The Exchanges

Q is, should one step back and appreciate the achievement of that goal as a leader and as a team? Or someone said to me that, as you know, that just encourages apathy, and you've got to continuously drive, drive for the next goal. How do you think about stepping back Like appreciating that you just signed the biggest enterprise contract InVision's ever had and enjoying that moment. Is that important?

A I have been traditionally fantastically poor at that. I had a mentor of mine, a guy named Larry, who gave me some pointed advice. I would say pretty powerfully delivered. I want to say this is probably like 12 years ago, 13 years ago. And it is, I can't say that it changed me overnight, but I can tell you that it's a thought that I go back to as often as possible. And this is like In his office, young guy, new in my career, looking to him for advice and for shaping, and I went into his office and said, hey, big news. I just closed this big consulting agreement. It was definitely not a million dollars. It was, you know, probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, but it was a lot for me then. I'm so excited to get this work done, and hey, I'm working on this new deal, and what do you think about this? So I just moved from like one topic to the next. He said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. You're racing. I said, what do you mean? He goes, you just had a moment that was important. This is a big thing. Your career has hit an inflection point. Hundreds of thousands. What was the biggest deal you've closed before then? 50,000 dollars. You just closed a 200,000 dollar deal. Stop. If you don't stop and appreciate the good things you have, you don't deserve them. It was just like, he just looked at me. He was, he was, I want you to know something. It's this, I make it so…

AI assessment note: “If you don't stop and appreciate the good things you have, you don't deserve them.”

Q I would love to kick off there with a little bit about you, though. So how did you make your way into the world of startups, and come to fundamentally change the way we think about design within vision? What was that aha moment?

A Well, I, I definitely didn't intend to, that's for sure. There is no visionary story where I woke up in the middle of the night in a cold Sweat with an idea that I just had to see happen in the world, and then through a montage, a fast-forward montage, passionately spent all night writing code on a black-and-white screen. That montage didn't exist. I ran an agency here in New York building digital products for other people, additional kind of digital agency, you know, early in the digital agency world, probably, but the problem we were looking to solve was the problem that we had in the company with no intent whatsoever to turn this into a commercial product. In fact, I'll argue we went as far as to kind of hope That no one would ever find out, right, about this thing called Envision that we use as our unfair advantage, our competitive advantage to the agency. You know, what if we, you know, the basic idea was, hey, what if instead of going through change orders and writing up these requirements documents and going to the gatekeepers of project management on our client side, what if we could just start designing, start creating user experiences, put those things in front of the breadth and diversity of all the different stakeholders and on the client side, and be iterative about this entire process. Try to get on their side and build better product.

AI assessment note: “problem we were looking to solve was the problem that we had in the company”

Q is, should one step back and appreciate the achievement of that goal as a leader and as a team? Or someone said to me that, as you know, that just encourages apathy, and you've got to continuously drive, drive for the next goal. How do you think about stepping back Like appreciating that you just signed the biggest enterprise contract InVision's ever had and enjoying that moment. Is that important?

A I have been traditionally fantastically poor at that. I had a mentor of mine, a guy named Larry, who gave me some pointed advice. I would say pretty powerfully delivered. I want to say this is probably like 12 years ago, 13 years ago. And it is, I can't say that it changed me overnight, but I can tell you that it's a thought that I go back to as often as possible. And this is like In his office, young guy, new in my career, looking to him for advice and for shaping, and I went into his office and said, hey, big news. I just closed this big consulting agreement. It was definitely not a million dollars. It was, you know, probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, but it was a lot for me then. I'm so excited to get this work done, and hey, I'm working on this new deal, and what do you think about this? So I just moved from like one topic to the next. He said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. You're racing. I said, what do you mean? He goes, you just had a moment that was important. This is a big thing. Your career has hit an inflection point. Hundreds of thousands. What was the biggest deal you've closed before then? 50,000 dollars. You just closed a 200,000 dollar deal. Stop. If you don't stop and appreciate the good things you have, you don't deserve them. It was just like, he just looked at me. He was, he was, I want you to know something. It's this, I make it so…

AI assessment note: “If you don't stop and appreciate the good things you have, you don't deserve them.”

