The Exchanges

Q Can you get the ball rolling for us by telling us how you made it into startups and the investing industry?

A Uh, yeah, sure. I mean, I've, I've always been really interested in technology. Even as a kid, uh, I loved science and, and math, uh, studied engineering as a, as a university student. And then I've really been in technology my entire life. Uh, I was, worked as an engineer for a while, uh, spent some time at some larger companies like Microsoft and Samsung, uh, and then a couple of venture-backed businesses, uh, one called Flingo and one called Thumb, uh, where I was, uh, one of the first employees and an executive at both places running marketing and BD and a bunch of stuff and product. Amazing experience. Got to work with great people. Both companies, uh, were fortunate to be acquired, so I got to kind of Live through that whole life cycle. Um, and then back in 2009, started talking to three of my really good friends from university. We're all engineering students at Penn back in the late nineties, and they were all entrepreneurs as well, and, uh, started putting together what became, uh, ENIAC Ventures, our, our VC fund. Uh, we started investing in 2010 and are now on our, our third fund. Uh, which is entirely focused on seed stage, uh, and then even more specifically On mobile first companies, companies that leverage the proliferation of connected devices.

AI assessment note: “started putting together what became, uh, ENIAC Ventures, our, our VC fund.”

Q So, so you suggest 18 to 24 months, do you?

A 18 to 24, I think, is the right number. I think that the two things that are going to help this in the future, and we really try, is one is the rise of pre-seed. I know that, you know, London has a very good, you know, angel investing ecosystem. Here in the States, we also have a lot of pre-seed funds that they themselves are becoming pretty institutionalized. So generally, when we look at companies, they've raised already a half a million dollars, and they've, they've, that's given them traction, and then, uh, we're participating, or we're leading rounds of, you know, around a million and a half, two million dollars that can get them to where they need to do to raise the A. So I think it's about kind of raising the right amount of money and being honest with yourself and giving yourself that, that buffer so that, you know, if you do need to tweak the model or things are slower, you don't get the product to market as quick as, as you wanted. You know, you can still be successful without having to raise the second seed. Now, companies have, certainly there's a bunch of companies that have raised second seeds and have gone on to be successful, but, uh, once you get to that point, I think your, your chances of success are lower.

AI assessment note: “18 to 24, I think, is the right number.”

Q So 2009, how have you seen the, the New York venture scene change over the last few years, over the last six, well, blimey seven years now. How has it changed?

A Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I, I, I go back and forth a lot between San Francisco and New York, and then when we first started, I was kind of doing something, so I was spending a lot of time in Boston, probably the two, the three largest, uh, U.S. tech centers, uh, maybe you throw L.A. into the mix there now, but yeah, it's interesting. New York has definitely grown a lot. It had always been not well respected in, in the venture scene. Traditionally, certainly San Francisco and the Valley, number one, I think Boston had kind of been the second Uh, biggest hub, and there were places like Seattle and, and New York was always seen as something that was, you know, had certainly big industries, uh, for sure, uh, finance and, and media, uh, fashion, real estate, all these other areas, but, but tech had never really taken off. I think it's gotten to the point where it's clearly the second biggest market. If you look at kind of money invested, it, uh, it's still quite a bit smaller. If you look at kind of our investments last year, about half were in San Francisco, about a quarter were in New York and about a quarter were We're elsewhere. I mean, we're, we're generally geographically agnostic. Um, so I, I, I'm a big believer that New York will continue to grow into a very, uh, you know, interesting place to start companies. There's a ton of talent. It's a place where people want …

AI assessment note: “It's gotten to the point where it's clearly the second biggest market.”

Q So, so you suggest 18 to 24 months, do you?

A 18 to 24, I think, is the right number. I think that the two things that are going to help this in the future, and we really try, is one is the rise of pre-seed. I know that, you know, London has a very good, you know, angel investing ecosystem. Here in the States, we also have a lot of pre-seed funds that they themselves are becoming pretty institutionalized. So generally, when we look at companies, they've raised already a half a million dollars, and they've, they've, that's given them traction, and then, uh, we're participating, or we're leading rounds of, you know, around a million and a half, two million dollars that can get them to where they need to do to raise the A. So I think it's about kind of raising the right amount of money and being honest with yourself and giving yourself that, that buffer so that, you know, if you do need to tweak the model or things are slower, you don't get the product to market as quick as, as you wanted. You know, you can still be successful without having to raise the second seed. Now, companies have, certainly there's a bunch of companies that have raised second seeds and have gone on to be successful, but, uh, once you get to that point, I think your, your chances of success are lower.

