The Exchanges

Q are made in, in board meetings, and at least, you know, conveyed in board meetings. How would you describe your style of board management, Frank? Because it's a, it's a difficult one. I always feel sorry for the first time to say, how the fuck are you meant to know how to manage a board? When you think about your style of board management, How do you think about it?

A Yeah, you know, that's a topic I often talk about with with founders who are sort of new to new to that dynamic, but you haven't been around boards for a long time. By the way, I made all those mistakes myself. I was delusional as a younger man as well as to what the relationship with the board really is and what it isn't. Yeah, but the reality is a board needs to be led. Okay. I mean, I always tell people the worst thing you can possibly do is go into a board meeting and go, What do you guys think? You've just created a vacuum. Okay. And typically, you know, on the board, you got people that are, you know, I call them the old tycoons, people that used to have a big job, but now they're retired, but they still have the need to assert themselves. What do you think they're going to do? You know, they're going to, they're going to step into the vacuum and try and dominate a conversation. Now you've lost control over the conversation. So, You never go out there. What do you guys think? No, you're going to go out there and you're going to tell them what you think, you know? Um, and, and then obviously there can be debate and discussion and challenge. That's okay. But you have just filled that vacuum. Okay. And now it's a matter of, okay, uh, discussing it, vetting it, tweaking it, you know, whatever. Right. But you lead the board. You don't create a vacuum that, you know, they're no…

AI assessment note: “the reality is a board needs to be led.”

Q safety and everyone so loved and cherished, and I'm kind of like, all right, great, but let's also move with speed and let's also be deliberate. I'm worried that we're getting into this kind of too fluffy culture where everything's too nice. Do you see that too? And how do you think about that kind of new age fluffy culture compared to the hard driving execution of getting shit done?

A Yeah, I think that, that what you're describing, I am absolutely recognizing it. It's definitely something over the last, uh, I don't know what, how many years. It's just, uh, uh, it's not a culture that I subscribe to. Um, you know, I mean, it being in business is like being in professional sports. We're here to win. And, uh, you know, great performance gets embraced and, and not so great performance gets rejected and repelled. Um, we're not, we're not congratulators. Uh, we're not doing victory laps. Um, it's just not our, uh, our style. It's like, you know, when we score a touchdown, we're not going to do a celebration in the end zone. We're just not because we're supposed to score touchdowns. It's just the absurdity of, you know, of celebrating things that you're supposed to do. Um, I'm constantly reinforcing what a great job people are doing. I think that's just complete nonsense. You know, um, there is a time, you know, to recognize But it's not all day long, you know, you don't get recognized for finding the bathroom, you know, in the building. Okay. It's just the triviality and also has no meaning anymore because people get patted on the back of their return because they're feeling so insecure. Well, you know, we all feel insecure. That's new. That's a normal state, you know, embrace it, you know.

AI assessment note: “what you're describing, I am absolutely recognizing it... not a culture that I subscribe to”

Q Have you changed as a leader over time?

A Um, sure. I mean, of course you change. I mean, that, that's just, everything changes, right? Nothing, you know, nothing stays the same. You know, the, the, the advantage of having done this stuff, you know, a few times is that, you know, you're not second guessing yourself as much. You are faster to pull triggers. You're more certain that what you're seeing is exactly what you're seeing. I was a much more reasonable person when I was a younger man, you know, because I weighed the things out. I tried to help people. And then in the end, you know, I was, I was, I was reasonable, but I also, I was also wrong. That's what I learned. So now, now I'm unreasonable, but I'm right, you know, so.

AI assessment note: “You're not second guessing yourself as much. You are faster to pull triggers.”

Q are made in, in board meetings, and at least, you know, conveyed in board meetings. How would you describe your style of board management, Frank? Because it's a, it's a difficult one. I always feel sorry for the first time to say, how the fuck are you meant to know how to manage a board? When you think about your style of board management, How do you think about it?

A Yeah, you know, that's a topic I often talk about with with founders who are sort of new to new to that dynamic, but you haven't been around boards for a long time. By the way, I made all those mistakes myself. I was delusional as a younger man as well as to what the relationship with the board really is and what it isn't. Yeah, but the reality is a board needs to be led. Okay. I mean, I always tell people the worst thing you can possibly do is go into a board meeting and go, What do you guys think? You've just created a vacuum. Okay. And typically, you know, on the board, you got people that are, you know, I call them the old tycoons, people that used to have a big job, but now they're retired, but they still have the need to assert themselves. What do you think they're going to do? You know, they're going to, they're going to step into the vacuum and try and dominate a conversation. Now you've lost control over the conversation. So, You never go out there. What do you guys think? No, you're going to go out there and you're going to tell them what you think, you know? Um, and, and then obviously there can be debate and discussion and challenge. That's okay. But you have just filled that vacuum. Okay. And now it's a matter of, okay, uh, discussing it, vetting it, tweaking it, you know, whatever. Right. But you lead the board. You don't create a vacuum that, you know, they're no…

AI assessment note: “the reality is a board needs to be led”

Q When you, when you peel back the layers, talk to me about calibration sessions. You write about this in Amp It Up, and I love this part. How do you think about calibration sessions? What are they? How do you structure them? Who comes? Tell me more.