Q I do have to also, Clark, that you said about it not being a desired company with the first InVision product. When did that change, and when did you flip the switch and go, actually, we should productize this, and this should be our company?

A Well, like any true visionary, of course, someone else had the idea, and I said, sure, why not? Uh, you know, in the agency, we had a guy who was just like, I think it was just a developer, and he said, hey, this is a really good thing that we're using. This actually makes my life so much better. What if we turn this into a SaaS product? Now, here, I'm going to give you some context. This is like 10 years ago. I had no idea what the heck a SaaS product was. I mean, I kind of sort of knew, like, oh, you mean like Basecamp? It was not a foregone conclusion than any calculator app that you created, you turn it into a SaaS product and charge 15 bucks a month for. That world of everything is a SaaS product is, you know, still pre-emergent. So the idea of, hey, why don't we take this thing that we're using eternally and make this a product that other people can use, it was a leap of faith. I said, sure. Sure. And we took a week or so, put a billing system around it, and launched it to its own URL, because before that, it had just been like an internal thing. Took a couple weeks to kind of build some infrastructure around it, and we launched it. And with the hope that maybe there were other agencies that worked a little bit like we did, and had the same challenge of customer client communications, and wanted to, you know, focus on user experience first, and maybe there were a few nuts…

AI assessment note: “he said, hey, this is a really good thing... What if we turn this into a SaaS product?”

Q What's the kind of journey from taking one of those unformed opinions or ideas that you have and note down, what's the journey from that to really interacting with it in the real world, implementing it in the real world? How do you think about From paper to life, um, kind of the steps in between.

A Well, so the hope is that everything goes from the unformed gut feelings, then moves into a task at some point, a task or a self-reflection or, or, you know, or some supportive principles. So I have a different list. It's not making sound like I'm not here, right? I have a different list of my own personal convictions and personal principles. We have company principles that govern the way we treat each other and cultural values of the business. And I have my own personal principles. And I think it's important to have that framework as kind of a steady, objective, Measure. I look to these unformed gut feelings and saying, hey, what principle does this relate to? Is this principle three have conflict with grace and love early, right? And I'm just giving you the approximation. That's, you know, the pseudo version of that. Is that what this is about? Is that what this needed in the moment? Is that what could solve this problem? Is that, is that actually the right remediation for this gut feeling? And then what do I do about it? How do I turn that into a task? Because ultimately you want things to turn into actions. You want to go from your heart to your head, to your hands. Ultimately, in that order, how do I turn that into a thing that I can do with my hands? Have a conversation with so-and-so about such-and-such on Tuesday at three o'clock. Let's get that scheduled.

AI assessment note: “You want to go from your heart to your head, to your hands.”

Q You mentioned your wife there, and actually, I heard from Vast at Excel about the incredible family and community man you are, as well as the CEO. Can I ask, what kind of Tips, and how do you think about finding that fit between home and work, and finding that right balance? How do you think about that?

A So I think about, I think that it has to be very binary. There's two different modes. You have work-life integration, and you have work-life, let's call them, uh, separations. So I try to exercise both of them, because I think one or the other isn't enough. An example, I work from home most of the time. You probably know this. Envision is a largely remote company. That obviously affords us Unfair advantage in the ability to integrate our work and personal lives. So I use that as a platform for experimenting with different ways to create, you know, integrated satisfaction in both. One of those experiments that ended up being a big success that I try to do as often as possible is something I call date days. Harry, are you married?

AI assessment note: “One of those experiments that ended up being a big success... is something I call date days.”

Q I do have to also, Clark, that you said about it not being a desired company with the first InVision product. When did that change, and when did you flip the switch and go, actually, we should productize this, and this should be our company?

