, a guy named Stefano Kim, uh, who's a great operator, um, one of the best sort of operators I've ever met, uh, you know, sat me down and explained to me that, uh, That you need to invest to grow, and, uh, you need to make bets, uh, if you really kind of believe in what you're doing, and it was a hugely kind of important perspective for me to gain. Um, you know, at the time, I was like, 26, and you just, you didn't want to, you didn't want to burn for the sake of burn, and, and I think that's still a healthy way to think, but at the same time, there are times where you do need to burn if you want to, uh, invest in things that make sense for you the long term. Uh, so it was definitely an interesting, uh, transition to go through, uh, And still kind of, I think, takes a healthy balance. You can't sort of buy your own BS and chase the shiny object, and you can't go ahead and think there's always going to be funding, but if t…

AI assessment note: “I was scared of spending money, and I was scared of growing headcount.”

Q And what do you say there when you say short-sighted by equity? Do you mean being too, uh, possessive over it?

A Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that so many people start, you know, especially in the early days, they start sort of chasing the shiny object, thinking about what their equity could represent, and equity is obviously incredibly important, but I think that you want people to feel like they're owners in the company, and you want even advisors to have the skin in the game, and so I just think, you know, if you want people to, if you want people to have a similar perspective to you, as you do, then I think you really kind of have to help Everyone, uh, be incentivized to do that. Uh, and for us, it was, it was great. You know, we, we had a lot of people who were really, really focused on helping us because they, they had a piece of the company. Uh, and you know, I've seen other people who end up having a hundred percent of a company, but, um, you know, don't really surround themselves with bright people and, uh, and a hundred percent of nothing isn't really worth the bus at all.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that so many people start”

Q And you, you mentioned there, obviously Facebook and, and then Twitter were also marketing platform partners with shift and LinkedIn certified marketing partners. So what was it like working with these tech titans? I mean, we often hear about that kind of, Uh, company culture being very slow to move and adapt. Did you find that when you worked with them?

A No, not at all. I mean, I think, you know, we were fortunate in that, um, for Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Pinterest, Instagram, pretty much every single social network ever launched, we've been a launch partner with them. And the great thing about that has been twofold. One is, you know, they're creating these new ecosystems, uh, you know, along with us. So in a lot of ways, we feel like we're having a really big impact and helping them figure out where this all goes. Um, Uh, and the other thing is we've been in social for, you know, relatively speaking a long time, um, as long as a lot of these people have. Uh, and so a lot of ways we feel like they're our peers, and we've sort of grown up with them in this space, and so it's been, it's been really fun. We've seen a lot of people kind of grow to really interesting positions at these companies. Um, the partners themselves just couldn't have been more supportive to us over the years, and, you know, unlike, Kind of traditional big companies. These guys move really fast. You know, when they decide they want to do something, they do it. Uh, and they, they tend to be pretty successful in doing it, so it's been fascinating just working with them.

AI assessment note: “No, not at all... unlike, Kind of traditional big companies. These guys move really fast.”

Q And then, now, you were acquired, obviously, then by Brand Networks, and how has then your role changed since being acquired, and what advice would you give to founders who are contemplating being acquired by a much larger organization?

A Yeah, so I'm now the, the chief product officer of the company, and so, uh, that's obviously a transition going from CEO to just focusing on product. Um, you know, I think there's a It's, you know, I think it's one of those things where you have to understand that, you know, uh, when being acquired, you obviously, there's a level of, uh, a level of control that you once had that obviously goes away just by nature of no longer being completely in control. Uh, and I think, you know, that's something that as long as you have, uh, phenomenal partners in it, it makes it a good thing. And, and we've been lucky in that the Brad Network team has just been great. Uh, you know, if they, uh, If they ended up being bad guys, then, you know, I think I'd probably have a different perspective on it, but, uh, it's really been, for me, a good opportunity to really focus on product, uh, and to kind of help, you know, there's all these things we always want to do over the years, but I, unfortunately, you know, when you're running a company, you basically spend about five percent of your time actually focusing on the things that you would deem important, and about 95% of the time working on things like, Fundraising and HR and hiring and all the things that, you know, kind of the business of doing business. So it's been a great opportunity for me to really focus and to do the things I want to do on…

AI assessment note: “I'm now the, the chief product officer of the company, and so, that's obviously a transition”

Q And then, now, you were acquired, obviously, then by Brand Networks, and how has then your role changed since being acquired, and what advice would you give to founders who are contemplating being acquired by a much larger organization?

A Yeah, so I'm now the, the chief product officer of the company, and so, uh, that's obviously a transition going from CEO to just focusing on product. Um, you know, I think there's a It's, you know, I think it's one of those things where you have to understand that, you know, uh, when being acquired, you obviously, there's a level of, uh, a level of control that you once had that obviously goes away just by nature of no longer being completely in control. Uh, and I think, you know, that's something that as long as you have, uh, phenomenal partners in it, it makes it a good thing. And, and we've been lucky in that the Brad Network team has just been great. Uh, you know, if they, uh, If they ended up being bad guys, then, you know, I think I'd probably have a different perspective on it, but, uh, it's really been, for me, a good opportunity to really focus on product, uh, and to kind of help, you know, there's all these things we always want to do over the years, but I, unfortunately, you know, when you're running a company, you basically spend about five percent of your time actually focusing on the things that you would deem important, and about 95% of the time working on things like, Fundraising and HR and hiring and all the things that, you know, kind of the business of doing business. So it's been a great opportunity for me to really focus and to do the things I want to do on…

AI assessment note: “I'm now the, the chief product officer of the company”

Q So would you say that it's very important for young startup founders and employees to have a mentor to guide them through the process?

A Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, without a doubt. I have a ton of really just incredible advisors, um, you know, And friends, not to mention an incredible co-founder in Clark, um, but there's absolutely no reason to reinvent the wheel on a lot of this stuff, and, you know, everyone's smart, you know, in terms of their own ability to learn these things, but you're gonna waste a couple years trying to learn it, and so, you know, I would not be, uh, I would not be shy in asking questions. There's no ego in this at all, in terms of yourself. Like, the, the ego should be around, uh, Making the company successful and making sure that your employees and investors do well. Um, so I think, you know, finding advisors, um, finding great co-founders, um, not being short-sighted with things like equity. Uh, you know, I think those are all key things to it that, uh, I would just, you know, I couldn't encourage people more to really think about.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, without a doubt. I have a ton of really just incredible advisors”

Q And you said there about the safety net of having the university to fall back on if it didn't work out. Would you say safety nets are quite good for entrepreneurs? So would you suggest that people shouldn't leave day jobs and should try and do it on weekends in the early stages? Their passions may be.

A Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's, it's hard to, you know, there's always cases that work either way, but I think in general, I think, you know, like anything, you just really don't know what sort of these businesses really are until you start doing them. So I think just sort of cutting the cord immediately is really, really tough. Um, you know, I think it's like anything, it's like diving straight into law school, I think probably would have been unwise as well. Um, you know, it was great for me to go get that exposure, um, Working for a startup. And so I think likewise, if you want to go ahead and start something, start it. It's incredibly easy to start something. It sounds ridiculous, but it is really easy to start something. Um, so do it in your free time. Uh, and you know, I think, you know, it's really hard to go back and it's, uh, it's also just, you know, mentally exhausting to go back. Uh, so I think, you know, learn as much as you can about what you're doing and then go back to it if you want to.

AI assessment note: “cutting the cord immediately is really, really tough. Um, so do it in your free time.”

Q Would that be your biggest piece of advice to founders maybe entering a funding round to really approach them with caution because they will be yours for a while?

A Yeah, and I also wouldn't raise money for the sake of raising money. Um, you know, when I say, you know, don't be short-sighted with equity, uh, you know, with co-founders and investors, I agree with that. I also think don't be short-sighted with it in terms of, uh, uh, raising money. Uh, you know, I wouldn't, I've definitely learned, you know, if you're a first-time entrepreneur, do your research about preferences, understand the impacts of these rounds, understand that, There's going to be bad times and that these investors are going to be there for both the good and bad ones. Uh, so I just think, you know, take it really seriously. It's fun to get the tech crunch article, but in a lot of ways it doesn't really matter. Um, it's like cool to show your friends at home, but it, it almost has no impact on your business. Um, so I would just really go into it with very open eyes.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, and I also wouldn't raise money for the sake of raising money.”

Q Would that be your biggest piece of advice to founders maybe entering a funding round to really approach them with caution because they will be yours for a while?

A Yeah, and I also wouldn't raise money for the sake of raising money. Um, you know, when I say, you know, don't be short-sighted with equity, uh, you know, with co-founders and investors, I agree with that. I also think don't be short-sighted with it in terms of, uh, uh, raising money. Uh, you know, I wouldn't, I've definitely learned, you know, if you're a first-time entrepreneur, do your research about preferences, understand the impacts of these rounds, understand that, There's going to be bad times and that these investors are going to be there for both the good and bad ones. Uh, so I just think, you know, take it really seriously. It's fun to get the tech crunch article, but in a lot of ways it doesn't really matter. Um, it's like cool to show your friends at home, but it, it almost has no impact on your business. Um, so I would just really go into it with very open eyes.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, and I also wouldn't raise money for the sake of raising money.”

Q And what do you say there when you say short-sighted by equity? Do you mean being too, uh, possessive over it?

A Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that so many people start, you know, especially in the early days, they start sort of chasing the shiny object, thinking about what their equity could represent, and equity is obviously incredibly important, but I think that you want people to feel like they're owners in the company, and you want even advisors to have the skin in the game, and so I just think, you know, if you want people to, if you want people to have a similar perspective to you, as you do, then I think you really kind of have to help Everyone, uh, be incentivized to do that. Uh, and for us, it was, it was great. You know, we, we had a lot of people who were really, really focused on helping us because they, they had a piece of the company. Uh, and you know, I've seen other people who end up having a hundred percent of a company, but, um, you know, don't really surround themselves with bright people and, uh, and a hundred percent of nothing isn't really worth the bus at all.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that so many people start”

Q And you said there about the safety net of having the university to fall back on if it didn't work out. Would you say safety nets are quite good for entrepreneurs? So would you suggest that people shouldn't leave day jobs and should try and do it on weekends in the early stages? Their passions may be.

A Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's, it's hard to, you know, there's always cases that work either way, but I think in general, I think, you know, like anything, you just really don't know what sort of these businesses really are until you start doing them. So I think just sort of cutting the cord immediately is really, really tough. Um, you know, I think it's like anything, it's like diving straight into law school, I think probably would have been unwise as well. Um, you know, it was great for me to go get that exposure, um, Working for a startup. And so I think likewise, if you want to go ahead and start something, start it. It's incredibly easy to start something. It sounds ridiculous, but it is really easy to start something. Um, so do it in your free time. Uh, and you know, I think, you know, it's really hard to go back and it's, uh, it's also just, you know, mentally exhausting to go back. Uh, so I think, you know, learn as much as you can about what you're doing and then go back to it if you want to.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's, it's hard to”

Q And as shifts scaled, how did you deal with the scaling process of kind of increasing hires and increasing budgets? Was it tough for you to adjust to?

A Yeah, it was, uh, it was definitely a process. Um, I had just some phenomenal advisors, uh, and, uh, And, you know, employees, uh, along the way, um, you know, we had, you know, in the early days, and I think this is still a healthy way to think about it, but I was, you know, I was almost scared of, uh, I was scared of spending money, and I was scared of growing headcount. Um, and, you know, I had, uh, an advisor who was a president of ours for a period of time, a guy named Stefano Kim, uh, who's a great operator, um, one of the best sort of operators I've ever met, uh, you know, sat me down and explained to me that, uh, That you need to invest to grow, and, uh, you need to make bets, uh, if you really kind of believe in what you're doing, and it was a hugely kind of important perspective for me to gain. Um, you know, at the time, I was like, 26, and you just, you didn't want to, you didn't want to burn for the sake of burn, and, and I think that's still a healthy way to think, but at the same time, there are times where you do need to burn if you want to, uh, invest in things that make sense for you the long term. Uh, so it was definitely an interesting, uh, transition to go through, uh, And still kind of, I think, takes a healthy balance. You can't sort of buy your own BS and chase the shiny object, and you can't go ahead and think there's always going to be funding, but if t…

AI assessment note: “sat me down and explained to me that you need to invest to grow”

Q And so it's tough to have to educate clients on your, your offering, uh, and the value of your offering. So you, you did it through saying that it will increase their value proposition to their users, was it? How, how did you sell it to them?

A Yeah, the early days, um, you know, it really was about reaching just a whole new audience. Um, you know, that was sort of, I would say kind of day one of where the, the value proposition was. Um, you know, as things evolved, uh, and, you know, even where they sit today as part of brand networks, uh, the value proposition is that it's one marketing platform for you to manage all of your paid, owned, and earned, and have all your stakeholders to work together and advertise across every single social network. Uh, so it's evolved dramatically from where it was, uh, on day one, but I think, you know, on day one, you know, we were trying to make it, Uh, as simple as possible if people understand, and again, this is, you know, five, six years ago, you know, the, the marketing teams at Microsoft, you know, we're still kind of confused about why the hell they should advertise on this Facebook thing. You know, it was a bunch of college kids. Um, so definitely interesting experience, but, uh, you know, we got to the point where we had a lot of advertisers. We actually, before really even had a company formed, it was the kind of a classic cliche, uh, Startup story had like checks in a shoebox under my bed. Um, so it was, uh, I see like movies and like TV shows, uh, talking about startups. It kind of makes me cringe just because it strikes home, uh, pretty closely.

AI assessment note: “in the early days it really was about reaching just a whole new audience”

Q And so it's tough to have to educate clients on your, your offering, uh, and the value of your offering. So you, you did it through saying that it will increase their value proposition to their users, was it? How, how did you sell it to them?

A Yeah, the early days, um, you know, it really was about reaching just a whole new audience. Um, you know, that was sort of, I would say kind of day one of where the, the value proposition was. Um, you know, as things evolved, uh, and, you know, even where they sit today as part of brand networks, uh, the value proposition is that it's one marketing platform for you to manage all of your paid, owned, and earned, and have all your stakeholders to work together and advertise across every single social network. Uh, so it's evolved dramatically from where it was, uh, on day one, but I think, you know, on day one, you know, we were trying to make it, Uh, as simple as possible if people understand, and again, this is, you know, five, six years ago, you know, the, the marketing teams at Microsoft, you know, we're still kind of confused about why the hell they should advertise on this Facebook thing. You know, it was a bunch of college kids. Um, so definitely interesting experience, but, uh, you know, we got to the point where we had a lot of advertisers. We actually, before really even had a company formed, it was the kind of a classic cliche, uh, Startup story had like checks in a shoebox under my bed. Um, so it was, uh, I see like movies and like TV shows, uh, talking about startups. It kind of makes me cringe just because it strikes home, uh, pretty closely.

AI assessment note: “it really was about reaching just a whole new audience.”