AI assessment note: “18 to 24, I think, is the right number.”

Q And then you also said that about having the mobile first focus for your funds. Now, of all the differing platforms that were available to you, why did you choose that one?

A Yeah, I think it was, there's two main reasons. Uh, the first is that we were just at a belief that that was the next evolution of computing, uh, back in 2009, 2010. Uh, interestingly, a lot of the VCs that we had worked with as entrepreneurs who are Very well-respected, uh, VCs and continue to be very well-respected and nothing against them, but a lot of them told us that, you know, it was too niche, that we needed to be broader. Uh, I don't think anyone's really saying that now, if you look at kind of the, the percentage of, of funds that go into something that, that we would consider to be mobile first. Um, and then I guess probably more importantly, it was what we knew. So we had all been involved with starting and growing, uh, mobile companies. I think about 12 between the four of us. Um, so, you know, I, I think you really need to invest and work with what you know, and if you want to be helpful to your entrepreneurs as an investor, you need to have a lot of domain knowledge. So at that time, there was other things that were quote unquote hot, like, uh, like clean tech, for example, and we were very fortunate not to go into that area.

AI assessment note: “there's two main reasons. Uh, the first is that we were just at a belief”

Q And then you also said that about having the mobile first focus for your funds. Now, of all the differing platforms that were available to you, why did you choose that one?

A Yeah, I think it was, there's two main reasons. Uh, the first is that we were just at a belief that that was the next evolution of computing, uh, back in 2009, 2010. Uh, interestingly, a lot of the VCs that we had worked with as entrepreneurs who are Very well-respected, uh, VCs and continue to be very well-respected and nothing against them, but a lot of them told us that, you know, it was too niche, that we needed to be broader. Uh, I don't think anyone's really saying that now, if you look at kind of the, the percentage of, of funds that go into something that, that we would consider to be mobile first. Um, and then I guess probably more importantly, it was what we knew. So we had all been involved with starting and growing, uh, mobile companies. I think about 12 between the four of us. Um, so, you know, I, I think you really need to invest and work with what you know, and if you want to be helpful to your entrepreneurs as an investor, you need to have a lot of domain knowledge. So at that time, there was other things that were quote unquote hot, like, uh, like clean tech, for example, and we were very fortunate not to go into that area.

AI assessment note: “there's two main reasons. Uh, the first is that we were just at a belief”

Q And talking about kind of agreeing and getting on with the team, do you have a, a VC founder kind of fit or alignment assessment, a way to evaluate whether they are going to be a good fit for you? What do you look for in those founders?

A Yeah, that's a great question. I think it depends on the situation because Uh, different founders can have, can be very different and still be great founders. Um, I think it's all about spending a lot of time with those founders, talking through the business, just getting to know them, getting to understand their motivations, uh, getting to know the other important people on the team, whether they be co-founders or kind of early employees. It's really about getting an understanding for what makes them tick. Uh, the great founders we find, uh, have a passion for what they're doing that's beyond just monetary. Uh, they, they want to, uh, you know, solve a problem, uh, and change the world in, in some way. Um, so we really try and kind of get into that. Um, probably the, the type of team we like least, kind of, uh, in this area is teams that kind of stumble upon a problem, or they're just trying to find a problem to fix. The, the best teams are ones that kind of in their everyday life as an employee or, or as a consumer notice something they want to fix, and then instead of, You know, maybe they don't, can't find a solution, so they say, hey, I can create the great, great solution to this, and I can change the world. Um, so, so we really try and find folks that, that are thinking that way.

AI assessment note: “spending a lot of time with those founders, talking through the business”

Q Sure. And, and in terms of the valuation for the startups that you invest in, how much of a role does valuation play in determining whether you invest or not? Are you a Sheryl Sandberg fan in terms of it doesn't matter where you sit as long as you have a seat on the rocket ship?

A Uh, yeah, I think I'm probably somewhere in the middle. I, I generally think that, you know, the company itself and what they're doing and their potential is certainly the most important thing, uh, that said, uh, if you consistently overpay, it will be very hard to have good returns for, for our investors. So, you know, I think we want to work with the entrepreneurs to come up with valuations that make sense for them that fairly value their company, uh, but also set them up for success, uh, In the future. I think there's a lot of companies now, especially at the later stages, that are going to have a lot of issues in the next year because they raised rounds at too high of a valuation. The market has corrected, and now they need to raise rounds at down rounds or flat rounds, and that's going to really hurt the entrepreneurs in terms of liquidation. It's going to hurt the investors, and it's also going to hurt the, the employees that have all those stock options. So I think you need to find a value that is fair rather than Just kind of pushing for the highest valuation possible.

