The Exchanges

Q Dude, it's gonna be really fun. I mean, I don't get guests like you very often, so this is awesome. You've bluntly scaled Lempire to twenty-eight million in ARR, I think it is. Like, fundamentally, Talk to me about how's the scaling journey gone? What have been the highlights? What should people know as an intro?

A Yeah, I think like, uh, we, we started the Lempire with Lemlist in, uh, in, uh, so Lemlist is a sales engagement platform. Um, and, uh, our biggest differentiator was essentially the, the personalization part. It was a very crowded market when we, we first got started. Um, and as we kept growing, Uh, and, uh, having more product market fits. I felt like, uh, it was time a bit for us, you know, to, uh, to start expanding, uh, the, the product line. So right now empire is a suite of like, um, five tools that helps, uh, B to B businesses turn into big names. Uh, so we help them with a customer acquisition from, uh, all sides. So it's, it's pretty exciting. Uh, I would say that it's been a hell of a ride, you know, with a lot of ups and downs, but the, the good thing is like, uh, We're, we've been, like, fully bootstrapped. Uh, so we will end up the year close to, like, twenty nine million in ARR with ten million in, uh, EBDA. So it allows us to have a lot of, like, flexibility in what we want to do and how we want to do it, which, uh, is, uh, is pretty cool.

AI assessment note: “we've been, like, fully bootstrapped. Uh, so we will end up the year close”

Q I spoke to your team before this show. Um, I'm not gonna name, I'm not gonna name who said this, but one of them said you were unrealistic in your expectations. And that was a challenge. Do you think that is fair? And to what extent is that good? Because it pushes teams. Versus bad because it creates challenging environments.

A I don't think it as a, as something really bad, to be honest, because if you had say that In 2018, in a market where, uh, you have sales loft, outreach, were around for three, four years, and then hundreds of other competitors who have raised like tens of millions, that a French company out of Paris would have like thousands of customers in the U.S. be international, grow to like, uh, twenty eight million in AR and ten million in EBDA in like six and a half years. Yes, this is totally unrealistic. You know, like it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's against the odds. So I think sometimes you truly need to dream big and be realistic. If you want to achieve something that very few have done in the past. So for me, I think, I think it's fine. Yeah.

AI assessment note: “I don't think it as a, as something really bad, to be honest”

Q I do too. What meals do you have?

A Um, I kind of like change, uh, but overall it's like, uh, at lunchtime I eat very often like, uh, poke bowls. So it's like a rice, uh, edamame. So like little beans, uh, then it's like, uh, carrots, tomatoes, and then a protein. It can be like chicken or like salmon or anything. So this is basically like, uh, what I eat daily and I'm happy with it. And then I also eat, uh, a lot of pasta and meats, like pasta and meatballs. Like this is for me, uh, I cook this myself, but I really love it, and it's easy, simple, um, it gets me all the calories, proteins, and, uh, and carbohydrates that I need for training, so it's, yeah.

AI assessment note: “at lunchtime I eat very often like, uh, poke bowls”

Q I spoke to your team before this show. Um, I'm not gonna name, I'm not gonna name who said this, but one of them said you were unrealistic in your expectations. And that was a challenge. Do you think that is fair? And to what extent is that good? Because it pushes teams. Versus bad because it creates challenging environments.

A I don't think it as a, as something really bad, to be honest, because if you had say that In 2018, in a market where, uh, you have sales loft, outreach, were around for three, four years, and then hundreds of other competitors who have raised like tens of millions, that a French company out of Paris would have like thousands of customers in the U.S. be international, grow to like, uh, twenty eight million in AR and ten million in EBDA in like six and a half years. Yes, this is totally unrealistic. You know, like it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's against the odds. So I think sometimes you truly need to dream big and be realistic. If you want to achieve something that very few have done in the past. So for me, I think, I think it's fine. Yeah.

AI assessment note: “I don't think it as a, as something really bad, to be honest”

Q Um, okay. I want to talk a little bit about you. Cause I said at the beginning, you're like, well, I mean, relatively like incredibly cool, but also fucking weird in some respects, which I love. I know it's great. Like it's so much more interesting for me. You know, you trained for a iron man. Then got hit by a car. Can you just tell me what happened?

