The Exchanges

Q You mentioned earlier New Balance. It's an interesting brand because, I mean, New Balance was the most uncool, unpopular brand years ago, respectfully. They were in peaks and troughs, and now they've had an amazing resurgence. How do you think about and analyze that?

A I think they anticipated really well, and they went to a playbook that was unexpected. I mean, when the five-fifty came, no one thought that anyone needs another basketball shoe. And it was just air force ones. They were able to create that with a bit of an outsider mentality and people wore it for a while with what they did with, uh, with Teddy's, Teddy's brand, Emilion Doré, right? Same thing. Yeah, now it's, it's tough, um, because how do you replicate it without just doing more and more and more? But what they, I think, did incredibly well is that they understood better than others that in that space, it's not necessarily a global market anymore. They were much more hyperlocal, even though it was big, but it felt very local to the right communities at the right time. They did that exceptionally well.

AI assessment note: “I think they anticipated really well, and they went to a playbook that was unexpected.”

Q When did you listen to customers when you shouldn't have done? And on reflection, what did you learn?

A We probably listened to customers when it comes to the space that exists between sports and lifestyle too much. So a lot of customers have a strong belief that there is a world in whatever we want to call it hybrids, where you can use them for sports. You can also use them for lifestyle. And there's this persona probably that is a. 20 10 persona that. Lives in New York, goes to the gym and then goes and gets their latte and wears the same outfit. Not sure that really still exists or has ever existed in the way that that's been described and that it makes sense to have a product that does function and style equally well. I think you have a customer that will go for the most performing running product because of style. I think you will have people who just purely will go for style and not really care about the performance, but that I want something that really works and yet still looks good, somehow still works or still looks good. That middle ground, I think that was not the smartest place to operate in.

AI assessment note: “We probably listened to customers when it comes to the space that exists between sports and lifestyle”

Q When you think about falling in love with the product, is that what you mean when you talk about the relationship value with the consumer that you think products should create?

A Yeah, because it's impossible to engineer, because we're all different. How do you stimulate curiosity? Why do you create the button on a gaming console that makes the sound? There's no rationale for that, but it triggers something that you can own and that stimulates you in a positive or negative way, but it creates some kind of emotion. And I think the more you go into commodity product and footwear, I think to some extent is that because we all need to wear shoes every day, the harder it gets, but also the more exciting it is because that's, that's then the true challenge to engineer something where. You touch it, you step into it, and you're like, huh, okay, there's even a bit more than what I expected. It's not just the color I choose, but there's something more behind it. That's what we're trying to engineer for.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, because it's impossible to engineer, because we're all different.”

Q fact, I hate to say it, they're not moving very much at all. Go to a Knightsbridge cafe and you'll see a lot of on, but not much running. There's people who are not power users, and there are people who are supreme power users who run a lot and who really stress test them. How do you think about that product balance of selling to both without alienating either?

A I personally love that bipolarity. You probably also have a MacBook Pro in front of you, and you have absolutely no clue of the power the machine actually has and could be used for. And aspiration is one, but then it's also It's good to have great product, even though you don't use it at its full extent. I don't see any negative to that. Anyone should go and get the greatest cashmere out there. If they fancy cashmere, they probably don't need it to stay warm. We really strive for the factors that are not just always straightforward, which is not just style and aesthetics, but it is also to some extent a view on how product ages, What durability means, how colors play with each other's and how it gives you an opportunity to also differentiate yourselves in your everyday lives. So running and coming from running and having run culture as a base is just a great starting point because we simply can't fuck up. You cannot give people a product that they cannot do their half marathon in. And then, yes, we have the reddits where we'll have long debates. Because I mean, this year we launched a four hour marathon shoe. If I would ever run a marathon in below four hours, I would probably be dead. So, so there is an audience who needs different kinds of shoes, but the hardcore audience thinks that everything needs to be obviously as tailored to the fastest and most performant, but, but we'…

AI assessment note: “I personally love that bipolarity. You probably also have a MacBook Pro”

Q Which was the best product that you've made that didn't do as well as you thought?

A I think we have created our very first collaboration with Loewe, the Spanish luxury house. We have created a, I would probably say dog walking trail runner. So we changed our core trail running show at the time, which was called Cloud Venture. And together with Jonathan Anderson, the person I mentioned in the very beginning, he came back from Japan and brought some, some, some samples of some shibbery Towels, right? The denim fade stuff, and the factories really didn't get it, but we replicated that on a canvas and then created, I think, an incredibly beautiful product that, that I truly love. Obviously very early to do very expensive running sneakers at that point, because that was pre whatever New Balance Miu Miu and all of that. It did okay, but I think if I look at that product now, It's one of those, those things, you know, where Pursuit of Elegance, sort of my, it's an old book, but it's that, it's 90% perfect, and then you leave the rest to the consumer.

AI assessment note: “our very first collaboration with Loewe... It did okay”

Q What was the most controversial product that you've released in the last few years, and how do you reflect on that?

A Well, This year I definitely would say it's that slow marathon running product that rightfully so probably the community didn't get, because if you have that ambition, why would you want to wear a shoe for the slower runner? Even if you are that there's a lot of health regions and you just talked about your knees, but that was not thoroughly thought through from a consumer mindset. If you go into that marathon buildup. Other than that, I think Light Sprays is just, her latest innovation is, is just a very interesting piece of an innovation platform that we're building out. It can be seen as controversial because you make a shoe in three minutes and you don't need any humans, but I think the runway of that is going to be very interesting to watch.

AI assessment note: “This year I definitely would say it's that slow marathon running product”

Q No, no, I, I, I get that. Guys, fascinating. We, we said about Asics being like great product, but maybe slightly confused brand in, in certain respects. Do you agree, build great product and they will come? The kind of often said moniker.