A Well, like any true visionary, of course, someone else had the idea, and I said, sure, why not? Uh, you know, in the agency, we had a guy who was just like, I think it was just a developer, and he said, hey, this is a really good thing that we're using. This actually makes my life so much better. What if we turn this into a SaaS product? Now, here, I'm going to give you some context. This is like 10 years ago. I had no idea what the heck a SaaS product was. I mean, I kind of sort of knew, like, oh, you mean like Basecamp? It was not a foregone conclusion than any calculator app that you created, you turn it into a SaaS product and charge 15 bucks a month for. That world of everything is a SaaS product is, you know, still pre-emergent. So the idea of, hey, why don't we take this thing that we're using eternally and make this a product that other people can use, it was a leap of faith. I said, sure. Sure. And we took a week or so, put a billing system around it, and launched it to its own URL, because before that, it had just been like an internal thing. Took a couple weeks to kind of build some infrastructure around it, and we launched it. And with the hope that maybe there were other agencies that worked a little bit like we did, and had the same challenge of customer client communications, and wanted to, you know, focus on user experience first, and maybe there were a few nuts…

AI assessment note: “someone else had the idea, and I said, sure, why not?”

Q Is there anything you can do to make it awesome? I know like GitLab or do like a 500 dollar gift card to make that personal space super nice with a desk or a nice lamp or whatever it is. Is there anything little that you can do to move the needle?

A 500 dollar lamps seem like expensive lamps, but we do the same thing. We also give 500 dollars. So what we do is, so we realize that people need to get together every now and then. So once a year, we have a massive global all hands. Last year was in Phoenix, Arizona. The year before that, we were in L.A., All people in the entire company, all in one place, having a good, good time together. We don't use our in-person time. This is really important. I think different. We don't use in-person time to get work done. We use in-person time to get rallied around the vision and to connect as people, as humans, as a culture personally, and not for work, right? So people have to kind of time together just, just to socialize and build that model of each other in their minds so that we can go back to the internet and They go back to the online space where the real work happens. That model that we have in our brain of the other people that we work with becomes more refined, more personal, more intimate.

AI assessment note: “we do the same thing. We also give 500 dollars.”

Q I would love to kick off there with a little bit about you, though. So how did you make your way into the world of startups, and come to fundamentally change the way we think about design within vision? What was that aha moment?

A Well, I, I definitely didn't intend to, that's for sure. There is no visionary story where I woke up in the middle of the night in a cold Sweat with an idea that I just had to see happen in the world, and then through a montage, a fast-forward montage, passionately spent all night writing code on a black-and-white screen. That montage didn't exist. I ran an agency here in New York building digital products for other people, additional kind of digital agency, you know, early in the digital agency world, probably, but the problem we were looking to solve was the problem that we had in the company with no intent whatsoever to turn this into a commercial product. In fact, I'll argue we went as far as to kind of hope That no one would ever find out, right, about this thing called Envision that we use as our unfair advantage, our competitive advantage to the agency. You know, what if we, you know, the basic idea was, hey, what if instead of going through change orders and writing up these requirements documents and going to the gatekeepers of project management on our client side, what if we could just start designing, start creating user experiences, put those things in front of the breadth and diversity of all the different stakeholders and on the client side, and be iterative about this entire process. Try to get on their side and build better product.

AI assessment note: “I ran an agency here in New York building digital products for other people”

Q What's the kind of journey from taking one of those unformed opinions or ideas that you have and note down, what's the journey from that to really interacting with it in the real world, implementing it in the real world? How do you think about From paper to life, um, kind of the steps in between.

A Well, so the hope is that everything goes from the unformed gut feelings, then moves into a task at some point, a task or a self-reflection or, or, you know, or some supportive principles. So I have a different list. It's not making sound like I'm not here, right? I have a different list of my own personal convictions and personal principles. We have company principles that govern the way we treat each other and cultural values of the business. And I have my own personal principles. And I think it's important to have that framework as kind of a steady, objective, Measure. I look to these unformed gut feelings and saying, hey, what principle does this relate to? Is this principle three have conflict with grace and love early, right? And I'm just giving you the approximation. That's, you know, the pseudo version of that. Is that what this is about? Is that what this needed in the moment? Is that what could solve this problem? Is that, is that actually the right remediation for this gut feeling? And then what do I do about it? How do I turn that into a task? Because ultimately you want things to turn into actions. You want to go from your heart to your head, to your hands. Ultimately, in that order, how do I turn that into a thing that I can do with my hands? Have a conversation with so-and-so about such-and-such on Tuesday at three o'clock. Let's get that scheduled.