A It was actually like, uh, I, I really wanted to do, uh, an Ironman in 2024. Um, so I started training in January, uh, lots of ups and downs of the Ironman training, but I was really aiming for, uh, an actual, like, uh, a really good time during the Ironman. And one week before the race, I was doing my last, uh, bike training and eventually like, uh, a car came, uh, Just, uh, smashed my back and, uh, and, uh, and yeah, my bike was like cut in half. The car was also like really broken because, uh, it felt like a deer went on the side of the car, but the deer was me. Um, I broke my ribs. I had like ligaments in my shoulder that were torn away and obviously I couldn't race, but I finished an Ironman recently in California. So it took me, uh, it took me like, uh, A bit more than four months to recover. Uh, but having a race in mind, uh, was really like the driver for me to recover a lot faster.

AI assessment note: “one week before the race... a car came... Just, uh, smashed my back”

Q I do too. What meals do you have?

A Um, I kind of like change, uh, but overall it's like, uh, at lunchtime I eat very often like, uh, poke bowls. So it's like a rice, uh, edamame. So like little beans, uh, then it's like, uh, carrots, tomatoes, and then a protein. It can be like chicken or like salmon or anything. So this is basically like, uh, what I eat daily and I'm happy with it. And then I also eat, uh, a lot of pasta and meats, like pasta and meatballs. Like this is for me, uh, I cook this myself, but I really love it, and it's easy, simple, um, it gets me all the calories, proteins, and, uh, and carbohydrates that I need for training, so it's, yeah.

AI assessment note: “at lunchtime I eat very often like, uh, poke bowls”

Q Can I ask a weird one to finish? You mentioned your relationship with your mother. I'm very close to my mother. What was your biggest lesson from your mother?

A I think it was like, hard work doesn't always pay off, but you should enjoy working hard for yourself. Cause like my mom typically like, uh, she grew up on a farm. Like she had to take care of her like brother and sister or dad, like try to kill himself many times. Her mom died. Like she has like the, the toughest like life ever. Uh, they immigrated like from Italy to France, like, uh, had like, uh, lots of shits happening and she couldn't like, uh, study yet, you know, like she worked super hard. She was the first in the office, uh, working for like, uh, uh, Uh, tax office, but not making like a lot of money. She was really, really working hard, but not being rewarded for it because she was potentially doing too much work for others, et cetera. But eventually, you know, like, uh, when I asked her, okay, like you didn't make any money, like, uh, you worked really hard. Do you regret it? Like, do you regret not doing something else? And then she said, no, you know, it's like, uh, she works hard for herself. She works hard because she likes when the job is well done. And if you always work hard to get something in return, you don't get it always, you know, and it, it shouldn't be like, uh, it's something that's out of your control, you know? So, so sometimes I just feel like when I look at what I want to do and how I want to do it, I don't truly care, you know, if, uh, if somethi…

AI assessment note: “hard work doesn't always pay off, but you should enjoy working hard for yourself”

Q Okay. So now with the benefit of hindsight, dude, you can look back and go, oh, these were the fuck ups that I made. When you look back at the first zero to 250 K, that April to April, what are you like? Oh, we fucked up on that.

A Uh, yeah. One is, is really like something, um, it was quite harsh, but there are also some funny parts in it. Um, eventually, you know, I was really looking at how many visitors do we have? How many like, um, customer are activated from the signups, uh, and, uh, how many are paying? So activation for us, it's basically like that one metric that you try to find in your software. That's going to tell you whether or not people see the value Of what you've built. So for us activation rate was how many people who signed up actually launched the sales prospecting campaign. And that number was like really crap at first. It was like something like. So I tried to interview people, but it was super hard because once people are unhappy with your product in self-service, obviously they don't want to talk to you. So, so I was like, okay, trying to search. And eventually I was like, We need to read redesign entirely the product. So we decided to redesign from scratch, uh, the entire flow to create, to creating like campaign. And, uh, I remember pushing, uh, the, the new, the new project, like, uh, in production, like it was a Friday night and I woke up Saturday and on the community we had, there were like so many people like swearing at us, like the support, it was insane. The amount of messages. And people hated it. They hated the new interface. A lot of stuff were missing, et cetera. So i…

AI assessment note: “the churn that month was close to like 50%. So that was like huge.”

Q What did you change to take activation from 10 to 40%?

A Yes, so essentially, like, uh, initially the way it was built, you had to create, like, uh, different templates, you had to create a list, you had to create, like, a lot of different things in different areas, and once you had created everything, then you had to combine Everything into a campaign. But if you wanted to create a campaign and had not creating anything before, you couldn't. And that's why people were pissed off because they did not understand that you had to be like a, it w it was basically kind of like an engineer product, you know, like a first you build all the building blocks and you are very well structured and this is, and then later on you combine it, you make tests and it's much easier for you to do it. But in reality, people, they want, you know, like you should take them by the hand and say, this is step one, then this is step Step two, this is logical and step three and so on and so forth. So that's what we did. We entirely rebuilt the campaign creation, making it like much easier for people to go from A to Z, and it changed pretty much everything at that time.