A Well, I mean, we do, uh, we, we don't do, uh, MBOs. For example, I've killed off MBOs in every company I've ever been in. If they had them, um, that's an easy call. I don't want people running their own show. I mean, if, if I got to pull them off a project, they start negotiating with me for relief. I mean, it's the biggest bunch of bull I've ever seen. Uh, people are not running their own show. Okay. We're, we're all part of the same show here. So, um, but we also don't do performance reviews. So there's another thing we don't do. Um, written performance reviews end up being used against you, you know, it's like a legal trap. So what we do instead is, um, you know, we have a quarterly, um, you know, performance compensation, uh, model, uh, if you will. And what it means is that everybody who is not in sales, because salespeople are on commissions, uh, plans, of course, but everybody who is not in sales gets a conversation, a money conversation and a performance conversation every single quarter. And the way we do it is, uh, you know, the company first needs to earn the, the bonus money. So we have the company goals. They get communicated, communicated. Everybody knows what they are. And based on our performance there, we fund The, the bonus pool for the entire company. Then, We take that money, and we start allocating it to the management ranks. These managers gets their amoun…

AI assessment note: “These managers gets their amount of money... That's the calibration process.”

Q compensatory levers to single out the best. I spoke to Karl Ashenbach and Doug before the show, and they said that Frank is simply the best leader when it comes to getting the best performance out of team members in particular. What do you think you do for getting the money side to get the best out of people in a way that bluntly very, very few other leaders can?

A Well, we, we have a very, ah, empowering style. What that means is we really want to turn them loose. You know, I mean, one of the biggest frustrations, ah, early on in my career, and I talk about that in the book, by the way, Is that, you know, I was always on a, on a short leash. I don't belong on the short leash. A person like me should not be on the short leash, but I was because that's just the stage mentality and culture of the times, right? And it's not an accident that my career took off once I got my first CEO job, because now I have my hands free. I was off the lease, you know, and I was running wild. Okay. But, um, and by the way, that, that, That went off for a long period of time. Okay, I didn't get my first CEO to have until it was like, whatever, 43. So I lived a long time, you know, on the short leash, and I find that incredibly debilitating for, for good people, right? So good people, I have this very strong reflex when I have good people, I am going to turn them loose, and I'm going to give them everything that they are asking for. They will be held to account. I'm going to give it all right. So great people, you know, they're going to do great in that kind of an environment empowerment is the most intoxicating thing you can possibly do to people, you know, and that the good people, you know, who really want to run hard, you know. So I, I just eliminate all th…

AI assessment note: “we have a very, ah, empowering style. What that means is we really want to turn them loose.”

Q safety and everyone so loved and cherished, and I'm kind of like, all right, great, but let's also move with speed and let's also be deliberate. I'm worried that we're getting into this kind of too fluffy culture where everything's too nice. Do you see that too? And how do you think about that kind of new age fluffy culture compared to the hard driving execution of getting shit done?

A Yeah, I think that, that what you're describing, I am absolutely recognizing it. It's definitely something over the last, uh, I don't know what, how many years. It's just, uh, uh, it's not a culture that I subscribe to. Um, you know, I mean, it being in business is like being in professional sports. We're here to win. And, uh, you know, great performance gets embraced and, and not so great performance gets rejected and repelled. Um, we're not, we're not congratulators. Uh, we're not doing victory laps. Um, it's just not our, uh, our style. It's like, you know, when we score a touchdown, we're not going to do a celebration in the end zone. We're just not because we're supposed to score touchdowns. It's just the absurdity of, you know, of celebrating things that you're supposed to do. Um, I'm constantly reinforcing what a great job people are doing. I think that's just complete nonsense. You know, um, there is a time, you know, to recognize But it's not all day long, you know, you don't get recognized for finding the bathroom, you know, in the building. Okay. It's just the triviality and also has no meaning anymore because people get patted on the back of their return because they're feeling so insecure. Well, you know, we all feel insecure. That's new. That's a normal state, you know, embrace it, you know.

AI assessment note: “what you're describing, I am absolutely recognizing it. It's definitely something”

Q Final question for you, Frank. How do you think about your own relationship to money? You know, you've gone from bluntly, you know, um, not having money to obviously being very successful. How do you feel about your own relationship? It's something that I struggle with.