AI assessment note: “You want to go from your heart to your head, to your hands.”

Q You mentioned your wife there, and actually, I heard from Vast at Excel about the incredible family and community man you are, as well as the CEO. Can I ask, what kind of Tips, and how do you think about finding that fit between home and work, and finding that right balance? How do you think about that?

A So I think about, I think that it has to be very binary. There's two different modes. You have work-life integration, and you have work-life, let's call them, uh, separations. So I try to exercise both of them, because I think one or the other isn't enough. An example, I work from home most of the time. You probably know this. Envision is a largely remote company. That obviously affords us Unfair advantage in the ability to integrate our work and personal lives. So I use that as a platform for experimenting with different ways to create, you know, integrated satisfaction in both. One of those experiments that ended up being a big success that I try to do as often as possible is something I call date days. Harry, are you married?

AI assessment note: “I think that it has to be very binary. There's two different modes.”

Q Totally get you. I was looking at investing in a company recently in the design space, and they had a remote culture. They wanted to sell to large enterprises, and I said, I feel really uncomfortable with enterprise sales and marketing remote. Was I wrong?

A Yes, it works. I mean, there's an idea. We have these little allegories in our mind of how communication spreads at the water cooler. There's people just milling around, and by milling around and being next to each other, all the information they have in their brains is kind of just floating through the air and transferring psychically, and that's just obviously not the way it works. If you don't have deliberate systems to ensure that people are aligned to make sure that information is flowing to the right people at the right time and early and often, if you don't have deliberate systems that make that happen, it will not happen, especially in a 900 person company. If you imagine what 900 people look like in an office, it's not one floor, I can tell you that. And there is no one gigantic wall-less office, even the size of an airplane hangar, that can possibly connect those people together through physical proximity alone. So you have to have systems, you have to have technology systems, you have to have processes in the form of stand-up meetings, and update meetings, and strategic alignment meetings. You have to do this super deliberately. Every company does, even those that are offline. Now, those that are very small can operate in semi-communal, hey, we're all here hanging out by the water cooler, and let's just have frequent chats. But at scale, you need practices, Process a…

AI assessment note: “Yes, it works. I mean, there's an idea.”

Q do have to also, because speaking about the centrality of customer experience there, where we are in the crested of the wave, and the leadership that's been seen through your guidance of Envision, I do have to ask you, there's actually a question from Amish at Firstmark, and he said, how would you describe your personal growth as a CEO? And were there any, like, inflection points in your learnings?

A Yes. If I were to turn that, it's, by the way, when I get the few opportunities I get to talk to young people and they say, what's the biggest mistake you ever made? What's the biggest success you've ever had? I tell them when you start emphasizing your mistakes or emphasizing your successes, you don't recognize how many of them there are in a given week. I avoid that kind of cognitive model of the big moment where I had this crazy unlock. And I realized like enlightenment is a daily task. Awareness is a moment to moment obligation and opportunity. So I think the big change in In thinking happened a couple years ago when I recognized kind of a pretty simple idea. The problems you see in the world, especially the world around you, the world that you affect, the outfit of your experience, right, as reflected by the organization that kind of emerges from you as a leader, the problems you see there can often be traced back if you have enough patience, if you're honest and humble enough to some fundamental character flaw that you have. Like, hey, maybe you had somebody in seat longer than you should have. Why? Five whys. You're familiar with five whys. You can Google that, right? It's not something I learned from Joel Spolsky, by the way, many years ago. Five whys down to the self. That last why is what is it inside of me that allowed that to happen or didn't stop it from happening …

AI assessment note: “big change in In thinking happened a couple years ago when I recognized kind of a pretty simple idea.”

Q Totally get you. I was looking at investing in a company recently in the design space, and they had a remote culture. They wanted to sell to large enterprises, and I said, I feel really uncomfortable with enterprise sales and marketing remote. Was I wrong?