AI assessment note: “We entirely rebuilt the campaign creation, making it like much easier”

Q into that. I'm just intrigued. Fundraising. I'm a venture investor. So let's come back with a couple of things. It is my business. So expect me to sell. Would you not have benefited from being able to invest more in product, more in design, more in building out a content team? If the business had had more cash, you could have built much more sophisticated product growth and content teams.

A The only thing I know is once we started making a lot of profits, uh, before we acquired another business. So we had like, uh, some cash in the bank that we use for M&A, but we use it like for a different purpose. If we, we, we started spending more on hiring. And I remember in, uh, in six months at the time, we, we doubled the team almost. Uh, and we were like, uh, maybe like from 30 to 60 people. I realized how bad hiring could really kill your company. And for me, you know, I, I have this feeling where sometimes when you feel the pressure to hire more, to spend faster, et cetera, if you're not, um, skilled enough, it's gonna be like really, really bad for your company and it can kill it. And in full transparency, I wasn't good enough at hiring at the time for me to be able to handle like, uh, a fundraising.

AI assessment note: “I wasn't good enough at hiring at the time for me to be able”

Q I love you. You're the most good looking boy ever. Well done. Um, we spoke about you posting, building a brand. You have team members with thousands and thousands of followers. Most people would be a little bit worried that they are building credibility to leverage into other jobs to start their own companies. How do you feel about this?

A I think this is like, uh, a two sided problem. One people who worry about it usually have trust issue. You know, it's, it's the same thing that, uh, if they date someone that is like, uh, a higher number than they are, uh, that they're going to say, oh, she's going to dump me or whatever. Like this is a trust issue. It's not something, you know, like, uh, you can deal with unless you go to a therapist and you start working on it. But the, the reason why people leave a company, you know, it's usually like, uh, not because, uh, they just get like a better salary elsewhere, you know, like it's a, it's multitude of different factors and your role as a founder is to make sure that the person in your team are maximizing their potential, learning new things, uh, and also are in the right place. And sometimes the right place means that they need to be elsewhere and in another company, and you should always cheer for them when they decide to move on. Uh, and then the second thing is like, uh, maybe they're leveraging like your company to build a brand and then like, uh, do something else. Yes. But why is that a problem? Because while they are building like their brands, uh, they bring also a lot of like positive, um, you know, like a lot of leads to the business, uh, right now, like, just to give you an example, we reach about like, ten million people every quarter on LinkedIn without s…

AI assessment note: “I'm happy that I have trained everyone in the team to build a personal brand.”

Q I believe that entrepreneurs who are fit and healthy make better entrepreneurs because they are disciplined and they are able to be consistent and they can control their mind even when they don't want to do something. Do you agree with me?

A I want to say yes, because like I'm an entrepreneur, we do a lot of sports. I think like endurance training and, uh, And, uh, and entrepreneurship has a lot of things in common, uh, because as you said, you know, it's like, it's a mind game, you know, like endurance. It's, uh, from the Latin, I think like indurare, which is like, uh, hardened, uh, and I think this is what happens. You know, it's like, uh, you, you get harder and harder as you train, uh, because you have all these battles with your mind telling you, you know, that, uh, you can't do more, that you should stop. That, uh, it's not, uh, worth continuing. And this discussions I have with my brain when I trained for, uh, many hours are exactly the ones that I had back in the days when I had failed like, uh, two businesses before Lemlist. I had like no money left. My girlfriend at the time was paying the rent. We were living in like, 28 meters square. Uh, it was really like, uh, yeah, shitty environment. And everyone was telling me like, uh, why don't you take a real job? Like, why don't you? And, and this conversation, you know, I had them with myself also, like, uh, why? I mean, I should stop. I should do something else. I should. And then, you know, it's about like, how do you find the strengths and the discipline to just, uh, work on something step by step, look for your progress and, uh, and, and just focus on tha…

AI assessment note: “I want to say yes, because like I'm an entrepreneur, we do a lot of sports.”

Q Okay. So now with the benefit of hindsight, dude, you can look back and go, oh, these were the fuck ups that I made. When you look back at the first zero to 250 K, that April to April, what are you like? Oh, we fucked up on that.