A Well, it's good. It has completely changed. Uh, obviously in the beginning, you know, everybody has natural, uh, you know, economic insecurity, some people more than others, obviously, because I got having been on, uh, you know, having dealt with compensation for people, uh, for a long time, I've seen every flavor of that. Um, but, you know, once you sort of, you know, get a few degrees of separation from, uh, from economic hardship, um, You know, that relationship changes to the point where, you know, it's sort of a topic that is. You know, I, I look at money as just a number to me. You know, it's like math. It's like, how many comments? I mean, it's like, it has no meaning because it has no consequence on a day to day basis. You know, I mean, how many bottles of wine can you drink? You know, that, that kind of thing. So that relationship just goes away. And I also don't, don't view money as a scorekeeper. Like, oh, I got more than you do. I mean, it's, that's so not interesting to me, you know, those, those types of conversations. You know, the nice thing about, um, you know, having done this, you know, a few times is that, you know, you become, you know, more enlightened, and more balanced, and more, more thoughtful, I would say, you know, about those, those kinds of things, so.

AI assessment note: “I look at money as just a number to me.”

Q Frank, advise me. I'm on board today as board members, uh, as a board member, sorry. What can I do to be the best board member to you, the CEO, as possible, and what advice would you give younger people assuming they're early board roles?

A Yeah, you know, I, um, one of the things I, I, I do, um, when I'm acting in an advisory capacity and it could be on the board or, or, or something else. I, I try and never to prescribe to people like do this or do that. Okay. Instead, I say, here's a way to think about it. So that's much more of a, you know, you decide whether it makes sense. You try it on for size. Um, and by the way, I'm not saying this is the right way to think about it. I just said this is a way to think about it. Right? And you use that as part of your process, you know, of determining, you know, how you want to deal with the situation. Now, sometimes there are situations where I draw a hard line, some things that are so glaring, so insane, that it's, it's, it's, it's amazing that we're even having a conversation about it. But sometimes it's like, it's nuanced. And there's just like, look, Here's how I would look at it, but you decide for yourself. It doesn't matter to me whether somebody agrees with me or not, because they need to make their own decisions, not my decisions. It's there. So why would I care? I'm just giving them an input and they can use it as they see fit. But you become a good board member that way. And the reason is people will seek you out for your point of view, because they know, you know, you're not going to be pissed, you know, if they decide to do something else. Right? They will n…

AI assessment note: “you become a good board member that way. And the reason is people will seek you out”

Q Do you ever worry that discomfort or insecurity is driving decision making, which you can very easily do?

A Yeah, and it should, you know, because you should be, by the way, if you're overconfident about your decisions, you're probably an idiot. Because how do you know? You don't know. So you should be, you know, you should be very nervous and anxious about what you're doing. Obviously, you're going to acquire, you know, feedback over time whether you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing. But, you know, being overconfident is stupid. You know, you should have, you should be highly skeptical about everything constantly. So that doesn't mean that you lack conviction. You know, we're not going to sort of, you know, revisit, you know, what we're doing every single day, but we are watching, right? Are we getting the feedback that we're expecting? And if not, why not? You know, and if we do good, you know, we'll do more, you know? Um, but at the same time, you know, we, we don't have this, this sort of mindless, you know, oh, this is great. It's all going to work. No, I mean, you'll be insane. Ask any military leader, do you think they approach the battlefield that way? That'd be crazy, you know?

AI assessment note: “Yeah, and it should, you know, because you should be”

Q Let's have some fun indeed. But I want to start with a little bit from the book actually. And when we normally start, we start with some context. And you said, we all need to be careful which elevator we get into early in our career. What did you mean by this, Frank?

A Well, some elevators go up, some go down, some don't move, and you have no control over, you know, what the elevator is doing. And, uh, you know, if you joined a really good company, I mean, you have, you're in an elevator that's going up. Um, and if you joined and that's a good company, that elevator may not be moving. It doesn't matter, you know, what you did or didn't do. I mean, your individual merit is, uh, is, is irrelevant. Um, it's sort of like being a card player, you know, when you may be a really good card player or you have a bad hand at cards, you know, the outcome is going to be, you know, not that great. So it's, you, you really gotta choose carefully because your, your individual merit cannot overcome, you know, the circumstances of your choices. And, uh, you know, I, I have unfortunately lived the consequences of, of this little bit of wisdom over and over to the point where, okay, you know, um, it's pretty important that, uh, you make wise choices and not just think, oh, I'm really good. I can, you know, I can, I can will myself to, uh, you know, incredible outcomes. I had a chat with, uh, CEO of a very large software company, uh, not long ago, and he said, I can't figure you out. Do you just know how to pick them, or are you a really good CEO? And, uh, I said, hopefully a little bit of both, you know, um, because that's, those, those are the things you need.