A Yes, it works. I mean, there's an idea. We have these little allegories in our mind of how communication spreads at the water cooler. There's people just milling around, and by milling around and being next to each other, all the information they have in their brains is kind of just floating through the air and transferring psychically, and that's just obviously not the way it works. If you don't have deliberate systems to ensure that people are aligned to make sure that information is flowing to the right people at the right time and early and often, if you don't have deliberate systems that make that happen, it will not happen, especially in a 900 person company. If you imagine what 900 people look like in an office, it's not one floor, I can tell you that. And there is no one gigantic wall-less office, even the size of an airplane hangar, that can possibly connect those people together through physical proximity alone. So you have to have systems, you have to have technology systems, you have to have processes in the form of stand-up meetings, and update meetings, and strategic alignment meetings. You have to do this super deliberately. Every company does, even those that are offline. Now, those that are very small can operate in semi-communal, hey, we're all here hanging out by the water cooler, and let's just have frequent chats. But at scale, you need practices, Process a…

AI assessment note: “Yes, it works.”

Q do have to also, because speaking about the centrality of customer experience there, where we are in the crested of the wave, and the leadership that's been seen through your guidance of Envision, I do have to ask you, there's actually a question from Amish at Firstmark, and he said, how would you describe your personal growth as a CEO? And were there any, like, inflection points in your learnings?

A Yes. If I were to turn that, it's, by the way, when I get the few opportunities I get to talk to young people and they say, what's the biggest mistake you ever made? What's the biggest success you've ever had? I tell them when you start emphasizing your mistakes or emphasizing your successes, you don't recognize how many of them there are in a given week. I avoid that kind of cognitive model of the big moment where I had this crazy unlock. And I realized like enlightenment is a daily task. Awareness is a moment to moment obligation and opportunity. So I think the big change in In thinking happened a couple years ago when I recognized kind of a pretty simple idea. The problems you see in the world, especially the world around you, the world that you affect, the outfit of your experience, right, as reflected by the organization that kind of emerges from you as a leader, the problems you see there can often be traced back if you have enough patience, if you're honest and humble enough to some fundamental character flaw that you have. Like, hey, maybe you had somebody in seat longer than you should have. Why? Five whys. You're familiar with five whys. You can Google that, right? It's not something I learned from Joel Spolsky, by the way, many years ago. Five whys down to the self. That last why is what is it inside of me that allowed that to happen or didn't stop it from happening …

AI assessment note: “the big change in In thinking happened a couple years ago when I recognized”

Q investor, fearful of market timing, taking market timing risk where you have to carry companies for years and years longer than one anticipated. And so reducing market timing risk is always big in my mind. Would you say that's a flaw of mine? And actually you're never going to ride that Big crest of the wave. If you only want to sit at the top and reduce market timing risk.

A Well, the question is how long is this wave going to take to emerge? It's a question of timing and capital and what you're putting the capital into and how big the wave will eventually be. That's the somewhat complex math of investment strategy. And we see companies every day. I think I just saw one today, not to be mentioned, but like that is losing a hundred million dollars in a quarter. And you'd be like, wow, that's a, how could that be? And you know, you'll question whether or not that's a legitimate business, but there are many businesses that are worth Many decabillions that at some point lost a hundred million dollars in a quarter. The question is how big of a change are they chasing in the world, right? That's the difference, right? It's not the change you make in the world. It's the change you chase in the world. You're putting money to try to change a market, to change the world. Then I think that's going to ultimately be calories that are difficult to create a return on. If you are harvesting a change that's emerging and you know that that emerging change is something that has A very significant economic impact to a very large number and large and very great diversity of companies or people. You can afford to put a massive amount of capital into a long-term strategy.

AI assessment note: “It's a question of timing and capital and what you're putting the capital into”

Q Penultimate one. I always kind of look to learn, and there's nothing wrong with me learning for the future here. Did having kids change How you think about operating and your work environment, and if so, how?