A Uh, yeah. One is, is really like something, um, it was quite harsh, but there are also some funny parts in it. Um, eventually, you know, I was really looking at how many visitors do we have? How many like, um, customer are activated from the signups, uh, and, uh, how many are paying? So activation for us, it's basically like that one metric that you try to find in your software. That's going to tell you whether or not people see the value Of what you've built. So for us activation rate was how many people who signed up actually launched the sales prospecting campaign. And that number was like really crap at first. It was like something like. So I tried to interview people, but it was super hard because once people are unhappy with your product in self-service, obviously they don't want to talk to you. So, so I was like, okay, trying to search. And eventually I was like, We need to read redesign entirely the product. So we decided to redesign from scratch, uh, the entire flow to create, to creating like campaign. And, uh, I remember pushing, uh, the, the new, the new project, like, uh, in production, like it was a Friday night and I woke up Saturday and on the community we had, there were like so many people like swearing at us, like the support, it was insane. The amount of messages. And people hated it. They hated the new interface. A lot of stuff were missing, et cetera. So i…

AI assessment note: “We decided to redesign from scratch... I remember pushing... like it was a Friday night”

Q I believe that entrepreneurs who are fit and healthy make better entrepreneurs because they are disciplined and they are able to be consistent and they can control their mind even when they don't want to do something. Do you agree with me?

A I want to say yes, because like I'm an entrepreneur, we do a lot of sports. I think like endurance training and, uh, And, uh, and entrepreneurship has a lot of things in common, uh, because as you said, you know, it's like, it's a mind game, you know, like endurance. It's, uh, from the Latin, I think like indurare, which is like, uh, hardened, uh, and I think this is what happens. You know, it's like, uh, you, you get harder and harder as you train, uh, because you have all these battles with your mind telling you, you know, that, uh, you can't do more, that you should stop. That, uh, it's not, uh, worth continuing. And this discussions I have with my brain when I trained for, uh, many hours are exactly the ones that I had back in the days when I had failed like, uh, two businesses before Lemlist. I had like no money left. My girlfriend at the time was paying the rent. We were living in like, 28 meters square. Uh, it was really like, uh, yeah, shitty environment. And everyone was telling me like, uh, why don't you take a real job? Like, why don't you? And, and this conversation, you know, I had them with myself also, like, uh, why? I mean, I should stop. I should do something else. I should. And then, you know, it's about like, how do you find the strengths and the discipline to just, uh, work on something step by step, look for your progress and, uh, and, and just focus on tha…

AI assessment note: “I want to say yes, because like I'm an entrepreneur, we do a lot of sports.”

Q What did you change to take activation from 10 to 40%?

A Yes, so essentially, like, uh, initially the way it was built, you had to create, like, uh, different templates, you had to create a list, you had to create, like, a lot of different things in different areas, and once you had created everything, then you had to combine Everything into a campaign. But if you wanted to create a campaign and had not creating anything before, you couldn't. And that's why people were pissed off because they did not understand that you had to be like a, it w it was basically kind of like an engineer product, you know, like a first you build all the building blocks and you are very well structured and this is, and then later on you combine it, you make tests and it's much easier for you to do it. But in reality, people, they want, you know, like you should take them by the hand and say, this is step one, then this is step Step two, this is logical and step three and so on and so forth. So that's what we did. We entirely rebuilt the campaign creation, making it like much easier for people to go from A to Z, and it changed pretty much everything at that time.

AI assessment note: “We entirely rebuilt the campaign creation, making it like much easier”

Q Your strategy around content is still relatively novel for founders. How do you respond to founders who say, listen, Guillaume, I love what you do, but I'm just, I'm not That interpersonal brand. That's just not me. How do you respond to them?

A More, more room for us. No, in, in full transparency, it's like, um, putting yourself out there and creating content. Will help your business a hundred percent. It will help your business because it will help you build trust with more trust. It means slower sales, like faster sales cycle, uh, more leads and more revenue down the line. As a founder, it's also a great way, you know, to, uh, meet a lot of interesting people because the truth is they are Millions of businesses who have great stories to tell, but you've never heard about them because they don't document anything. They don't write anything. And when these businesses reach out, You're like, who are you? And I think like content is the easiest way to show, Hey, this is what I'm doing. If you think that I'm interesting, if you think that I'm someone worth talking after you watch my, my, my videos or my content, then let's chat. And, and this is the easiest way to have like a window at someone's brain. And right now I don't say that like to brag or anything, but when I, Do like a sales prospecting or when I just like outbound someone for, uh, an intro for a message for just a networking call. The reply rate is huge, which means that every single year I'm meeting like smarter, uh, and more interesting people and, and so on and so forth, which helps me grow, which helps me become like a better version of myself. And this i…

AI assessment note: “putting yourself out there and creating content. Will help your business a hundred percent.”