AI assessment note: “your individual merit cannot overcome, you know, the circumstances of your choices.”

Q I absolutely love that. Well, speaking of picking them, tell me, in terms of the query, how did you come to be CEO at Snowflake, for those who don't know?

A Well, I was on the board of pure storage with, uh, with, with Mike Speiser for, uh, many years. And I, I know Mike before then as well, because, uh, the day of the day of the day, which was our first company, uh, you know, like the Sutter Hills, so it was one of our investors. So, uh, we, we would periodically, uh, get together after a board meeting and just talk about the state of affairs and what's up, what's gone, uh, you know, that kind of a thing. And we always talked about snowflake, you know, me observing from a distance, Matt, no one all that much, or, or caring because I was actually off in those days doing other stuff. Uh, but obviously Mike was very, very involved, uh, with snowflake, uh, in those days. And, you know, uh, at one point he thought, I think I joined the board and I'm like, I'm not really filled out. Let me know. Never heard anything. Um, you know, I'm not really paying attention. And then one day it's like, it was March of, uh, you know, by the way, you know, I'm, I'm not working. I'm not talking to anybody. I certainly, I'm not making noises about wanting to reenter the threat. You just out of the blue, so what would it take for you to take the helm? I think he also likes molecule terms, you know, um, you know, it's snowflake. And I was like, what? Um, I just, I just, I just was completely unprepared For that mentally or, uh, or, or otherwise. Um, but,…

AI assessment note: “out of the blue, so what would it take for you to take the helm”

Q So I love that urgency and pace. My question to you is, when you have a company now, the size and scale of Snowflake, how do you instill that same urgency and principle of urgency across such a distributed but also large workforce?

A Well, you, you, uh, you do it in every single interaction, every single message, every single meeting, um, you know, every, basically every waking moment, uh, you have to have that filter on. Can this be faster? Can this be quicker? Um, you know, I, I, I've always used this example of walking into a California DMV, which is arguably the worst servers experience on the planet. Um, There's no urgency there. That's, that's sort of the human condition played out to the absolute worst. You know, um, you can spend two hours for, uh, you know, standing in three different lines with hundreds of people just to get your driver's license renewed. How does it get that bad? Okay. Um, because nobody cares, right? So it all, it all starts with somebody has to care, you know, about the quality and the pace and the way these things happen and. There's so much room up, and that's the whole point of the book, you know, it's called Amp It Up. Why? Because there's all this room, you know, in the margin, you know, to do things faster, to do things better, to do things more effectively, and, uh, it's just free money is what they call it, you know.

AI assessment note: “you do it in every single interaction, every single message, every single meeting”

Q in the book, is the element of when there's doubt, there's no doubt. Can you talk to me about how you think about this? And I always, I always struggle on this one, honestly, Frank, because I'm like, sometimes people just need time, and you doubt them, but they just need time, and sometimes they're just shit. Sorry. Um, how do you think that when there's doubt, there's no doubt?

A You know, doubt, doubt tells you everything you need to know, okay? Because when there, that's what the saying is, when there's, it's a tiebreaker, when there's doubt, you have your, you have your answer. There should not be any doubt. That's the whole point. Right? I mean, you need to, I mean, you make decisions, there should not be any doubt. So when there is doubt, you know, you shouldn't be doing it. Right? When you're, I mean, I often have this in hiring decisions, people have doubts. Well, you have your answer. Don't hire the person that you have doubts about. Don't. Ok? And it's, it's a tiebreaker. Like, because people get confused in their minds, and they go around and around, and they, they just, they just can't get to it. Ok, fine. Let's not do it down. You know, in other words, we, we, it's, it's a tiebreaker. It's a way of thinking about breaking the tie. Um, and it's, it's, it's, it's also a safe way, because when there's doubt, there's reasons why there's doubts. We, we may want to go and examine those reasons and, and talk about it ad infinitum, or you just say, well, the hell with this. There's doubt, so we're not doing it. It's all understood. We need to have high conviction. We, we, by the way, driving towards high conviction is very important. Um, you know, when you do something, you need to have this overwhelming sense that this is the right thing, you know,…

AI assessment note: “Don't hire the person that you have doubts about.”

Q Okay, so, you know, obviously I loved Amping Up, my new favorite book. When you think about books that have had a particular impact on you, what books stand out?