A Having kids changes the full stack of your internal value system indefinitely and profoundly in a way that you can never, ever, couldn't possibly explain to somebody who doesn't have kids, right? The minute you have your first child, all of your entire value system becomes inverted. I can't explain that any more than that. It's the kind of thing you'll never be able to convince somebody who doesn't have one. It's only abstract. It's something that has to be experienced to understand. It's like being hungry. I don't know whether you're hungry or full right now, But if you were super full, like coming out of a massive feast, and I said, remember what it's like to be hungry? You're like, what? I don't. I don't know what it's like to be hungry, nor do I know what it's like to be full when I'm hungry. This is just one of those visceral experiences that just are all pervasive to an even more profound degree. So yes, it changes everything. Part of being remote, obviously, is just, you know, having proximity to these people who you care about more than anything in the entire world. I like the idea of being able to walk downstairs at four p.m. when my son comes home from camp. Now he's in summer camp, summer day camp. Go see him, hug him, get connected with family, and then go back to work. It's definitely a way to recharge my batteries that sustains my happiness on a daily basis.

AI assessment note: “Part of being remote, obviously, is just, you know, having proximity to these people”

Q Is there anything you can do to make it awesome? I know like GitLab or do like a 500 dollar gift card to make that personal space super nice with a desk or a nice lamp or whatever it is. Is there anything little that you can do to move the needle?

A 500 dollar lamps seem like expensive lamps, but we do the same thing. We also give 500 dollars. So what we do is, so we realize that people need to get together every now and then. So once a year, we have a massive global all hands. Last year was in Phoenix, Arizona. The year before that, we were in L.A., All people in the entire company, all in one place, having a good, good time together. We don't use our in-person time. This is really important. I think different. We don't use in-person time to get work done. We use in-person time to get rallied around the vision and to connect as people, as humans, as a culture personally, and not for work, right? So people have to kind of time together just, just to socialize and build that model of each other in their minds so that we can go back to the internet and They go back to the online space where the real work happens. That model that we have in our brain of the other people that we work with becomes more refined, more personal, more intimate.

AI assessment note: “we do the same thing. We also give 500 dollars. So what we do is”

Q from day one, and I had Mathilde call in up front on the show recently, and she said, ah, it's kind of BS, actually. Organizational discipline's far more important. I'm intrigued, given kind of your background and how InVision came to be a product, how do you think about this need for the unwavering vision and mission when you think about new products today, and also Invest as an angel?

A Everything that people think About being an entrepreneur and creating startups. Most of the questions I get have some sort of like from young people who are hoping to become what, you know, are crazy enough to want to do this, have a false premise. And I think the fundamental false premise is when did you want to become an entrepreneur? When did you decide you wanted to start a 900 person company? And there is no end to that. At no point did I ever say I want to be an entrepreneur. Never. I don't know if that's unfashionable to say that. I had an idea that I was excited about seeing real and something that I could actually use and touch and feel and just making something from nothing in the world. Like that's definitely a deep and innate passion for me, right? Just bringing, you know, giving birth to a thing in the world. I had that. And by the way, that's why I ran an agency because I got to do that promiscuously for, you know, for our clients. You know, I got to do that for a lot of different clients at once. That was fun. Right. And beyond that, like I had a desire to put something out into the world and see if it could be helpful to other people. That was true, and I had, you know, if there was a vision, if there's something with the word vision in it, I did have a vision for how the world was changing in a way that I could participate.

AI assessment note: “if there was a vision... I did have a vision for how the world was changing”

Q from day one, and I had Mathilde call in up front on the show recently, and she said, ah, it's kind of BS, actually. Organizational discipline's far more important. I'm intrigued, given kind of your background and how InVision came to be a product, how do you think about this need for the unwavering vision and mission when you think about new products today, and also Invest as an angel?

A Everything that people think About being an entrepreneur and creating startups. Most of the questions I get have some sort of like from young people who are hoping to become what, you know, are crazy enough to want to do this, have a false premise. And I think the fundamental false premise is when did you want to become an entrepreneur? When did you decide you wanted to start a 900 person company? And there is no end to that. At no point did I ever say I want to be an entrepreneur. Never. I don't know if that's unfashionable to say that. I had an idea that I was excited about seeing real and something that I could actually use and touch and feel and just making something from nothing in the world. Like that's definitely a deep and innate passion for me, right? Just bringing, you know, giving birth to a thing in the world. I had that. And by the way, that's why I ran an agency because I got to do that promiscuously for, you know, for our clients. You know, I got to do that for a lot of different clients at once. That was fun. Right. And beyond that, like I had a desire to put something out into the world and see if it could be helpful to other people. That was true, and I had, you know, if there was a vision, if there's something with the word vision in it, I did have a vision for how the world was changing in a way that I could participate.