Q Can I ask, what's your biggest lessons on pricing in competitive markets? You've mentioned before about Bluntly being in a very competitive market. How do you think about biggest lessons and reflections on pricing?

A Pricing is really hard. What I can say is overall as your product, and this is like maybe a good rule for every founder is like, as your product evolves and as you're bringing more value, your price should increase. And this is a rule that you should have. And, and I think like our growth has been, uh, has been driven also by price increase at some point. And it's, it's quite helpful. Um, so don't hide behind like, oh, until the next feature or whatever, like, Increase your price every year at least, you know, and then it's also important to see where your market is heading. You know, like we're in a phase with a lot of uncertainty. Um, I think economically also people are a bit like more strict on what do they want to spend. Um, I think a lot of people are suffering in this market, not so much because, um, their price is too high. And a lot of people are saying that, but I don't think it's the case. I just believe it's that people are realizing that if they're not using a tool, they shouldn't pay for it. And if you look at like the amount of enterprise accounts, we've been sold onto 1500, uh, license or user or seats or however you want to call it. And actually only like 15 people are using it. Yes. It's normal that the CFO comes in and say, maybe we shouldn't pay, you know, that price, you know, like, so So, so for pricing, I would do like two aspects. One, it's like increase…

AI assessment note: “for pricing, I would do like two aspects. One, it's like increased price regularly.”

Q Dude, I totally get it. My question to you then is like, I totally see your superpowers of content, of inspiration, of motivation. Uh, we mentioned the media flywheel earlier. When you think about content creation, obviously it's my business too. How do you think about the creation process for you? Do you have a framework around idea, thought process, creation, distribution? How does that work for you?

A Yeah. I like to say, you know, like, uh, if you want inspiration, read. If you want clarity, write. So my goal is to always have an easy way to capture ideas, whether it's a recording, taking notes and all these kinds of things. And then after that, I just, uh, put all my ideas in one place and then I rank them. Uh, I, and I think an idea is, is kind of like a plant and a little seed. So before it becomes like a tree or a plant, uh, it needs time, you know, it needs like the right soil. It needs like the right condition, the right environment. So for me, like all ideas are great, are all my seeds, but sometimes, you know, like, uh, I will decide to put more focus and attention on one, and sometimes I need time to develop them. So the way I do it is, um, I would write just ideas all over the place. And sometimes I just spend time on my ideas and I start writing about them and kind of get the inspiration. And I do something that's, uh, that's typically pretty weird for, uh, for people where people like focus, but as I say, I'm Mr. Chaos. Um, let's say I want to write like a LinkedIn post. Um, whenever I'm writing like a LinkedIn post, I can write maybe like, uh, I don't know, 15 or 20 posts in an hour. Uh, and the way I'm gonna do it is I'm not gonna write one post at a time. I'm gonna write like three or four posts at the same time. So I can write one sentence for one that gives…

AI assessment note: “I'm gonna write like three or four posts at the same time”

Q Dude, I totally get it. My question to you then is like, I totally see your superpowers of content, of inspiration, of motivation. Uh, we mentioned the media flywheel earlier. When you think about content creation, obviously it's my business too. How do you think about the creation process for you? Do you have a framework around idea, thought process, creation, distribution? How does that work for you?

A Yeah. I like to say, you know, like, uh, if you want inspiration, read. If you want clarity, write. So my goal is to always have an easy way to capture ideas, whether it's a recording, taking notes and all these kinds of things. And then after that, I just, uh, put all my ideas in one place and then I rank them. Uh, I, and I think an idea is, is kind of like a plant and a little seed. So before it becomes like a tree or a plant, uh, it needs time, you know, it needs like the right soil. It needs like the right condition, the right environment. So for me, like all ideas are great, are all my seeds, but sometimes, you know, like, uh, I will decide to put more focus and attention on one, and sometimes I need time to develop them. So the way I do it is, um, I would write just ideas all over the place. And sometimes I just spend time on my ideas and I start writing about them and kind of get the inspiration. And I do something that's, uh, that's typically pretty weird for, uh, for people where people like focus, but as I say, I'm Mr. Chaos. Um, let's say I want to write like a LinkedIn post. Um, whenever I'm writing like a LinkedIn post, I can write maybe like, uh, I don't know, 15 or 20 posts in an hour. Uh, and the way I'm gonna do it is I'm not gonna write one post at a time. I'm gonna write like three or four posts at the same time. So I can write one sentence for one that gives…

AI assessment note: “my goal is to always have an easy way to capture ideas”

Q Absolutely insane. If you could be CEO of any other company for a day, what company would you be CEO of?