A Well, there, there are many, um, you know, some from years ago, um, and then I read new books constantly as well. Actually, in terms of new books, I just, I just read Ryan Holliday's Courage is Calling, which I highly recommend to, especially to young people, because it's all about how do you muster courage, and you need courage in every walk of life, but, you know, not many people I've really thought about it, understood what that means. Um, and a lot of people back away from, from mustering courage because that's just a natural, uh, reflex. Courage is rare. Um, and I, I think you really need it, especially as a young person in business, especially if you're a CEO or entrepreneur, you need tons of it. Um, so that's why I like that book. And Ryan Holiday has written many things, by the way, that I, I, I find, uh, you know, quite inspiring. Um, and I, I think it helps people, you know, Calm themselves down and think rationally through situations. But a book I read many years ago that I still talk about is a book called The Speed of Trust by Stephen Covey. And, you know, basically trust is the core currency of any human endeavor, and it's one of those most underrated, underappreciated ideas, concepts, and currencies. And learning about trust is incredibly important because, you know, when you have trust with employees, Everything gets better in organizations. Just everything. And…

AI assessment note: “I just read Ryan Holliday's Courage is Calling, which I highly recommend”

Q What three traits would you most like your children to adopt?

A Um, well, courage would be, would be number one. Um, you know, because that's, it's very hard to, to live, uh, without it, and not many people have it, again, because they don't think about it, and they, they just sort of reflexively, you know, behave, because we all do that as, as humans. The, the second thing is, and I, I like this in, in everybody, is a, is a measure of malcontent. You know, people that, Are not satisfied, uh, with the status quo just because they always have this, this need and they always see the variance between what is and what could be. I mean, that's essentially the description of drive, ok? Drive comes from somewhere and it comes from the, the gap that exists between the status quo and, and what could, in other words, you know, it's a reason to get out of bed in the morning. You know, um, I sometimes get asked the question, You know, what, what kind of people are you trying to hire employees? Ask that question. What kind of people are we looking for? I'm looking for mal-adjusted people. People will have a chip on their shoulder. People will have something to prove. Versus people that, you know, they are so well balanced, they have to think about a reason to get out of bed. You know, I mean, so we, we like the people that have that high variance, you know, between where they are and where they, where they need to be. And, uh, that, that propulsion and …

AI assessment note: “courage would be, would be number one. Um, you know, because that's”

Q I absolutely love that. Well, speaking of picking them, tell me, in terms of the query, how did you come to be CEO at Snowflake, for those who don't know?

A Well, I was on the board of pure storage with, uh, with, with Mike Speiser for, uh, many years. And I, I know Mike before then as well, because, uh, the day of the day of the day, which was our first company, uh, you know, like the Sutter Hills, so it was one of our investors. So, uh, we, we would periodically, uh, get together after a board meeting and just talk about the state of affairs and what's up, what's gone, uh, you know, that kind of a thing. And we always talked about snowflake, you know, me observing from a distance, Matt, no one all that much, or, or caring because I was actually off in those days doing other stuff. Uh, but obviously Mike was very, very involved, uh, with snowflake, uh, in those days. And, you know, uh, at one point he thought, I think I joined the board and I'm like, I'm not really filled out. Let me know. Never heard anything. Um, you know, I'm not really paying attention. And then one day it's like, it was March of, uh, you know, by the way, you know, I'm, I'm not working. I'm not talking to anybody. I certainly, I'm not making noises about wanting to reenter the threat. You just out of the blue, so what would it take for you to take the helm? I think he also likes molecule terms, you know, um, you know, it's snowflake. And I was like, what? Um, I just, I just, I just was completely unprepared For that mentally or, uh, or, or otherwise. Um, but,…

AI assessment note: “out of the blue, so what would it take for you to take the helm?”

Q way too long for them to let the person go. That said, if it's a sales rep in enterprise sales, you could doubt me, but I could just be working on super long sales cycles, Frank, and you need to give me a bit of time here, my friend. Like, how do you balance between every relationship's got a bit of doubt? Kind of give them a bit of time.

A Look, you know, it's not so superficial that we just look at the top line results, and that tells everything, because we're going to go inspect, you know, your activity levels, you know, and, you know, in other words, we're going to find out everything, and it may well be that we're like, no, we will, we will get conviction based on the level of effort and the progress we're making and the things we're doing, that that's just fine. It's not just like, okay, You know, you're not getting to the desired outcome, and therefore it's, it's, it's, it's in the story, uh, that that's not how it is. Um, but you know, when you start peeling back to layers, and there's nothing there, then you also get to your answer, ok? Because now you, that's the explanation for the lack of results, you know?

AI assessment note: “we're going to go inspect, you know, your activity levels”

Q So I love that urgency and pace. My question to you is, when you have a company now, the size and scale of Snowflake, how do you instill that same urgency and principle of urgency across such a distributed but also large workforce?