AI assessment note: “I think I'm probably somewhere in the middle.”

Q And talking of raising a Series C, is further funding one of your main value adds as a VC, do you think?

A Yeah, no, it absolutely is. I, I think we, we work with different companies in different ways depending on the company's needs. One of the things that we always are very involved with is follow on funding. Uh, our model is to take our pro rata in the follow on rounds, but, but we would never lead a series A or B or something like that, uh, given our size and our focus. Um, but we forged really strong relationships with all of the A, B and beyond investors. Uh, you know, if you think about it, we're almost like, uh, This would be an American analogy, but the minor leagues for them, so, you know, the, the, we're, we're funding companies, and they have, they can keep an eye on, they know that we know what we're doing, and we're, we can surface the companies to be a great, Uh, fit for them. You know, if there's a partner at a fund who's very focused on enterprise mobility, for example, you know, we, we know that we have a company that's a great enterprise mobile company to, to bring it to them as opposed to, you know, partners or other funds that have different focuses.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, no, it absolutely is.”

Q And you said about your commitment to follow on there. What do you make then of like the founder collective's lack of commitment to follow on in terms of not lack of commitment, that's unfair, but they say it misaligns the objectives of the investor and the founder. What do you make of that?

A I, I, I like those guys a lot. We have a lot of co-investments with them. Uh, so I, I think they're great investors. I don't agree with, with the idea of not following on in your good companies. I think we tend to be as supportive as we can. I think our, our companies generally want us to follow on so that we can one stay involved, but show a commitment to the new investors. You know, so when our companies raise a strong follow on round from a new investor, We generally follow on and that's, I can't say it's a, it's a, it's a rule because each situation is different, but we, but we, uh, you know, do our best to be as supportive as possible. Uh, so I, I, I think their, their rationale is around signaling, uh, which is fair enough. Um, but if you always follow when, when they raise a new round from a new investor, you also get around, uh, any signaling issues.

AI assessment note: “I don't agree with, with the idea of not following on”

Q And so many exciting things to unpack there for me. Um, but first let's start with the engineering background. What do you think the engineering, um, degree gives you to your investing? Does it give you a deeper understanding of the product which sufficiently helps your investing style? What's the benefits of having that background?

A Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of, of engineering as, as a discipline. I think it teaches a lot of problem solving, so just at a high level, even for folks that aren't necessarily utilizing, uh, that technical background, I, I think it's, it's a great background to have just for, you know, thinking about, you know, young students that are considering different paths. Uh, more specifically with me, I think having an engineering background and, and kind of having built products before it, I think, uh, gives me a better understanding of Of the types of things our entrepreneurs are building. Now, of course, so many things have changed in terms of the tools and the languages that, you know, I would be completely useless if I actually had to build something now, but, but having the background, I think at least lets me kind of understand, uh, even if at a high level, Some of the things they're going through as they're building their products.

AI assessment note: “gives me a better understanding of Of the types of things our entrepreneurs are building”

Q So 2009, how have you seen the, the New York venture scene change over the last few years, over the last six, well, blimey seven years now. How has it changed?

A Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I, I, I go back and forth a lot between San Francisco and New York, and then when we first started, I was kind of doing something, so I was spending a lot of time in Boston, probably the two, the three largest, uh, U.S. tech centers, uh, maybe you throw L.A. into the mix there now, but yeah, it's interesting. New York has definitely grown a lot. It had always been not well respected in, in the venture scene. Traditionally, certainly San Francisco and the Valley, number one, I think Boston had kind of been the second Uh, biggest hub, and there were places like Seattle and, and New York was always seen as something that was, you know, had certainly big industries, uh, for sure, uh, finance and, and media, uh, fashion, real estate, all these other areas, but, but tech had never really taken off. I think it's gotten to the point where it's clearly the second biggest market. If you look at kind of money invested, it, uh, it's still quite a bit smaller. If you look at kind of our investments last year, about half were in San Francisco, about a quarter were in New York and about a quarter were We're elsewhere. I mean, we're, we're generally geographically agnostic. Um, so I, I, I'm a big believer that New York will continue to grow into a very, uh, you know, interesting place to start companies. There's a ton of talent. It's a place where people want …

AI assessment note: “I think it's gotten to the point where it's clearly the second biggest market.”