A Like most people, I think I would say like open AI, just so I know like what they're cooking at the moment, like, uh, where they at in terms of like new models, uh, knowing like, uh, I would go there and I would say, okay, like what's actual, what's the actual plan that Sam told you? Because this guy is like, so like, I don't trust him like a second. He's been changing his mind. Like so many times is such a, like, you know, like he came to the Senate and started saying like, uh, I don't make money out of open AI. I've made enough money in the past. This is a nonprofit. And then like, just after it's like, now it's for profit. Actually, you were paid by Microsoft in the meantime, where you were like CEO, but through like another company structure. And now your entire team is gone out of nowhere because they tried to fire you. So it's like, there are some shits happening there and I want to know like, uh, what's happening. I want to know the truth.

AI assessment note: “I think I would say like open AI, just so I know”

Q Can I ask, what's your biggest lessons on pricing in competitive markets? You've mentioned before about Bluntly being in a very competitive market. How do you think about biggest lessons and reflections on pricing?

A Pricing is really hard. What I can say is overall as your product, and this is like maybe a good rule for every founder is like, as your product evolves and as you're bringing more value, your price should increase. And this is a rule that you should have. And, and I think like our growth has been, uh, has been driven also by price increase at some point. And it's, it's quite helpful. Um, so don't hide behind like, oh, until the next feature or whatever, like, Increase your price every year at least, you know, and then it's also important to see where your market is heading. You know, like we're in a phase with a lot of uncertainty. Um, I think economically also people are a bit like more strict on what do they want to spend. Um, I think a lot of people are suffering in this market, not so much because, um, their price is too high. And a lot of people are saying that, but I don't think it's the case. I just believe it's that people are realizing that if they're not using a tool, they shouldn't pay for it. And if you look at like the amount of enterprise accounts, we've been sold onto 1500, uh, license or user or seats or however you want to call it. And actually only like 15 people are using it. Yes. It's normal that the CFO comes in and say, maybe we shouldn't pay, you know, that price, you know, like, so So, so for pricing, I would do like two aspects. One, it's like increase…

AI assessment note: “as your product evolves and as you're bringing more value, your price should increase.”

Q It's a lot more. So at this point, are we having VCs just massively inbound as trying to give us money?

A I always receive because the thing is like, I've been building in public since day one. So I share like revenue metrics, et cetera. And obviously that attracts Yes, some investors. Um, but when you're high in, uh, in EBITDA, like, uh, I had to learn about what secondary meant and what cash out meant, because for me at the time, the only thing I saw was like fundraising, meaning you take money, uh, and you put it in your company's bank account, and then you spend it to hire more people, et cetera. But I felt like it was not the solution for us. I don't think that hiring more Is always the answer to growing faster. And, uh, and actually I think sometimes it's the opposite. I've seen too many times, you know, like, uh, you hire too quickly, you hire the wrong people. Uh, you can't keep like a high level, you know, like, uh, and, and a high talent density and eventually like, uh, it's, uh, but in some cases it's, it's really helpful, but in our case, I just felt it wasn't, uh, the right timing. So I had another investor approaching us. And talking about cash out and secondary. And in that end, I was like, okay, tell me more. And, uh, it's basically when the money goes directly to the founder. Uh, and I think this is really awesome.

AI assessment note: “I've been building in public since day one. So... obviously that attracts Yes, some investors.”

Q What have been your biggest lessons on hiring then? Like bluntly, it's the hardest thing a founder will do, but given that assessment, what are your biggest lessons?

A Few lessons. Uh, one. I think you should hire people who have done it already. That's like literally like, cause bootstrap mindset, you know, it, it gives kind of the underdog vibe. So from the start, I kept this underdog mindset. Like I'm going to only find underdogs, the talent that no one knew they existed. And I'm going to show them that we're the Avengers. And we're going to like, you know, like be the fucking rock stars, uh, with, uh, no resume, no schools, like a lot of grit, a lot of talent. And That works to a certain extent, but when you really want to scale your, your company and scale it like faster, having people who have done it in other companies, who have seen what rapid scale is, is really, really helpful. Second thing, pay people And create a package where people are extremely well-paid for their, you know, like their role, et cetera. And the reason you should do it is because hiring is extremely emotional. You know, like, uh, you get attached to people, you get, you know, like you have, uh, it's, it's something that, uh, everyone, you know, wants like scorecard and try to make it as an engineer, like, okay, how many points do they have for this skill, et cetera. This is bullshit. Like, Hiring, you know, it's like, uh, you should, you know, like it's, it's the same, you know, at school we teach you that there are only like five, uh, five cents, you know, it's …

AI assessment note: “I think you should hire people who have done it already.”