A Well, you, you, uh, you do it in every single interaction, every single message, every single meeting, um, you know, every, basically every waking moment, uh, you have to have that filter on. Can this be faster? Can this be quicker? Um, you know, I, I, I've always used this example of walking into a California DMV, which is arguably the worst servers experience on the planet. Um, There's no urgency there. That's, that's sort of the human condition played out to the absolute worst. You know, um, you can spend two hours for, uh, you know, standing in three different lines with hundreds of people just to get your driver's license renewed. How does it get that bad? Okay. Um, because nobody cares, right? So it all, it all starts with somebody has to care, you know, about the quality and the pace and the way these things happen and. There's so much room up, and that's the whole point of the book, you know, it's called Amp It Up. Why? Because there's all this room, you know, in the margin, you know, to do things faster, to do things better, to do things more effectively, and, uh, it's just free money is what they call it, you know.

AI assessment note: “you do it in every single interaction, every single message, every single meeting”

Q I do want to also, you know, mentioning that entry into the CEO role at Snowflake, this is the third rocket ship company you've been a part of, Frank. That is abnormally accurate for a hit rate. Like, no one has done that other than you. And so when I spoke to Doug Leone, he said to me, how did he do it? What enabled you to do this simply?

A Oh, you know, I got it. I don't really know. Um, it's not something that sort of puzzles me on a daily basis. It's not a question that's on my, on my radar. Obviously, like I just said, choosing elevators wisely is kind of a big deal. Um, so, you know, because there's so many things that you can't change about the, about the circumstance, right? Um, I mean, you may be, you know, a really good operator and have all these qualities, but, uh, you know, you really have to look hard at what you've got. I didn't always have that luxury. You know, when I, when I joined Data Domain, I, I had no idea what I was getting into. I mean, there was no revenue, there were no customers, there were 15 people, you know, had two good investors, which was sort of, you know, what, what inspired me. Uh, but everything else, uh, came after that was sort of a leap in the dark. Uh, there were hundreds of companies back in those days. Um, and that, that one, you know, um, I'm actually very proud of the work we collectively did there, um, because it, it became such an outlier. Of a company, but, you know, at the time, I mean, that was far from, from obvious or clear. You could argue a snowflake was already, uh, an outlier, you know, when, when I joined, it was far easier, far more obvious to, to make that determination. Um, you know, service now was not that easy a determination either. I remember. You kn…

AI assessment note: “choosing elevators wisely is kind of a big deal.”

Q in the book, is the element of when there's doubt, there's no doubt. Can you talk to me about how you think about this? And I always, I always struggle on this one, honestly, Frank, because I'm like, sometimes people just need time, and you doubt them, but they just need time, and sometimes they're just shit. Sorry. Um, how do you think that when there's doubt, there's no doubt?

A You know, doubt, doubt tells you everything you need to know, okay? Because when there, that's what the saying is, when there's, it's a tiebreaker, when there's doubt, you have your, you have your answer. There should not be any doubt. That's the whole point. Right? I mean, you need to, I mean, you make decisions, there should not be any doubt. So when there is doubt, you know, you shouldn't be doing it. Right? When you're, I mean, I often have this in hiring decisions, people have doubts. Well, you have your answer. Don't hire the person that you have doubts about. Don't. Ok? And it's, it's a tiebreaker. Like, because people get confused in their minds, and they go around and around, and they, they just, they just can't get to it. Ok, fine. Let's not do it down. You know, in other words, we, we, it's, it's a tiebreaker. It's a way of thinking about breaking the tie. Um, and it's, it's, it's, it's also a safe way, because when there's doubt, there's reasons why there's doubts. We, we may want to go and examine those reasons and, and talk about it ad infinitum, or you just say, well, the hell with this. There's doubt, so we're not doing it. It's all understood. We need to have high conviction. We, we, by the way, driving towards high conviction is very important. Um, you know, when you do something, you need to have this overwhelming sense that this is the right thing, you know,…

AI assessment note: “Don't hire the person that you have doubts about. Don't. Ok? And it's, it's a tiebreaker.”

Q way too long for them to let the person go. That said, if it's a sales rep in enterprise sales, you could doubt me, but I could just be working on super long sales cycles, Frank, and you need to give me a bit of time here, my friend. Like, how do you balance between every relationship's got a bit of doubt? Kind of give them a bit of time.

A Look, you know, it's not so superficial that we just look at the top line results, and that tells everything, because we're going to go inspect, you know, your activity levels, you know, and, you know, in other words, we're going to find out everything, and it may well be that we're like, no, we will, we will get conviction based on the level of effort and the progress we're making and the things we're doing, that that's just fine. It's not just like, okay, You know, you're not getting to the desired outcome, and therefore it's, it's, it's, it's in the story, uh, that that's not how it is. Um, but you know, when you start peeling back to layers, and there's nothing there, then you also get to your answer, ok? Because now you, that's the explanation for the lack of results, you know?