Q And talking of raising a Series C, is further funding one of your main value adds as a VC, do you think?

A Yeah, no, it absolutely is. I, I think we, we work with different companies in different ways depending on the company's needs. One of the things that we always are very involved with is follow on funding. Uh, our model is to take our pro rata in the follow on rounds, but, but we would never lead a series A or B or something like that, uh, given our size and our focus. Um, but we forged really strong relationships with all of the A, B and beyond investors. Uh, you know, if you think about it, we're almost like, uh, This would be an American analogy, but the minor leagues for them, so, you know, the, the, we're, we're funding companies, and they have, they can keep an eye on, they know that we know what we're doing, and we're, we can surface the companies to be a great, Uh, fit for them. You know, if there's a partner at a fund who's very focused on enterprise mobility, for example, you know, we, we know that we have a company that's a great enterprise mobile company to, to bring it to them as opposed to, you know, partners or other funds that have different focuses.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, no, it absolutely is. I, I think we, we work”

Q Sure. And, and in terms of the valuation for the startups that you invest in, how much of a role does valuation play in determining whether you invest or not? Are you a Sheryl Sandberg fan in terms of it doesn't matter where you sit as long as you have a seat on the rocket ship?

A Uh, yeah, I think I'm probably somewhere in the middle. I, I generally think that, you know, the company itself and what they're doing and their potential is certainly the most important thing, uh, that said, uh, if you consistently overpay, it will be very hard to have good returns for, for our investors. So, you know, I think we want to work with the entrepreneurs to come up with valuations that make sense for them that fairly value their company, uh, but also set them up for success, uh, In the future. I think there's a lot of companies now, especially at the later stages, that are going to have a lot of issues in the next year because they raised rounds at too high of a valuation. The market has corrected, and now they need to raise rounds at down rounds or flat rounds, and that's going to really hurt the entrepreneurs in terms of liquidation. It's going to hurt the investors, and it's also going to hurt the, the employees that have all those stock options. So I think you need to find a value that is fair rather than Just kind of pushing for the highest valuation possible.

AI assessment note: “I think I'm probably somewhere in the middle.”

Q And you said about your commitment to follow on there. What do you make then of like the founder collective's lack of commitment to follow on in terms of not lack of commitment, that's unfair, but they say it misaligns the objectives of the investor and the founder. What do you make of that?

A I, I, I like those guys a lot. We have a lot of co-investments with them. Uh, so I, I think they're great investors. I don't agree with, with the idea of not following on in your good companies. I think we tend to be as supportive as we can. I think our, our companies generally want us to follow on so that we can one stay involved, but show a commitment to the new investors. You know, so when our companies raise a strong follow on round from a new investor, We generally follow on and that's, I can't say it's a, it's a, it's a rule because each situation is different, but we, but we, uh, you know, do our best to be as supportive as possible. Uh, so I, I, I think their, their rationale is around signaling, uh, which is fair enough. Um, but if you always follow when, when they raise a new round from a new investor, you also get around, uh, any signaling issues.

AI assessment note: “I don't agree with, with the idea of not following on in your good companies.”

Q And you said there about the Series A crunch, the drop-off gap in between Series A and Seed. Have you seen, in London, we've seen a huge rise of the second Seed, or the pre-Series A. Have you seen that in New York?

A Yeah, for sure. I mean, I, we've seen a lot on, uh, on both coasts here. We generally don't participate kind of as a new investor in those, uh, when we have companies that need to do that, you know, we try and be as supportive as possible. Um, I think one thing we've been trying to do for the last couple of years is, uh, set ourselves up for success so that we won't have to do that. And I guess the two parts there is, um, raising enough money in the seed to Uh, that we have kind of 18 to 24 months to do what we need to do to get to the A. Uh, the biggest mistake I see is, uh, companies not raising a large enough seed, uh, where, and you look at it, it's like, well, there's really no room for, for, uh, you know, anything to go wrong, and anyone who's spent time with startups, that's, that's not gonna happen.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, for sure. I mean, I, we've seen a lot on, uh, on both coasts”

Q And talking about kind of agreeing and getting on with the team, do you have a, a VC founder kind of fit or alignment assessment, a way to evaluate whether they are going to be a good fit for you? What do you look for in those founders?