AI assessment note: “At no point did I ever say I want to be an entrepreneur.”

Q investor, fearful of market timing, taking market timing risk where you have to carry companies for years and years longer than one anticipated. And so reducing market timing risk is always big in my mind. Would you say that's a flaw of mine? And actually you're never going to ride that Big crest of the wave. If you only want to sit at the top and reduce market timing risk.

A Well, the question is how long is this wave going to take to emerge? It's a question of timing and capital and what you're putting the capital into and how big the wave will eventually be. That's the somewhat complex math of investment strategy. And we see companies every day. I think I just saw one today, not to be mentioned, but like that is losing a hundred million dollars in a quarter. And you'd be like, wow, that's a, how could that be? And you know, you'll question whether or not that's a legitimate business, but there are many businesses that are worth Many decabillions that at some point lost a hundred million dollars in a quarter. The question is how big of a change are they chasing in the world, right? That's the difference, right? It's not the change you make in the world. It's the change you chase in the world. You're putting money to try to change a market, to change the world. Then I think that's going to ultimately be calories that are difficult to create a return on. If you are harvesting a change that's emerging and you know that that emerging change is something that has A very significant economic impact to a very large number and large and very great diversity of companies or people. You can afford to put a massive amount of capital into a long-term strategy.

AI assessment note: “That's the somewhat complex math of investment strategy.”

Q there. I guess my question is, and I hope it's not too honest, but it's like when you're a category leader like you are today with Envision, and we have the capital supplies that we have, does one need to think about capital efficiency like they maybe did before? And how do you think about capital efficiency given the crest of the wave and maybe where you think we're at?

A So you have to understand where you have to put capital efficiency into context, right? When you have a very mature market, there are a bunch of different SAS metrics that you're paying attention to and rules of X, right? And magic numbers. And these things are super duper relevant and important when you're dealing with a developed market, because, you know, there's a lot of comps and a lot of data to support where you should be and how efficient you should be. When you're dealing with, when you're riding the awareness curve where this is really important, but again, this is the important, this is the arbitrage that you're playing. This is so much more important than people recognize or than businesses recognize. This has so much greater an impact than people are understand and they don't know how to invest here. And I mean, that's our story. You know, screen is the most important place in the world or has become many ways the most important place in the world with the greatest impact. Every company in the world is basically re-imagining itself for a screen first customer for a screen centric customer experience. And at the end of the day, and this is like super pedestrian way to think about it, The best customer experience in every category wins. We're all pointing and grunting at the little piece of glass in our pocket with our thumb, and we're voting on the little chads, rig…

AI assessment note: “screen is the most important place in the world or has become”

Q there. I guess my question is, and I hope it's not too honest, but it's like when you're a category leader like you are today with Envision, and we have the capital supplies that we have, does one need to think about capital efficiency like they maybe did before? And how do you think about capital efficiency given the crest of the wave and maybe where you think we're at?

A So you have to understand where you have to put capital efficiency into context, right? When you have a very mature market, there are a bunch of different SAS metrics that you're paying attention to and rules of X, right? And magic numbers. And these things are super duper relevant and important when you're dealing with a developed market, because, you know, there's a lot of comps and a lot of data to support where you should be and how efficient you should be. When you're dealing with, when you're riding the awareness curve where this is really important, but again, this is the important, this is the arbitrage that you're playing. This is so much more important than people recognize or than businesses recognize. This has so much greater an impact than people are understand and they don't know how to invest here. And I mean, that's our story. You know, screen is the most important place in the world or has become many ways the most important place in the world with the greatest impact. Every company in the world is basically re-imagining itself for a screen first customer for a screen centric customer experience. And at the end of the day, and this is like super pedestrian way to think about it, The best customer experience in every category wins. We're all pointing and grunting at the little piece of glass in our pocket with our thumb, and we're voting on the little chads, rig…

AI assessment note: “So you have to understand where you have to put capital efficiency into context”