AI assessment note: “we will get conviction based on the level of effort and the progress”

Q Do you ever worry that discomfort or insecurity is driving decision making, which you can very easily do?

A Yeah, and it should, you know, because you should be, by the way, if you're overconfident about your decisions, you're probably an idiot. Because how do you know? You don't know. So you should be, you know, you should be very nervous and anxious about what you're doing. Obviously, you're going to acquire, you know, feedback over time whether you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing. But, you know, being overconfident is stupid. You know, you should have, you should be highly skeptical about everything constantly. So that doesn't mean that you lack conviction. You know, we're not going to sort of, you know, revisit, you know, what we're doing every single day, but we are watching, right? Are we getting the feedback that we're expecting? And if not, why not? You know, and if we do good, you know, we'll do more, you know? Um, but at the same time, you know, we, we don't have this, this sort of mindless, you know, oh, this is great. It's all going to work. No, I mean, you'll be insane. Ask any military leader, do you think they approach the battlefield that way? That'd be crazy, you know?

AI assessment note: “Yeah, and it should, you know, because you should be”

Q Have you changed as a leader over time?

A Um, sure. I mean, of course you change. I mean, that, that's just, everything changes, right? Nothing, you know, nothing stays the same. You know, the, the, the advantage of having done this stuff, you know, a few times is that, you know, you're not second guessing yourself as much. You are faster to pull triggers. You're more certain that what you're seeing is exactly what you're seeing. I was a much more reasonable person when I was a younger man, you know, because I weighed the things out. I tried to help people. And then in the end, you know, I was, I was, I was reasonable, but I also, I was also wrong. That's what I learned. So now, now I'm unreasonable, but I'm right, you know, so.

AI assessment note: “now I'm unreasonable, but I'm right”

Q That narrow the focus, increase the quality. What does that mean to you, and how do you think about applying it today?

A Well, the issue of focuses is that, uh, you know, we have a tendency, uh, as, as human beings to, you know, operate a mile wide and an inch deep, and it gets worse and worse over time. We pile more and more things on and we ask people what their priority is. You know, you get like 10, you know, you might as well have none, right? We have no ability, you know, to, to really think through what, what matters, what really matters, um, and what matters not at all. Um, I often for an exercise ask people, if you couldn't do anything for the rest of the year, um, what would you do and and why? Um, I'm not asking them to drop everything. Say that if you had to pick one, what would it be and why? Now, this is a really hard question because now you got to give up everything except one thing. And, uh, people have a, have a monstrous time answering, uh, that question, but it's a super important question because that's really the high leverage. Uh, if, if you get that wrong, uh, then it's, it's the intellectual laziness that we said, well, I have five priorities. The, the, the good ones are probably in there somewhere. I hope, you know, uh, as opposed to, you know, let's think really, really hard about this. Um, because that's really what we have to do because if you're not, you know, connecting to the correct, Sort of things. I mean, what do you think is going to happen? You know, magic, yo…

AI assessment note: “I often for an exercise ask people, if you couldn't do anything for the rest”

Q I do want to also, you know, mentioning that entry into the CEO role at Snowflake, this is the third rocket ship company you've been a part of, Frank. That is abnormally accurate for a hit rate. Like, no one has done that other than you. And so when I spoke to Doug Leone, he said to me, how did he do it? What enabled you to do this simply?

A Oh, you know, I got it. I don't really know. Um, it's not something that sort of puzzles me on a daily basis. It's not a question that's on my, on my radar. Obviously, like I just said, choosing elevators wisely is kind of a big deal. Um, so, you know, because there's so many things that you can't change about the, about the circumstance, right? Um, I mean, you may be, you know, a really good operator and have all these qualities, but, uh, you know, you really have to look hard at what you've got. I didn't always have that luxury. You know, when I, when I joined Data Domain, I, I had no idea what I was getting into. I mean, there was no revenue, there were no customers, there were 15 people, you know, had two good investors, which was sort of, you know, what, what inspired me. Uh, but everything else, uh, came after that was sort of a leap in the dark. Uh, there were hundreds of companies back in those days. Um, and that, that one, you know, um, I'm actually very proud of the work we collectively did there, um, because it, it became such an outlier. Of a company, but, you know, at the time, I mean, that was far from, from obvious or clear. You could argue a snowflake was already, uh, an outlier, you know, when, when I joined, it was far easier, far more obvious to, to make that determination. Um, you know, service now was not that easy a determination either. I remember. You kn…

AI assessment note: “choosing elevators wisely is kind of a big deal”

Q That narrow the focus, increase the quality. What does that mean to you, and how do you think about applying it today?