A Yeah, that's a great question. I think it depends on the situation because Uh, different founders can have, can be very different and still be great founders. Um, I think it's all about spending a lot of time with those founders, talking through the business, just getting to know them, getting to understand their motivations, uh, getting to know the other important people on the team, whether they be co-founders or kind of early employees. It's really about getting an understanding for what makes them tick. Uh, the great founders we find, uh, have a passion for what they're doing that's beyond just monetary. Uh, they, they want to, uh, you know, solve a problem, uh, and change the world in, in some way. Um, so we really try and kind of get into that. Um, probably the, the type of team we like least, kind of, uh, in this area is teams that kind of stumble upon a problem, or they're just trying to find a problem to fix. The, the best teams are ones that kind of in their everyday life as an employee or, or as a consumer notice something they want to fix, and then instead of, You know, maybe they don't, can't find a solution, so they say, hey, I can create the great, great solution to this, and I can change the world. Um, so, so we really try and find folks that, that are thinking that way.

AI assessment note: “spending a lot of time with those founders, talking through the business”

Q And, and talking of the companies you've backed now, you've backed a number of rocket ships, including Airbnb, SoundCloud, Vungle, and, and you've helped them scale operations. So what's that like being involved with such rocket ships?

A Well, you know, a lot of the companies that we've backed are still relatively young. Airbnb is a situation where we sold a company to them early on. And then so we I think we got we're very fortunate that they've become the company that they have. I can't take any credit for their their dominance in their market. We have a bunch of companies that we backed, you know, when we started, 2010, 2011 that are that are getting to be sizable companies in their markets. But, you know, it takes a long time to create Uh, uh, a Google-type company. So, you know, in the grand scheme of things, a lot of our companies are still small. They're certainly private. They're kind of at the stage where they're starting to raise, like, Series C is kind of the furthest along. We have a handful of those types of companies. But, you know, I, I think if things go well, I, I would love to see them. Get to the point where they will be IPO-ing. Um, but you know, it's a long ways from a Series C to an IPO.

AI assessment note: “I can't take any credit for their their dominance in their market.”

Q And we said earlier about the Series C raise for, for some of your companies, and considering your, your focus on the seed stage, one of your functions, obviously, is to help with further raises. So why do you think raising a Series B, Series C is so tough at the moment? Is it the embodiment of the funding barbell, do you think?

A Yeah, I mean, I think, Every round is tough to us to one degree or another. You could argue that probably the biggest drop off happens between the seed and the a rather than the a and the b. Um, and I think that's just because there is so much seed money and there are so many seed funds compared to a funds, um, where, you know, you really, that that's kind of, there's, if you look at the funnel, there's, there's a lot of, uh, companies that just can't fit to that next stage. It's normal though. Uh, I, I think that just the way that things work, and if you look at the relative valuations that, that people invest there, that funds invest at at C versus A versus B versus C, if, if there wasn't a drop-off, then, uh, the market would have to correct itself. Um, so I think it's normal, and that not, not every company can raise the fall-on rounds. Uh, luckily, you know, for those that don't, um, you know, we've been fortunate to have a lot of those companies acquired and, and, and actually do pretty well on those. The, the aim is to invest in companies that will, Become, uh, you know, self-sustaining, you know, long-term companies and hopefully great companies that, uh, IPO or, or, uh, you know, uh, arts can sustain themselves, uh, just, just based on their business. Um, but the reality is a lot won't get there, and if they can have an exit that, that is successful for, Us, the founde…

AI assessment note: “probably the biggest drop off happens between the seed and the a”

Q And so many exciting things to unpack there for me. Um, but first let's start with the engineering background. What do you think the engineering, um, degree gives you to your investing? Does it give you a deeper understanding of the product which sufficiently helps your investing style? What's the benefits of having that background?

A Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of, of engineering as, as a discipline. I think it teaches a lot of problem solving, so just at a high level, even for folks that aren't necessarily utilizing, uh, that technical background, I, I think it's, it's a great background to have just for, you know, thinking about, you know, young students that are considering different paths. Uh, more specifically with me, I think having an engineering background and, and kind of having built products before it, I think, uh, gives me a better understanding of Of the types of things our entrepreneurs are building. Now, of course, so many things have changed in terms of the tools and the languages that, you know, I would be completely useless if I actually had to build something now, but, but having the background, I think at least lets me kind of understand, uh, even if at a high level, Some of the things they're going through as they're building their products.