Q How did your mindset change getting ten million in cash? I come from a family of no money. Getting ten million in cash is a lot of money.

A Yeah, it's It's crazy to be honest. Like, uh, I was feeling so grateful, like, about it because it's, uh, for me money, you know, it's like, uh, it has always been like a stress, like lacking of money and this kind of thing. It's, it's something that, uh, The fear of lacking of money is something I realized that will never go away, uh, just because it's so deep, you know, in the, into like, uh, how I rise raised, like looking at every, every item price in the supermarket, uh, not going on holiday with my parents, like this kind of things. But what I realized is like, uh, money can buy like freedom and freedom is what I like the most. So I'm not someone, you know, who spends like a crazy amount of monies on Lamborghini, et cetera. I love the simple things. Like I love to go hiking with a tent on holiday. Like this is my kind of vibe. Uh, but, uh, having the freedom to, uh, do whatever I want, go whenever, wherever I want, et cetera, this is like a priceless, but the, the, I think the, the best thing, you know, it's like, um, one, when you get that much money, you realize that if you're not totally dumb, uh, that money can help you like live your entire life without ever working again. Which kind of like, um, gave me more ambitious, you know, like it's, uh, now that I've done this, I feel like I can do something much bigger. I can take like bigger risk and I can be more ambitious…

AI assessment note: “I feel like I can do something much bigger. I can take like bigger risk”

Q Absolutely insane. If you could be CEO of any other company for a day, what company would you be CEO of?

A Like most people, I think I would say like open AI, just so I know like what they're cooking at the moment, like, uh, where they at in terms of like new models, uh, knowing like, uh, I would go there and I would say, okay, like what's actual, what's the actual plan that Sam told you? Because this guy is like, so like, I don't trust him like a second. He's been changing his mind. Like so many times is such a, like, you know, like he came to the Senate and started saying like, uh, I don't make money out of open AI. I've made enough money in the past. This is a nonprofit. And then like, just after it's like, now it's for profit. Actually, you were paid by Microsoft in the meantime, where you were like CEO, but through like another company structure. And now your entire team is gone out of nowhere because they tried to fire you. So it's like, there are some shits happening there and I want to know like, uh, what's happening. I want to know the truth.

AI assessment note: “I think I would say like open AI, just so I know”

Q It's a lot more. So at this point, are we having VCs just massively inbound as trying to give us money?

A I always receive because the thing is like, I've been building in public since day one. So I share like revenue metrics, et cetera. And obviously that attracts Yes, some investors. Um, but when you're high in, uh, in EBITDA, like, uh, I had to learn about what secondary meant and what cash out meant, because for me at the time, the only thing I saw was like fundraising, meaning you take money, uh, and you put it in your company's bank account, and then you spend it to hire more people, et cetera. But I felt like it was not the solution for us. I don't think that hiring more Is always the answer to growing faster. And, uh, and actually I think sometimes it's the opposite. I've seen too many times, you know, like, uh, you hire too quickly, you hire the wrong people. Uh, you can't keep like a high level, you know, like, uh, and, and a high talent density and eventually like, uh, it's, uh, but in some cases it's, it's really helpful, but in our case, I just felt it wasn't, uh, the right timing. So I had another investor approaching us. And talking about cash out and secondary. And in that end, I was like, okay, tell me more. And, uh, it's basically when the money goes directly to the founder. Uh, and I think this is really awesome.

AI assessment note: “I always receive because... I share like revenue metrics, et cetera. And obviously that attracts”

Q I want to go back to the early sales days there when you were selling and you were, as you said, they're doing 300 demos, a hundred convert. What do you think are the biggest mistakes that founders make in the zero to one phase when it comes to creating that first sales playbook?

A I think people are afraid to do sales prospecting. Like they are afraid, you know, to put themselves out there. They're afraid to sell. So I think like the, the biggest mistake is, uh, one being afraid, like, uh, that you're not going to sell being afraid that, uh, your product is not ready. You know, like it's a, there is always this thing. And for me, it was the same, you know, like when, uh, when you have to sell something that is obviously like not as good as competition, cause they've been working on it for like five years, you know, like, so. So it's how do you find that unique selling point that's going to make the conversion easier? And I think it's kind of like, uh, it requires like a lot of trial and errors because you're going to believe that people are buying your product for X, Y, or Z, but in the end it can be something totally different. So I think like people are by definition, afraid of rejection and what they love is to kind of like hide behind Processes behind, we have this product roadmap behind, like we're doing this and this, but I think the biggest mistake is not trying to sell. And if, if someone is not paying, whether your product is ready or not, if they're not paying, it means that something is wrong. It means that the problem is not painful enough and that you should like, uh, continue digging, continue talking to them to understand what is the main …

AI assessment note: “I think the biggest mistake is not trying to sell.”