A I wish, I also wish we would be a good example for that, but we have a fantastic brand and marketing department who does an incredible job also of bringing Elmo on board to say that we launched an extremely soft shoe and it's, it's probably super hard. I mean, there are stuff that I simply just love. Teenage engineering is one of those brands. I don't know if you know them. They're like Swedish consumer electronics things, quite Small day, spectacular, but you have to be really deep into it and then buy their Bluetooth speaker and you're just going to be blown away. But then they have great marketing, they have great brand, they have great product, but sometimes it just doesn't, I don't know, maybe it's the category or something else that doesn't scale or maybe you also don't want to because SoundCloud was also a good product, but we are on Spotify, right?

AI assessment note: “I wish, I also wish we would be a good example for that”

Q You said about like style and aesthetics there. It made me think of like consumer preferences, and it made me think of like, uh, the Henry Ford, if I listen to my customers, I'll build a faster horse. To what extent do you listen to customers versus show them the way in terms of right product and good product?

A We listen a lot. We don't always use everything, but we do, we do listen a lot because the company has also been growing at a, at a scale where you also need to find the right kind of balance. And we also need to become much more concise in terms of how we show up, where we show up as you, as you do this more polar opposite sort of consumers. And there's an interesting aspect that we just don't have an archive. So that means every other footwear brand will go back in history right now, early 2000 are coming. You see all the A six that have been there now slowly phasing out again. Salomon has been having a bit of harder time because the outdoor trend is not there. So now the 2000, the tech raves or whatever, whatever it's going to be, they're going to pull out back out and put on the table. If you just go sneaker. And if you don't have that, you can listen, but it's hard because you cannot pull it out of somewhere. So you need to create. And then once you're already on that, you might just don't want to create within that comfort zone and push it a bit.

AI assessment note: “We listen a lot. We don't always use everything, but we do”

Q What would you have done differently, or what are your biggest lessons on product messaging for new products when you reflect on, say, like the marathon shoe, which maybe wasn't communicated as it could have been?

A I'm not great at marketing, but I just love to have the story being told by others, even if it's unfiltered and not always what you might want to hear. But we can learn a lot from fashion there. I think you put a, you put a runaway show out and the jury's out, right? It's not, you're not going to send out a press release. Look for is the best look that we've ever made. You just don't. You let all the critics basically decide. And I think we could, we could do more of that and just, just let it out in the wild. The other part I think is, is on apparel and accessories. We, we released a fantastic line of soft bags, backpacks and, and other things. And we sourced with like one of the last Swiss rope makers, some, some real Swiss rope and all that kind of stuff. Products really there, but I don't know, we're, we're a footwear company still in many cases. So, so we had a hard time really telling that story well.

AI assessment note: “I just love to have the story being told by others, even if it's unfiltered”

Q You mentioned that we're a footwear company. Do you think every company needs to have a hero product? It's often something stated that you need to have a hero product. Do you agree with that?

A We're not a footwear company anymore. We, we very much are. I mean, apparel is, is growing at a speed that I think we unlocked something there that is going to be very interesting. But answering your question, probably no, not anymore. I think that used to be the case, but if I think about how people shop these days, who they listen to and, and, and also where their share of wallet goes, I'm not sure. I think it's just a lot of things are changing. If you look at beauty as well, like we probably had three choices for a, for a, how do you call a lip balm? And where did you buy that? Probably at a pharmacy or, or whatever. Now there's probably 600 with all different Flavors. Even smoking has diversified to a level where I'm like, okay, is there a hero Marlboro product these days? I don't even know.

AI assessment note: “answering your question, probably no, not anymore.”

Q Alleman pretty well at this stage, so I should ask him this as well, but I don't get the tennis strategy. If I think about like market size and the size of Onn today being the multi-billion dollar public companies today, if you crush tennis, It's just not a needle mover for the business, I don't think, from a pure market size perspective. How does market size impact product direction?

A It definitely does. I also think we need to look at tennis more holistically in terms of Roger as an entrepreneur, him having a badge, being in with the product teams every two weeks, and what we build as an overall company. And how you grow from sort of an international now towards a global company and who you also want to be and who you want to have close. With tennis or with Roger specifically, I think it's also friends of friends. I think that has an incredible power and that has created an athlete mindset for us that strives for excellence. And tennis might not be the last thing we do, but it's been an incredibly Important territory to move a brand beyond running, rooted in something that is sports, and at the same time have clarity on we can be more than just a running brand.

AI assessment note: “It definitely does. I also think we need to look at tennis more holistically”

Q You take less risk. How do you take less risk with a disturbing UX?

A Because you can iterate very, very rapidly. I think the moment I switched from non-physical to physical product, I had to completely relearn that. Once it's in your hands, I cannot change it. I cannot touch it. I cannot Just send you another pair of laces in the morning. Why do you choose the pair of shoes you choose? Is it just because you're too lazy to actually tie them up or because the leather you would need to polish or whatever? I cannot change it. I cannot influence it anymore. You let it go way earlier. Whereas if you do a, I don't know, a homepage on bing.com, you might want to hide something and then some people find out, and then you can actually emphasize And you have an echo chamber you can work with where when you do physical product, once it's gone, it's gone. But your question is, it's interesting because it's often at the very start of a brief and the hardest part is to not, to not lose the thought because you start with the consumer and you start with, well, here's something where you will step into and you probably would think that it's slightly too soft, slightly too comfy for what I want to do. Or it's not enough of that. Or, oh wow, why did they do a three D logo on a shoe that will fall off tomorrow? And so it's, it's the smaller parts that have a bigger impact than the hours and days and weeks we spent with a sports science team engineering a foam so th…

AI assessment note: “Because you can iterate very, very rapidly.”