A Well, the issue of focuses is that, uh, you know, we have a tendency, uh, as, as human beings to, you know, operate a mile wide and an inch deep, and it gets worse and worse over time. We pile more and more things on and we ask people what their priority is. You know, you get like 10, you know, you might as well have none, right? We have no ability, you know, to, to really think through what, what matters, what really matters, um, and what matters not at all. Um, I often for an exercise ask people, if you couldn't do anything for the rest of the year, um, what would you do and and why? Um, I'm not asking them to drop everything. Say that if you had to pick one, what would it be and why? Now, this is a really hard question because now you got to give up everything except one thing. And, uh, people have a, have a monstrous time answering, uh, that question, but it's a super important question because that's really the high leverage. Uh, if, if you get that wrong, uh, then it's, it's the intellectual laziness that we said, well, I have five priorities. The, the, the good ones are probably in there somewhere. I hope, you know, uh, as opposed to, you know, let's think really, really hard about this. Um, because that's really what we have to do because if you're not, you know, connecting to the correct, Sort of things. I mean, what do you think is going to happen? You know, magic, yo…

AI assessment note: “I often for an exercise ask people, if you couldn't do anything for the rest”

Q You said people are trying to kill you there. I always say when it comes to competition, row your own race, keep your head down. In the book you mention competition and reference it to war. How do you approach competition today then, given the war reference?

A Well, it's really, it's really a modern, um, form of warfare business, right? Uh, and that's a good thing because, you know, I mean, people have been at war because, you know, that was the only sport that was available to them historically. Um, so now we're in business and at least that's a war where, you know, at least we don't have personal casualties. We do have, you know, companies that become casualties all the time. Uh, but we basically, we basically take that dynamic and that, that aggression that exists in people. And we have directed towards, you know, commercial, uh, pursuit, which I, I think is outstanding because it raises, you know, the, the raises everybody up, you know, prosperity in society, and it makes, makes everything work. So we, we take that, that those aggressive tendencies that exist in, in the human condition, and we focus them in a way that they actually, you know, bring a lot of benefit to society as a whole. But it, it is true. We are pursuing, uh, business because there's going to be casualties. Not personal casualties, but you know, some companies are not going to make it. Many of them are not going to make it.

AI assessment note: “it's really a modern, um, form of warfare business, right?”

Q When you, when you peel back the layers, talk to me about calibration sessions. You write about this in Amp It Up, and I love this part. How do you think about calibration sessions? What are they? How do you structure them? Who comes? Tell me more.

A Well, I mean, we do, uh, we, we don't do, uh, MBOs. For example, I've killed off MBOs in every company I've ever been in. If they had them, um, that's an easy call. I don't want people running their own show. I mean, if, if I got to pull them off a project, they start negotiating with me for relief. I mean, it's the biggest bunch of bull I've ever seen. Uh, people are not running their own show. Okay. We're, we're all part of the same show here. So, um, but we also don't do performance reviews. So there's another thing we don't do. Um, written performance reviews end up being used against you, you know, it's like a legal trap. So what we do instead is, um, you know, we have a quarterly, um, you know, performance compensation, uh, model, uh, if you will. And what it means is that everybody who is not in sales, because salespeople are on commissions, uh, plans, of course, but everybody who is not in sales gets a conversation, a money conversation and a performance conversation every single quarter. And the way we do it is, uh, you know, the company first needs to earn the, the bonus money. So we have the company goals. They get communicated, communicated. Everybody knows what they are. And based on our performance there, we fund The, the bonus pool for the entire company. Then, We take that money, and we start allocating it to the management ranks. These managers gets their amoun…

AI assessment note: “That's the calibration process. And what we're asking for is a bell distribute, bell curve distribution.”

Q What three traits would you most like your children to adopt?

A Um, well, courage would be, would be number one. Um, you know, because that's, it's very hard to, to live, uh, without it, and not many people have it, again, because they don't think about it, and they, they just sort of reflexively, you know, behave, because we all do that as, as humans. The, the second thing is, and I, I like this in, in everybody, is a, is a measure of malcontent. You know, people that, Are not satisfied, uh, with the status quo just because they always have this, this need and they always see the variance between what is and what could be. I mean, that's essentially the description of drive, ok? Drive comes from somewhere and it comes from the, the gap that exists between the status quo and, and what could, in other words, you know, it's a reason to get out of bed in the morning. You know, um, I sometimes get asked the question, You know, what, what kind of people are you trying to hire employees? Ask that question. What kind of people are we looking for? I'm looking for mal-adjusted people. People will have a chip on their shoulder. People will have something to prove. Versus people that, you know, they are so well balanced, they have to think about a reason to get out of bed. You know, I mean, so we, we like the people that have that high variance, you know, between where they are and where they, where they need to be. And, uh, that, that propulsion and …

AI assessment note: “well, courage would be, would be number one. Um, you know... The second thing is”