Q What have been your biggest lessons on hiring then? Like bluntly, it's the hardest thing a founder will do, but given that assessment, what are your biggest lessons?

A Few lessons. Uh, one. I think you should hire people who have done it already. That's like literally like, cause bootstrap mindset, you know, it, it gives kind of the underdog vibe. So from the start, I kept this underdog mindset. Like I'm going to only find underdogs, the talent that no one knew they existed. And I'm going to show them that we're the Avengers. And we're going to like, you know, like be the fucking rock stars, uh, with, uh, no resume, no schools, like a lot of grit, a lot of talent. And That works to a certain extent, but when you really want to scale your, your company and scale it like faster, having people who have done it in other companies, who have seen what rapid scale is, is really, really helpful. Second thing, pay people And create a package where people are extremely well-paid for their, you know, like their role, et cetera. And the reason you should do it is because hiring is extremely emotional. You know, like, uh, you get attached to people, you get, you know, like you have, uh, it's, it's something that, uh, everyone, you know, wants like scorecard and try to make it as an engineer, like, okay, how many points do they have for this skill, et cetera. This is bullshit. Like, Hiring, you know, it's like, uh, you should, you know, like it's, it's the same, you know, at school we teach you that there are only like five, uh, five cents, you know, it's …

AI assessment note: “Few lessons. Uh, one. I think you should hire people who have done it already.”

Q That's when you reflect on what you've given up for work, everyone always says, are you happy with the trade-off you've made? I, I, How do you feel about that?

A I am really happy in my life. Like, um, I feel like I have an intentional life. I feel like, um, I've been forced to ask myself questions about life that, uh, few people, uh, are forced to ask themselves because, uh, I think we still live in a world where, uh, money is kind of like, uh, chains to freedom because, uh, you have to work, you have to, uh, Make money, you know, to, uh, I don't know, just live simply. Uh, and, uh, and I broke this change, you know, when I kind of like became, uh, financially independent, uh, and took like a lot of cash. But at that time, you know, you ask yourself like, um, what's the meaning of life? What's your mission? What are you put on earth? And you go more towards like spirituality. Uh, and, uh, and it's, um, it's something, you know, that, uh, I struggled with. I was, you know, asking myself like, um, Why do I do what I do? Do I really love it? Am I in the right place? Et cetera. And, uh, and I think like, uh, when I reflected on, on everything, I feel like, uh, I'm, I'm so intentional about my life that I really love it. And I really love it. You know, it's like, I work with a team I love. Uh, I'm always learning new things, which I think is super important. Um, I take care of my body and my health. I have like really good friends. Um, what's missing is like, uh, the love of my life and a family, but, uh, it's, uh, it's, uh, something I'm, …

AI assessment note: “I am really happy in my life.”

Q I want to go back to the early sales days there when you were selling and you were, as you said, they're doing 300 demos, a hundred convert. What do you think are the biggest mistakes that founders make in the zero to one phase when it comes to creating that first sales playbook?

A I think people are afraid to do sales prospecting. Like they are afraid, you know, to put themselves out there. They're afraid to sell. So I think like the, the biggest mistake is, uh, one being afraid, like, uh, that you're not going to sell being afraid that, uh, your product is not ready. You know, like it's a, there is always this thing. And for me, it was the same, you know, like when, uh, when you have to sell something that is obviously like not as good as competition, cause they've been working on it for like five years, you know, like, so. So it's how do you find that unique selling point that's going to make the conversion easier? And I think it's kind of like, uh, it requires like a lot of trial and errors because you're going to believe that people are buying your product for X, Y, or Z, but in the end it can be something totally different. So I think like people are by definition, afraid of rejection and what they love is to kind of like hide behind Processes behind, we have this product roadmap behind, like we're doing this and this, but I think the biggest mistake is not trying to sell. And if, if someone is not paying, whether your product is ready or not, if they're not paying, it means that something is wrong. It means that the problem is not painful enough and that you should like, uh, continue digging, continue talking to them to understand what is the main …

AI assessment note: “I think the biggest mistake is not trying to sell.”