AI assessment note: “gives me a better understanding of Of the types of things our entrepreneurs are building”

Q And, and talking of the companies you've backed now, you've backed a number of rocket ships, including Airbnb, SoundCloud, Vungle, and, and you've helped them scale operations. So what's that like being involved with such rocket ships?

A Well, you know, a lot of the companies that we've backed are still relatively young. Airbnb is a situation where we sold a company to them early on. And then so we I think we got we're very fortunate that they've become the company that they have. I can't take any credit for their their dominance in their market. We have a bunch of companies that we backed, you know, when we started, 2010, 2011 that are that are getting to be sizable companies in their markets. But, you know, it takes a long time to create Uh, uh, a Google-type company. So, you know, in the grand scheme of things, a lot of our companies are still small. They're certainly private. They're kind of at the stage where they're starting to raise, like, Series C is kind of the furthest along. We have a handful of those types of companies. But, you know, I, I think if things go well, I, I would love to see them. Get to the point where they will be IPO-ing. Um, but you know, it's a long ways from a Series C to an IPO.

AI assessment note: “in the grand scheme of things, a lot of our companies are still small.”

Q And we said earlier about the Series C raise for, for some of your companies, and considering your, your focus on the seed stage, one of your functions, obviously, is to help with further raises. So why do you think raising a Series B, Series C is so tough at the moment? Is it the embodiment of the funding barbell, do you think?

A Yeah, I mean, I think, Every round is tough to us to one degree or another. You could argue that probably the biggest drop off happens between the seed and the a rather than the a and the b. Um, and I think that's just because there is so much seed money and there are so many seed funds compared to a funds, um, where, you know, you really, that that's kind of, there's, if you look at the funnel, there's, there's a lot of, uh, companies that just can't fit to that next stage. It's normal though. Uh, I, I think that just the way that things work, and if you look at the relative valuations that, that people invest there, that funds invest at at C versus A versus B versus C, if, if there wasn't a drop-off, then, uh, the market would have to correct itself. Um, so I think it's normal, and that not, not every company can raise the fall-on rounds. Uh, luckily, you know, for those that don't, um, you know, we've been fortunate to have a lot of those companies acquired and, and, and actually do pretty well on those. The, the aim is to invest in companies that will, Become, uh, you know, self-sustaining, you know, long-term companies and hopefully great companies that, uh, IPO or, or, uh, you know, uh, arts can sustain themselves, uh, just, just based on their business. Um, but the reality is a lot won't get there, and if they can have an exit that, that is successful for, Us, the founde…

AI assessment note: “biggest drop off happens between the seed and the a rather than the a and the b”

Q How do you think you sustain morale in the founders and the team when you have a down round that is potentially damning on the company?

A Yeah, no, I think it's one of the hardest things to do. I, we've been fortunate that we haven't had one yet. So I can't, uh, kind of speak to this in terms of experience. Uh, I'm sure it will happen. It's just bound to happen based on the way things work. But, but I think that, uh, everyone, uh, everyone being The employees, the founders, and the investors have to work together, and there's going to have to be some flexibility to make sure that everyone's fully vested, and not vested from an equity point of view, but within the company, kind of morale-wise, to your point. You know, I think having founders and employees that Are properly motivated and focused on the future and are all in is probably the most important thing. Um, no, no great company has been created from people that, that weren't a hundred percent focused, uh, and really kind of living and breathing the company. Um, so I, I think that entrepreneurs as well as the investors need to be, Have some flexibility to make sure that everyone's aligned.

AI assessment note: “we haven't had one yet. So I can't, uh, kind of speak to this”

Q How do you think you sustain morale in the founders and the team when you have a down round that is potentially damning on the company?

A Yeah, no, I think it's one of the hardest things to do. I, we've been fortunate that we haven't had one yet. So I can't, uh, kind of speak to this in terms of experience. Uh, I'm sure it will happen. It's just bound to happen based on the way things work. But, but I think that, uh, everyone, uh, everyone being The employees, the founders, and the investors have to work together, and there's going to have to be some flexibility to make sure that everyone's fully vested, and not vested from an equity point of view, but within the company, kind of morale-wise, to your point. You know, I think having founders and employees that Are properly motivated and focused on the future and are all in is probably the most important thing. Um, no, no great company has been created from people that, that weren't a hundred percent focused, uh, and really kind of living and breathing the company. Um, so I, I think that entrepreneurs as well as the investors need to be, Have some flexibility to make sure that everyone's aligned.

AI assessment note: “we've been fortunate that we haven't had one yet”